i think he knows that. he's talking about cold steeping as appose to adding to the mash. i don't see anywhere in that quote that he says he would otherwise steep the grains.
Cold steep dark grains?
- Thread starter robertjohnson
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
Shawn Hargreaves
Well-Known Member
Enzyme activity is irrelevant when dealing with roasted barley or chocolate malt, because there are no enzymes in these malts in the first place. They provide a range of substances that are soluble in wort, mostly various forms of caramelized sugar, but the starch to sugar conversion happened long ago during the malting process, so there is nothing left for enzymes to do in the mash (not to mention no enzymes to do it).
Regardless of whether you mash or steep such grains, this is simply a matter of getting their sugars into solution. Sugars dissolve more easily at higher temperatures, therefore efficiency will certainly be affected, but it is absolutely possible to dissolve a significant amount of sugar into room temperature water.
Things would be entirely different if we were talking about anything other than crystal or roasted malts, where there were still starches in need of enzyme conversion.
THERE we go. now, is it actually contributing fermentable sugars or is it simply adding gravity?
Shawn Hargreaves
Well-Known Member
Both.
Contrary to popular opinion, crystal malts actually contribute a significant amount of fermentables. They just contain a higher proportion of unfermentable sugars compared to most other malts, so people tend to focus on the impact of that (sweetness, body, etc) and forget that they are also getting plenty of fermentables at the same time.
Roasted grains provide way less fermentables than crystal, but still greater than zero.
yes, but in percentage of gravity how much is actually fermentable? i can't imagine there is much after the process it goes through.
i've been searching on my breaks and couldn't really find the correct information on how much FERMENTABLE sugar specific roasted malts add.
i've been searching on my breaks and couldn't really find the correct information on how much FERMENTABLE sugar specific roasted malts add.
Shawn Hargreaves
Well-Known Member
According to BeerSmith:
Black malt = 74% fermentable
Chocolate = 71% fermentable
Crystal 40 = 73% fermentable
Crystal 120 = 72% fermentable
I'm not sure how much I really believe that though. It does a pretty good job with the calculations for mashing base grains, but who knows where they got the data for these steeping malts from?
It seems particularly suspicious that when I set up a recipe containing nothing but 5 pounds of crystal, I get radically different OG and FG estimates depending on whether I set it to extract + steeping grains or all grain mode. The OG to FG ratio remains the same, but both estimates are way lower in extract mode. I'd expect this to be a little lower, but for nothing but crystal the difference should be maybe 10%, not 80% like BeerSmith gives me. Which makes me think it doesn't really understand about steeping grains.
Black malt = 74% fermentable
Chocolate = 71% fermentable
Crystal 40 = 73% fermentable
Crystal 120 = 72% fermentable
I'm not sure how much I really believe that though. It does a pretty good job with the calculations for mashing base grains, but who knows where they got the data for these steeping malts from?
It seems particularly suspicious that when I set up a recipe containing nothing but 5 pounds of crystal, I get radically different OG and FG estimates depending on whether I set it to extract + steeping grains or all grain mode. The OG to FG ratio remains the same, but both estimates are way lower in extract mode. I'd expect this to be a little lower, but for nothing but crystal the difference should be maybe 10%, not 80% like BeerSmith gives me. Which makes me think it doesn't really understand about steeping grains.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
remilard
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about weyermann carafa special, which is made in a very similar fashion to chocolate malt, with partially dehusked grain. Regular carafa is weyermann's chocolate malt, they consider it comparable. If you don't then I guess you ad weyermann have a difference of opinion.
What is your belief about the difference in production between carafa or carafa special (other than polishing) and chocolate malt from other malsters?
I read through this thread with interest. I haven't tried this myself, but I like the idea of getting the flavor without the astringency. If the concern is that you might leave behind some possibly soluble sugars by steeping cold, what would happen if you used a temperature somewhere in the middle - say 90 to 100 degrees?
remilard
Well-Known Member
Get three ounces of grain and try all three. Cold for a while, warm for a shorter period of time and hot as per usual. You should be able to compare extraction and flavor pretty easily.
The problem with 100 degrees is that you probably need several hours at that temp which is like bacteria wonderland.
where are you getting your numbers? i'm looking through my beersmith grains list and it does not give me fermentability.
i'm judging by taste. admittedly, i have only used the carafa II, but i've used it alot. i thought the only difference between the carafa were color, and of course roastiness if used in large quantity.
remilard
Well-Known Member
I've never tried them side by side or subbed one for the other in a recipe (that I remember), probably worth a try.
srm775, this is going to be my last post on this 'cause you're clearly taking my statements out of context and responding with vague generalities about homebrewing. I feel like I'm watching a bad Daily Show interview...
