Coffee on nitro

[PortaBeer]

Hey All:

Hoping I can help shed some light on this discussion with the caveat that we're still in testing. However, we've gotten some very encouraging results.

We're currently working with a coffee shop to R&D nitro cold brew for both mobile applications (they often do catering and sell at fairs/farmer's markets) and as a moveable behind-the-counter solution. This shop hasn't done nitro coffee yet, but would like to ASAP. I can't say that we've developed expertise, but I think we've found a process that that is delivering consistent quality.

Our Setup
We're using a fairly standard short-draw system (5' 3/16" ID beer line) on 100% nitrogen with a Corny keg. We chose this for two reasons: 1) the coffee shop owner did not want to alter the taste of the coffee and found that the CO2 added a bitterness that was unpleasant; and 2) we're using a small (1.5lb/6cuft) tank that easily fits into our existing PortaBeer mobile draft platform. Note that it's very difficult to get a true 75/25 mixture in a tank under 20# (I strongly suggest you test your gas if you've heard otherwise from your suppliers).

We're using cold brew coffee with no particular unique characteristics. Nothing else is being added to the coffee. We're pouring 5 gallons into each keg. Additionally, we're refrigerating the keg for approximately 24 hours after filling the kegs (roughly 34 degrees) before we're testing.

Our Results
We've successfully poured the following:

• Still iced coffee - This can be poured at 3-6 psi on pure nitrogen (or pure CO2 if the keg is going to go quickly, <8 hours). It can also be poured on high-pressure nitrogen through a stout faucet at 30+ psi, but there is no cascade/head to speak of (except for below).
• Cascade effect - We *have* been able to achieve a Guinness-like cascade with 100% nitrogen. The process is fairly simple: 1) we're pressurizing the keg to 45 psi; 2) we're shaking it for approximately two minutes while still connected to the tank at 45 psi; 3) we're pouring at 35 psi through a stout faucet anywhere from immediately following the shaking to 24 hours after shaking.

This is the result of our latest test:

We realize that there might be an allergy to the shaking method. In our research, we've found a system that will do the nitrogen infusion without shaking. However, the cost of that system ranges between $3k and $4k. We anticipate that the cost of our system will be in the $1,200-$1,400 range. The coffee shops we've spoken with have said that there is not a significant enough value difference between the shaking vs. no shaking method to justify the minimum $1,600 price difference.

The working theory we've developed is the following:

• I don't believe that there is enough CO2 in the ambient air to account for the cascade, though I easily could be underestimating how little CO2 it takes to produce the effect.
• We've not tested longevity of the cascade effect after shaking, however it seems fairly stable 24 hours later. My guess is that keeping the pressure at 45psi post-shaking makes it difficult for the little nitrogen that has been absorbed to escape.
• The taste seems to just be better on pure nitrogen. I don't tend to prefer overly-bitter or acidic coffee, so that might be a point of preference.
• I have no clue how elevation and other factors might impact things.

Again, not an expert, but we're really impressed with progress. We'll keep at it in as many environments as possible and can report back results. Feel free to reach out direct ([email protected]) if you'd like to discuss.

 

[TexasWine]

Hey All:

Hoping I can help shed some light on this discussion with the caveat that we're still in testing. However, we've gotten some very encouraging results.

We're currently working with a coffee shop to R&D nitro cold brew for both mobile applications (they often do catering and sell at fairs/farmer's markets) and as a moveable behind-the-counter solution. This shop hasn't done nitro coffee yet, but would like to ASAP. I can't say that we've developed expertise, but I think we've found a process that that is delivering consistent quality.

Our Setup
We're using a fairly standard short-draw system (5' 3/16" ID beer line) on 100% nitrogen with a Corny keg. We chose this for two reasons: 1) the coffee shop owner did not want to alter the taste of the coffee and found that the CO2 added a bitterness that was unpleasant; and 2) we're using a small (1.5lb/6cuft) tank that easily fits into our existing PortaBeer mobile draft platform. Note that it's very difficult to get a true 75/25 mixture in a tank under 20# (I strongly suggest you test your gas if you've heard otherwise from your suppliers).

We're using cold brew coffee with no particular unique characteristics. Nothing else is being added to the coffee. We're pouring 5 gallons into each keg. Additionally, we're refrigerating the keg for approximately 24 hours after filling the kegs (roughly 34 degrees) before we're testing.

