Coffee on nitro

[daveooph131]

What's the water to coffee ratio for making cold brew? I'll be putting this up soon on my tap for the summer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[FireproofInc]

This is an amazing thread, thanks to all of you who have shared some great info.

Wondering if I can pose a further question. If a person were doing this idea commercially with say a four tap tower cooler, can you use an air line splitter with nitro? All kegs would be served via a nitro tap, so even pressure across all of them.

Also, I can't imagine why their would be, but putting other ingredients such as flavored syrups or possibly cream in the keg. Any issues come to mind? I'm thinking seasonal brews like the ever popular pumpkin spice.

Given the ideal rest time, I'm wondering if smaller volume in corny kegs would be able to keep up demand and also keep the beauty of the cascade.

If I were to do this type of setup, I'm thinking of having some on the gas and some resting in the cooler. Does kegging work like that? I can pressurize the freshly brewed ones, store them to be cold, and wait some days to serve. Basically, once they are under pressure the infusion magic happens, correct?

I want to begin experimenting at home with this. A basic set would be an n2 regulator, tank for beer gas, all the lines, faucet, and cooler of some sort?

Thanks again, awesome and timely discussion for me.

 

[Coffelover]

I am looking into ordering the carbonation stone and keg lid.
We are putting our cold brew coffee on a nitro tap and only have 2 kegs to rotate through. I can't wait 24 hours for the coffee to gas. How long would it take with the carbonating stone? Could we really do it in under 5 minutes? We would have the option to be able to add gas for 5 minutes and then it would sit anywhere from 2 hours-24 hours depending on how warm the weather is and demand for iced coffee.
Also, if you have any tips on PSI to serve it at. We have a 60% Co2 40% nitro.

THANK YOU!!!

I am working with a local cafe to put coffee on tap now. Here is what you will need...assuming you have the means to brew 5 gallons of finished product:

-a kegerator, including all the lines and tap
-a bottle of beer gas (nitrogen/CO2 mix)
-a nitro tap (like a guiness tap....a regular tap will not work)
-at least one cornelius keg, plus the in/out connectors to the kegerator.

If I were a shop owner and setting it up, I would start with the ability to do two 5 gallon batches at once, so that you could have one batch sitting on gas conditioning while the other were being served. That means you would need a means of splitting the gas line into two inlets (either a simple tee, or a valve manifold with two out lines). I say this because it seems like it takes a few days on the gas before the coffee will start cascading.

I am actually heading over to check on our nitro project today. There have been some bumps in the road, but I think we have it going now. I have been out of town, so I havent checked in on the coffee, but I will post an update later...hopefully with a picture or two.

 

[TAK]

How long will coffee stay well in the fridge? Does it start to go stale, or otherwise old?

I'd consider doing this at home on my setup, but it'd take a while to go through even a gallon.

 

[Paps]

We are putting our cold brew coffee on a nitro tap and only have 2 kegs to rotate through. I can't wait 24 hours for the coffee to gas!

Get more kegs.
Serve ar 30-40 psi`ish

 

[kagythings]

Here are some photos of the final product! After a lot of playing around, we decided to go pretty low in the infusion. We got a lot cleaner and less gassy flavour this way, and the foam retention is outstanding. Hope some of you get to make it to Shanghai to try it!

I am usually in Shanghai every April. I will have to look up how far you are from where we will be. I usually find out about my Shanghai trip by the end the year. Looks great.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[kagythings]

I am usually in Shanghai every April. I will have to look up how far you are from where we will be. I usually find out about my Shanghai trip by the end the year. Looks great, would love to try the nitro coffee.

Here are some photos of the final product! After a lot of playing around, we decided to go pretty low in the infusion. We got a lot cleaner and less gassy flavour this way, and the foam retention is outstanding. Hope some of you get to make it to Shanghai to try it!

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewcoffee]

Hi everyone,

I just started on my nitrogen coffee setup and have a question regarding infusion. My current setup is a 5gal Kegco with a 20cu food grade nitrogen @35psi. I am using a Guinness Stout Beer Faucet but have not gotten much foam nor does it cascade. Should I infuse my keg with beer gas first then use nitrogen to serve? Or would I just let the nitrogen set for a few days in the keg? Thanks first.

 

[Paps]

The nitrogen in the beergas doesn't absorb well into liquids, carbon dioxide does but it takes some time for it to absorb. Fill your kegs then hit them with the beergas at 30-40 PSI. then let it sit for a few days before serving.

 

[ericfine50]

wow - that looks really cool.
Need to see there is anyone in MA doing that.