Then you responded that you do get extract efficiency from cold steeping and I showed you the enzyme activity chart which clearly shows you don't. The bottom line is you get < 1% efficiency from cold steeping malted barley. This is the tradeoff of which I spoke; not some vague generality about homebrewing.
Moving on...
Agree, I feel as though you keep making one statement regarding cold-steeping (without ever having even tried it) and I'm making another. So, let's put it this way:
How much fermentable sugar do you think you're going to get from a chocolate malt, roasted barley or black patent? Very little, because there is very little fermentable sugar in those dark malts. That is my point. Therefore, you loss in efficiency is negligable. That is my point.
Now, that being said, would I use cold steeping for a porter or mild brown that has just a .5 lbs of roasted barley? No, this is typically a brewing method used for bigger stouts with a significant grain bill of chocolate malt, roasted barley and/or black patent.
I'll just add a comment in reference to roasted barley only. Since this grain is not malted prior to roasting, it has very little soluble sugar in it and the starch is non-soluble and in a form that is notreadily broken down by the various malt enzymes. If you try an iodine test on un-malated barley that is crushed and then extracted you get no reaction - I did the test. Now take that and roast it and the what is left is not going to be very convertable by enzymes in a mash.
All the roasted malts must add at least some gravity points to a finished product. Anything that is dissolved in a liquid will add gravity points. The black color of the beer is soluble (otherwise it would precipitate over time) so it must add some gravity points. I suspect though that this is negligible. There might be other compounds produced during roasting that might also contribute some gravity points, but again I doubt they are either convertable in a mash or fermentable by the yeast.
I see no reason not to cold-steep. It will just take longer to extract the flavors. Since there are no active enzymes in roasted malts, all adding heat does is to speed up the reaction. It does not do anything that wouldn't also happen at 70 F. As an analogy, imagine dissolving a lollipop in a glass of water. It will take a while at room temp, but if you add heat it will happen much quicker - but the end product is exactly the same. The trick is how long - since it is not easy to see like dissolving a lollipop. I bet one could take taste samples over time to monitor the change
All the roasted malts must add at least some gravity points to a finished product. Anything that is dissolved in a liquid will add gravity points. The black color of the beer is soluble (otherwise it would precipitate over time) so it must add some gravity points. I suspect though that this is negligible. There might be other compounds produced during roasting that might also contribute some gravity points, but again I doubt they are either convertable in a mash or fermentable by the yeast.
I see no reason not to cold-steep. It will just take longer to extract the flavors. Since there are no active enzymes in roasted malts, all adding heat does is to speed up the reaction. It does not do anything that wouldn't also happen at 70 F. As an analogy, imagine dissolving a lollipop in a glass of water. It will take a while at room temp, but if you add heat it will happen much quicker - but the end product is exactly the same. The trick is how long - since it is not easy to see like dissolving a lollipop. I bet one could take taste samples over time to monitor the change
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
It's about gravity contribution, not just fermentable sugar. Roasted malts are loaded with sugars, most of which are unfermentable, and contain no enzymes. But, to access those sugars, you have to mash roasted malts with base grains. This step is not performed in cold steeping.
Chocolate malt has an extract potential of ~34. So does black patent malt. But, you have to mash the malt to see any of the potential. This was the message I kept repeating yesterday.
Agreed. I stated that I would be willing to try the cold steeping method for color in something like a red ale that called for a few ounces of chocolate malt. Debittered black malt is too dark, otherwise I would just use it.
As an aside, I do use cold steeping when I make coffee porters to get a really smooth coffee flavor. But, that's using coffee beans which have an extract potential of zero.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
I think the confusion is about steeping vs. mashing. If I may...
If you hot mash/steep just chocolate malt (no other grain), then you have an extract potential of zero since chocolate malt has zero enzymes.
If you hot mash/steep chocolate malt with a base grain, then the extract potential for the chocolate malt is ~34.
If you cold steep chocolate malt with or without a base grain, then the extract potential is zero because the temperature is not high enough for any starch conversion to occur, period.
Shawn Hargreaves
Well-Known Member
I just created a test recipe with nothing but 5 lb of one specialty grain, and looked at the estimated OG and FG. The ratio between these is different depending on what grain you pick, so it must be doing something grain specific in the calculation!
I'm really surprised I can find so little info about this! The malt manufacturers publish a lot of technical data about their products, but what percentage of the extract is fermentable does not appear to be part of this.
Of course it would be easy enough to do a practical experiment to find out. Just a few cups in a jamjar with some leftover yeast should be enough to get some real world measurements.