Our Results
We've successfully poured the following:

• Still iced coffee - This can be poured at 3-6 psi on pure nitrogen (or pure CO2 if the keg is going to go quickly, <8 hours). It can also be poured on high-pressure nitrogen through a stout faucet at 30+ psi, but there is no cascade/head to speak of (except for below).
• Cascade effect - We *have* been able to achieve a Guinness-like cascade with 100% nitrogen. The process is fairly simple: 1) we're pressurizing the keg to 45 psi; 2) we're shaking it for approximately two minutes while still connected to the tank at 45 psi; 3) we're pouring at 35 psi through a stout faucet anywhere from immediately following the shaking to 24 hours after shaking.

This is the result of our latest test:

We realize that there might be an allergy to the shaking method. In our research, we've found a system that will do the nitrogen infusion without shaking. However, the cost of that system ranges between $3k and $4k. We anticipate that the cost of our system will be in the $1,200-$1,400 range. The coffee shops we've spoken with have said that there is not a significant enough value difference between the shaking vs. no shaking method to justify the minimum $1,600 price difference.

The working theory we've developed is the following:

• I don't believe that there is enough CO2 in the ambient air to account for the cascade, though I easily could be underestimating how little CO2 it takes to produce the effect.
• We've not tested longevity of the cascade effect after shaking, however it seems fairly stable 24 hours later. My guess is that keeping the pressure at 45psi post-shaking makes it difficult for the little nitrogen that has been absorbed to escape.
• The taste seems to just be better on pure nitrogen. I don't tend to prefer overly-bitter or acidic coffee, so that might be a point of preference.
• I have no clue how elevation and other factors might impact things.

Again, not an expert, but we're really impressed with progress. We'll keep at it in as many environments as possible and can report back results. Feel free to reach out direct ([email protected]) if you'd like to discuss.

Might I suggest a diffusion stone instead of shaking?

http://www.morebeer.com/products/diffusion-stone-5-micron-carbonationoxygenation.html

 

[bobbytuck]

Can't this be done with a simple whipper and N20 cartridge?

Not at the same scale as a 5 or 2.5 gallon keg, but if you want coffee on nitro -- just cold brew and seal it up in a whipper. You'll get the same output with a lot less effort. And the barrier for entry is low -- just a whipper and a creamer cartridge.

I've been making cocktails this way for years. Make your Manhattans in a whipper -- and you'll never look back.

See:

http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html?p=4463.html

Awesome way to make quick cocktail bitters, too, BTW.

 

[doug293cz]

Hey All:

Hoping I can help shed some light on this discussion with the caveat that we're still in testing. However, we've gotten some very encouraging results.

We're currently working with a coffee shop to R&D nitro cold brew for both mobile applications (they often do catering and sell at fairs/farmer's markets) and as a moveable behind-the-counter solution. This shop hasn't done nitro coffee yet, but would like to ASAP. I can't say that we've developed expertise, but I think we've found a process that that is delivering consistent quality.

Our Setup
We're using a fairly standard short-draw system (5' 3/16" ID beer line) on 100% nitrogen with a Corny keg. We chose this for two reasons: 1) the coffee shop owner did not want to alter the taste of the coffee and found that the CO2 added a bitterness that was unpleasant; and 2) we're using a small (1.5lb/6cuft) tank that easily fits into our existing PortaBeer mobile draft platform. Note that it's very difficult to get a true 75/25 mixture in a tank under 20# (I strongly suggest you test your gas if you've heard otherwise from your suppliers).

We're using cold brew coffee with no particular unique characteristics. Nothing else is being added to the coffee. We're pouring 5 gallons into each keg. Additionally, we're refrigerating the keg for approximately 24 hours after filling the kegs (roughly 34 degrees) before we're testing.

Our Results
We've successfully poured the following:

• Still iced coffee - This can be poured at 3-6 psi on pure nitrogen (or pure CO2 if the keg is going to go quickly, <8 hours). It can also be poured on high-pressure nitrogen through a stout faucet at 30+ psi, but there is no cascade/head to speak of (except for below).
• Cascade effect - We *have* been able to achieve a Guinness-like cascade with 100% nitrogen. The process is fairly simple: 1) we're pressurizing the keg to 45 psi; 2) we're shaking it for approximately two minutes while still connected to the tank at 45 psi; 3) we're pouring at 35 psi through a stout faucet anywhere from immediately following the shaking to 24 hours after shaking.