 

[brokebucket]

FYI for anybody reading this thread and interested in doing this:

-if you want the cascading effect (like Guiness), you must use beer gas. This is a nitrogen/carbon dioxide blend. The CO2 is what causes the cascade, not the nitrogen. You must also use a stout faucet with the gas pressure set high...like 35#.

-If you want to serve on tap cold-served/brewed coffee without the cascade or foam, you should use 100% Nitrogen. The Nitrogen will not be absorbed in the coffee, therefore will not cause foaming. With this setup, you can use a standard faucet, and your regulator should be set much lower....like the 8-15# range.

For both these setups, you will need a nitrogen regulator, or you will have to convert a CO2 regulator for nitrogen bottles....they are different styles of threads.

 

[jocamero]

Question to the people who have tasted the coffee on nitro: does the cold brew taste any different after it's been sitting on beer gas (70/30)?

I would presume at 30+ psi some of the (30%) CO2 would eventually absorb into the coffee. Does it become lightly carbonated? Is there a carbonic acid taste? (I've noticed this off flavor when serving plain water with beer gas even as low as 5 psi after a couple days) Does the stout faucet's restrictor plate force out the CO2 while it's being dispensed?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

 

[batchmiami]

Hey everyone, is there a final verdict with the PSI of beergas for cascading but not carbonation? We are able to get cascading after about 1 day at 30psi (38 degree cooler) of 75%nitrogen/25%co2, but the coffee tasted carbonated. We tried connecting a cold brew keg directly to beer gas without letting it rest for a day and its coming out without cascading (100% flat) but it still has a pretty acidic carbonation bite. It makes me think the PSI is too high or the blend is too co2 heavy, but according to everyone whose done it succesfully, neither the PSI or co2 ratio is too high. The only solution I can think of is blast it with some gas to carbonate and connect to straight nitrogen.

By the way...carbonated coffee tastes like shyyyte

 

[Paps]

Any time you use the beergas 70/30 mix you will end up carbing the beverage, the cascade is coming from that carb as it gets forced through that restrictor plate. Sure a lot of that carb gets knocked out of suspension but some is still definately there. You can't really have one without the other.

 

[batchmiami]

Thanks for the reply Paps, definitely agree with you...it just seems ours is getting more carbonation than other nitro cold brews I've tried. It seems like it has too many volumes of CO2 but if that was the case when we connect a keg and immediately start pouring we should be getting cascading...but we seem to be getting carbonation off-tastes without cascading leading me to believe there is something else we are doing wrong.

 

[o0jmadr0x0o]

Reading online it seems people are getting the cascade effect without using beergas and just nitrogen.

 

[Paps]

nitrogen doesn't reallyabsorb into fluids, if it did then people would probably be using it vs co2.
The cascading happens when co2 is forced out of suspension at very high pressure using the small holes of the restrictor plate making smaller bubbles.
If there is no co2 to begin with it cannot be forced out of solution, because there is none there to begin with. It would be like trying to make a rock bleed by striking it.....it just aint gunna happen.

 

[kaffehaus]

You guys are wrong about this "it won't cascade without CO2" thing.

A setup with pure nitrogen, at 45 psi and with a stout faucet, will get you the cascading effect you desire. The key is that the nitrogen has to be well-mixed with the kegged coffee —*this may be possible through conditioning, but in my cafe we simply hook up the nitro, bleed out any oxygen and then agitate the crap out of the keg. It's worth noting that the cascade is more than a visual effect —*the active nitrogen ending up in the customer's beverage promotes a cleaner aftertaste and fuller body, which is pretty crazy, since nitrogen has no flavor; this means the nitrogen is fooling your taste buds into *perceiving* the flavors differently, which is just nuts.

There is no benefit to adding CO2 (in any amount) to a keg of coffee, since oxygen (the "O") degrades the flavor of brewed coffee in short order; also, who wants fizzy coffee?

 

[batchmiami]

Thanks Kaffehaus, we're going to try to use nitrogen and a carbonating stone to see if that will do the trick. Appreciate it!

 

[o0jmadr0x0o]

FYI for anybody reading this thread and interested in doing this:

-if you want the cascading effect (like Guiness), you must use beer gas. This is a nitrogen/carbon dioxide blend. The CO2 is what causes the cascade, not the nitrogen. You must also use a stout faucet with the gas pressure set high...like 35#.

This is just not true. I have tried it with both beergas and pure nitrogen. beergas was maybe a bit stronger cascade but will ruin the coffee very very quickly.

 

[brokebucket]

There is no benefit to adding CO2 (in any amount) to a keg of coffee, since oxygen (the "O") degrades the flavor of brewed coffee in short order; also, who wants fizzy coffee?