I bet we'd have to include some regular malt as well as the extract to make this really valid though. If we tried to ferment just roast or crystal malt in isolation, it's possible there could be what would normally be fermentable sugars that did not ferment due to lack of other nutrients, etc. So we'd have to boil a larger quantity of base malt, ferment some of that as a control, then add crystal, roast, etc, to other portions to see what happened to those.
i've made several dunkelweizens with carafa II and with chocolate malt using the same base recipe. distinctly different flavors. even when using 6 oz of carafa II (as appose to the usual 4 oz of chocolate i use) it gives very little flavor and it is not chocolately in the least, more roasty.
As I stated in my first post in this thread. THERE IS STARCH CONVERSION AT ROOM TEMP, though it certainly is not as fast as at std. mashing temps. If this were not the case, no barley seed would ever germinate as all of the ezymes we take advantage of in brewing are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for germination. When they produce malt, they incubate the barley at 50-70 F. I can guarantee you that starch conversion is happening during this process.
Here is the protocol for a std. commercial amylase activity assay. Incubation is at room temperature.
α-Amylase (enzymatic)
Sorry for the yelling, being a scientist, I try to keep the facts straight and prevent scientific mis-information from becoming common knowledge
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
Ha, no offense taken. I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm quite comfortable with being wrong on occasion.
Just keep in mind that roasted malts at kilned at a very high temperature and thus have no enzymes available for starch conversion.
So, I'll revise my statement to say "the starch conversion process is slow enough at room temperature to be impractical for brewing". Better?
So, I'll revise my statement to say "the starch conversion process is slow enough at room temperature to be impractical for brewing". Better?
That works......although.....if one steeped for 24 hours, I'm pretty sure there would be some conversion. I've been tempted to do an experimental brew with a mash at room temp (time still undecided) followed by what I'll call a full decocotion (boil the whole dang thing, grains and all) with hop additions, and then chill and to the carboy. Sort of like a Berliner-weisse. I'll just have to watch the souring during the mash. I might add some K-sorbate and metabisulfite (as per wine makers) to slow the lactobacillus down. Oh yeah, it would only be a 2 gal batch lest it go terribly wrong
I actually find it quite remarkable that these enzymes work at all at mashing temps. Most enzymes in animals are not very happy at all at temperatures over 110F or under 90F. They're total wusses. Now with plants, their enzymes will work from under 32F to up to 170F. That's just cool, and is part why I chose to become a plant scientist, not an animal scientist, plus I often get to eat my leftover scientific subjects!
you'll just have to try it for yourself!
Freezeblade
Well-Known Member
Dude, this whole thread is like a big shaggy dog story. I kept going for 6 pages to see who was right (what the punchline is) only to get a "well, you'll have to try it" which is the equilivent to a super lame punchline after a 30 min story-joke.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
Nice. I like dogs and I like stories...
Will cold steeping roasted grain hurt anything? Probably not, other than extract efficiency. Will it help avoid acrid roasted flavors from creeping into your brew? Maybe, maybe not. You decide!
so uh... what's the bottom line. man, i was hoping for some payoff after 6 pages.
What kind of payoff are you looking for? Try it and see. Brew two stouts side-by-side. One where you mash the dark grains and one where you cold-steep the grains and see which you like best.
Personally, for my oatmeal stouts, I prefer to cold-steep my dark grains. The flavor is much smoother and it makes a better beer, which what we're all after.
be sure to post your results. we'll never figure this out if you don't
Is there any merit to using the cold steeped infusion as an initial strike water in the mash? Another words, would the astringincy still appear by heating the infused water, or is the astringincy from heating the grains? I am curious because you might get good flavor results by converting what is extracted in the cold steep. I am wondering if the cold steep extracts anything that needs (could benifit from) conversion.
And I am also resurecting this thread
And I am also resurecting this thread
be sure to post your results. we'll never figure this out if you don't
For anyone doing research: I cold steeped 8 oz of Carafa Special III in 2 L of water over 24 hours in the fridge. The fridge cold liquid had a gravity of 1.030, which is not surprising as roasted grains don't need enzymatic activity to extract sugars as the roasting has made them accessible to be water soluble. The liquid had a slight roasty taste to it, but not much. I boiled it and added it to a Schwarzbier.
altimate_one
Active Member
I'm sure there have been a TON of experiments on this subject since the last post. I am very excited to see what the experts say now.
In addition, is it worthwhile to cold steep some (say 75%) of your roasted grain bill and then use the remaining 25% in the mash to get a more complex taste in your beer?
In addition, is it worthwhile to cold steep some (say 75%) of your roasted grain bill and then use the remaining 25% in the mash to get a more complex taste in your beer?