This is the result of our latest test:

We realize that there might be an allergy to the shaking method. In our research, we've found a system that will do the nitrogen infusion without shaking. However, the cost of that system ranges between $3k and $4k. We anticipate that the cost of our system will be in the $1,200-$1,400 range. The coffee shops we've spoken with have said that there is not a significant enough value difference between the shaking vs. no shaking method to justify the minimum $1,600 price difference.

The working theory we've developed is the following:

• I don't believe that there is enough CO2 in the ambient air to account for the cascade, though I easily could be underestimating how little CO2 it takes to produce the effect.
• We've not tested longevity of the cascade effect after shaking, however it seems fairly stable 24 hours later. My guess is that keeping the pressure at 45psi post-shaking makes it difficult for the little nitrogen that has been absorbed to escape.
• The taste seems to just be better on pure nitrogen. I don't tend to prefer overly-bitter or acidic coffee, so that might be a point of preference.
• I have no clue how elevation and other factors might impact things.

Again, not an expert, but we're really impressed with progress. We'll keep at it in as many environments as possible and can report back results. Feel free to reach out direct ([email protected]) if you'd like to discuss.

And, what will OSHA have to say about asking employees to shake a roughly 50 lb, cold, probably wet (condensation), keg?

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Might I suggest a diffusion stone instead of shaking?

http://www.morebeer.com/products/diffusion-stone-5-micron-carbonationoxygenation.html

Some advice on using a carbonation stone in the bottom of a sealed and pressurized keg might be useful. It's not like oxygenating wort in an unsealed fermenter. Probably doesn't work if the keg is not pressurized, and then it has to stay in the keg till it kicks.

Brew on

 

[Paps]

And, what will OSHA have to say about asking employees to shake a roughly 50 lb, cold, probably wet (condensation), keg?

Brew on

Let it be known that i have a bad back.
I have a beergas/nitro set-up which i force carb beer/cider/wine with.
I shake the corny keg whilst it is hooked up to the tank.
More accurately i grab the top handle and rock it back and forth in a quik manner while it (and it's weight) rest on the ground.
The gas makes a noise as it fills the corny that i'll just call a hissing sound.
Basically you're only shaking the top or rocking it back and forth until you don't hear anymore hissing when you shake it or say **** this! my arms are tired!
Doing this isn't a danger and beleive me, i've seen plenty a workplace disregard safety in much more ways than this.

Brew on.

 

[doug293cz]

duplicate

 

[doug293cz]

Let it be known that i have a bad back.
I have a beergas/nitro set-up which i force carb beer/cider/wine with.
I shake the corny keg whilst it is hooked up to the tank.
More accurately i grab the top handle and rock it back and forth in a quik manner while it (and it's weight) rest on the ground.
The gas makes a noise as it fills the corny that i'll just call a hissing sound.
Basically you're only shaking the top or rocking it back and forth until you don't hear anymore hissing when you shake it or say **** this! my arms are tired!
Doing this isn't a danger and beleive me, i've seen plenty a workplace disregard safety in much more ways than this.

Brew on.

If that low level of agitation will work with a very low solubility gas, then no problem. Not sure if that is enough to get super saturated with N2 however.

Brew on

 

[Paps]

I find the more headspace the keg gets the more hissing / the better it works.
I agree with you in that it may not be sufficient for 100% nitro but cannot say from experience as i have a 70/30 blend and also have not done this to cold brewed coffee yet. However having recently quit drinking soda, i may do this soon to remain caffinated.

 

[TexasWine]

Some advice on using a carbonation stone in the bottom of a sealed and pressurized keg might be useful. It's not like oxygenating wort in an unsealed fermenter. Probably doesn't work if the keg is not pressurized, and then it has to stay in the keg till it kicks.

Brew on

Sorry about that. Should have elaborated that I was thinking they could use a diffusion stone in conjunction with a carbonating lid, like this one...

http://www.morebeer.com/products/carbonating-keg-lid.html

This doesn't have to stay in the keg until it kicks.

Their instructions for beer are as follows. You'd have to experiment to figure out if this worked for coffee.

1. Preboil the stone for 2–3 minutes before using. This assures you that your stone is sterile and any residual oils have been boiled off.
2. Sanitize the whole keg lid before submersing into your keg filled with beer.
3. Set your PSI on your regulator to 3–4psi and attach your gas in fitting to the body connect on the lid. Leave keg at this pressure for 1 hour.
4. Raise your pressure 2PSI per hour until you reach 10–12psi. Leave it at 10–12psi for 24 hours. Pour a pint and test the carbonation. If you think your beer needs more CO2 leave for another 4–6 hours and have another pint.
5. Remove carbonation lid after carbonation level is satisfactory. Return original keg lid for long term storage.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think in this case you could just install a stone in every keg attached to the gas in diptube and have it extend to the very bottom. Alternatively I wonder if a pinhole in the liquid diptube above the liquid level would help infuse a stream of nitrogen into the draft line. The latter is a permanent modification that may or may not work.

 

[doug293cz]

Sorry about that. Should have elaborated that I was thinking they could use a diffusion stone in conjunction with a carbonating lid, like this one...

http://www.morebeer.com/products/carbonating-keg-lid.html

This doesn't have to stay in the keg until it kicks.

Their instructions for beer are as follows. You'd have to experiment to figure out if this worked for coffee.

1. Preboil the stone for 2–3 minutes before using. This assures you that your stone is sterile and any residual oils have been boiled off.
2. Sanitize the whole keg lid before submersing into your keg filled with beer.
3. Set your PSI on your regulator to 3–4psi and attach your gas in fitting to the body connect on the lid. Leave keg at this pressure for 1 hour.
4. Raise your pressure 2PSI per hour until you reach 10–12psi. Leave it at 10–12psi for 24 hours. Pour a pint and test the carbonation. If you think your beer needs more CO2 leave for another 4–6 hours and have another pint.
5. Remove carbonation lid after carbonation level is satisfactory. Return original keg lid for long term storage.

That's a cool gadget I hadn't seen before.

CO2 in beer is pretty stable, and it doesn't take a really high CO2 partial pressure to get good levels of carbonation. N2 on the other hand is going to be way less stable in solution, and the partial pressure of N2 required to get useful amounts in solution to create bubbles is very high. So, it seems like removing the lid after "nitroing" the coffee would cause most of the benefit from using the stone to be lost, much like opening a can/bottle of nitro beer with a widget. Once you open it you can't go back.

However, it's probably worth a try since it's reasonably inexpensive.

Brew on

 

[jocamero]

Happy to report I now have nitro coffee on tap at home, with the aesthetics of the pours on par with Left Hand's Nitro Milk Stout or Guiness.

From my discussions with the local coffee roaster, their trick is to have a carbonating stone permanently installed in all their kegs. They charge / carb the kegs for about a day prior to delivery and once I connected to my 100% nitro, they suggested bleeding off the headspace of nitrogen to force a bit more nitrogen through the coffee. I did this a couple times, not certain it is necessary.

Kegerator is at 37ºF. Coffee is being poured at 42 psi (for now).

 

[jbrace1]

I have cold press coffee on tap at home as I like cold coffee conveniently available. I don't like fizzy coffee and I don't care about the 'cascade'. That said:

I use ~2 pounds of french press grind coffee in a hop bag and 2.5 gallons RO water with a pinch of salt (NaCl) and let it soak for 24 hours at room temp in a stainless kettle.

I pour the cold press coffee into a 2.5 gallon keg. I hook the keg up to beer gas (75%N/25%CO2) at 5 PSI and purge the headspace. I dispense at 5 PSI through a regular Perlick tap. Each keg lasts 1-2 weeks at our house. The coffee never gets a noticeable level of carbonation. Over 1-2 weeks the coffee never seems to get stale or bitter.

 

[Weezy]

You guys suck!!!! Now I need a nitro setup!!!

What about the idea of putting it on co2 at very low pressure for a couple days, then switch to nitro for the long term and serving?

 

[doug293cz]

I have cold press coffee on tap at home as I like cold coffee conveniently available. I don't like fizzy coffee and I don't care about the 'cascade'. That said:

I use ~2 pounds of french press grind coffee in a hop bag and 2.5 gallons RO water with a pinch of salt (NaCl) and let it soak for 24 hours at room temp in a stainless kettle.

I pour the cold press coffee into a 2.5 gallon keg. I hook the keg up to beer gas (75%N/25%CO2) at 5 PSI and purge the headspace. I dispense at 5 PSI through a regular Perlick tap. Each keg lasts 1-2 weeks at our house. The coffee never gets a noticeable level of carbonation. Over 1-2 weeks the coffee never seems to get stale or bitter.

With that gas mix and pressure, you are somewhere around 0.5 volumes (or less depending on temp) of CO2 (if you got to equilibrium, which you might not over the life of the keg.) This is less carbonation than an ale that has just finished fermenting. So not surprising you don't notice it.

Brew on

 

[jocamero]

In my experience any CO2 presents undesired carbonic acid flavors.

What about the idea of putting it on co2 at very low pressure for a couple days, then switch to nitro for the long term and serving?

 

[jocamero]

Here's a video I made of me pouring a nitro cold brew coffee.

https://youtu.be/1phxJJik1C0

 

[TexasWine]

Here's a video I made of me pouring a nitro cold brew coffee.

https://youtu.be/1phxJJik1C0

Beautiful!

 

[wilsonfisk]

I can also confirm that you can get the cascading effect with 100% nitrogen. I pressurize the keg at 40psi, agitate for 2 minutes and then fridge it at 35-45 degrees. ive tested it at 12 hours and it looks awesome.

 

[simple-stupid]

Just wanted to say how awesome this thread is, thanks for all the info guys!

 

[faceofbear]

Hey guys,

I recently just started delving into the world of nitro coffee. This thread has been an invaluable resource and now let me turn over what I have learned from putting everything into practice.

I hooked up a 2.5gal baby corny to my stout tap and filled it with delicious cold brew coffee. At the time, this thread was mostly discussing beer gas so I went to my local gas supplier and got a 75/25 blend (I tried for a 90/10, but unless you have a big account or the company advertises custom blends chances are you aren't going to get anything else)

Charged my coffee up on 35psi and left it for 12 hours. In the morning, there was minimal cascading, but the flavor was great. At about the 24 hour mark I was achieving some decent head on the coffee and the flavor was still on point. Moving into the 36-48 mark, the head continued getting better and thicker, but it was at this point the coffee started becoming carbonated. The flavor became acidic as the carbonic acid set foot into the coffee.

From my experience with beergas, it seems there is a very very small window in which you will achieve a desirable pour and flavor. After reading more of the thread as it has developed, I will definitely need to be trying 100% nitrogen

I can say with 100% conviction that a beer gas blend is not the way to go in achieving your desired creamy coffee!

Hope this helps!

 

[KegHead]

You are correct. It is not good to leave the keg pressurized with a beergas set up for an extended period of time (a day is long in this case).

If you want to set and forget, nitro is the way to go. If youll be serving a lot quickly (events, coffee shop...etc)...beergas will be optimum.

 

[ProfessorJ]

I too started this process this past month. I am completely new to beer brewing, but have been brewing kombucha and cold brew for a good while now in small batches. I decided I wanted to have of my favorite beverages on tap so I went out and put together a nice keezer system so I can have coffee, kombucha, sparkling water, and beer on tap. With that said, I really appreciate the information I've gathered in this thread as well as others to help me figure out the best way to put my cold brew on tap.

My first attempt with this is 4.5 gallons on 100% nitrogen. I originally started out with a pressure of 30 psi. It had great flavor, but very minimal head and practically no cascading. Upon recommendation from one of the previous posters I upped the psi to 45. Over the past week I have maintained flavor, started seeing cascading and have achieved a 1/4 in head. The cascading is no where near what I've seen in youtube videos from others/coffee shops, but it is noticeable.

Others have said that beer gas isn't good if the coffee isn't going to be drank within a day or so, but a few have also said that some carbonation didn't have too much of an effect. My question is what if I start out by hitting the coffee with a low psi amount of CO2 (say 5 psi) just to introduce some carbonation then put it directly on N2 at 45 psi? Would a low amount of CO2 affect the flavor that much? Would a low amount of CO2 be enough to obtain the cascading effect?

I look forward to learning more from everybody here.

Sorry for the sideways video...

View attachment coffee.MOV

 

[jocamero]

You need a carbonating stone and 100% nitrogen. Extensive discussion here:

http://blog.kegoutlet.com/serving-coffee-on-tap-co2-vs-nitrogen/

My results:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSuA6yihAFE[/ame]

 

[ProfessorJ]

That looks fantastic!