That is a ridiculous statement. The O in CO2 does not degrade the coffee...just like it doesnt degrade the beer or soda that it is put into because it is not breaking down into carbon and oxygen inside the beverage. Where did you formulate that idea? Where did you get that co2 causes degradation?


Do it however you want, but my results were with nitrogen, which didnt cascade, then and beer gas which did...and absolutely did not cause "fizzy" beer. Just like any beer that is on nitro is not fizzy.

 

[Scoobyduu]

Hi everyone,

I'm in Australia and just charged my cornelius keg with 100% nitro at 20psi.. Should I increase that to 45psi and leave it charged for a couple of days?

What psi would you serve it through the taps at? And would you use beer gas?

 

[austinmogul]

Hi everyone,

I'm in Australia and just charged my cornelius keg with 100% nitro at 20psi.. Should I increase that to 45psi and leave it charged for a couple of days?

What psi would you serve it through the taps at? And would you use beer gas?

Hi everyone, I am in Austin, TX and have Cuvee Black and Blue on tap in a 5 gallon setup with 100% Nitrogen at around 30 PSI. Works great for me as long as you have a good stout faucet.
Anybody else use Cuvee or Stumptown cold brew kegs?

(I have done Cuvee in my office and now at home, going to definitely start looking at my homebrew options as well!)

 

[GotPushrods]

Hi everyone, I am in Austin, TX and have Cuvee Black and Blue on tap in a 5 gallon setup with 100% Nitrogen at around 30 PSI. Works great for me as long as you have a good stout faucet.

Anybody else use Cuvee or Stumptown cold brew kegs?



(I have done Cuvee in my office and now at home, going to definitely start looking at my homebrew options as well!)

Do you get any cascading bubbles and creamy head with no CO2 to come out of solution? Or are you just pouring basic iced coffee?

If so (Guinness-like), how long do you leave in on pure Nitrogen before creamy cascading happens?

 

[dmbshen41]

Id love to see this thread back open, I purchased all the necessary gear to serve nitro coffee. I choice to use beer gas because I was really wanting to have a rich creamy head. I've gotten pointers from individuals that are familiar with this process and they assured me that the coffee would last a couple weeks with no off flavor. They were wrong. Within 24 hours the coffee had a very distinct acidic taste ( im sure due to the co2). Before I go and try to trade my newly purchased beer gas tank for a 100% nitrogen tank I want to be for certain I can get the same cascading and creamy head using pure nitrogen. Has any one had a personal experience??

 

[Chronobotanist]

I've been doing this for a while on my home setup so I thought that I would add my two cents.

There are a lot of nitro threads on this site, and a lot of misinformation out there regarding the chemistry. As others have said in this thread, to my knowledge, nitrogen bubbles are not able to go "into solution" in water (nitrogen is inert and thus insoluble in H20). CO2 is soluble in water as carbonic acid, hence why it changes the flavor to be more acidic. Bubbles are all about pressure differentials. CO2 is able to go into solution at atmospheric pressure a little bit (think acid rain) but at the pressures we keg at, once the liquid is poured into atmospheric pressure, the gas will come out of solution.

The best analogy I can think of here with nitrogen is that it is like hydraulic fluid. Since it is inert, it will push the liquid without changing the taste. This is why people use nitrogen (100% blends) for wine.

Coming back to the heart of this thread, as others have stated, the reason why you need the stout faucet is to knock gases that are in solution, out of solution faster (in this case C02). The restrictor plate that is contained within the nozzle has small holes that accomplish this. The faucet will pour at beer serving pressures, but if you have stout on there, you will not see the cascading effect, you need to push the beer through at higher pressures in order for the bubbles to come out like that and not just be beer foam that dissipates quickly (I highly encourage people to experiment with different pressures on the stout faucet to get an idea about how it works)

Ok, so I think I've dealt with that part as to what I know. Now I'm gonna "armchair" it a bit to come up with a hypothesis as to why people are getting bubbles with 100% nitrogen. My guess is that in the coffee that you keg in there has some C02 in solution when you keg it (after all the water you used to brew it was not degassed), and depending on how much it got aerated when you filtered the coffee or if the water was aerated out of the faucet, you could get "some" C02 in there that you are knocking out of solution. Additionally, the keg has some headspace with air, and the high N2 pressures on the top of it might force C02 into the keg if you don't purge the headspace after you fill it.

I think the key here is that "beer gas mix" (usually 70 N/30 C02) formulations are meant for, you guessed it, beer. The basic idea there is replicating air pumped cask ale, which has low but substantial amounts of C02, where the C02 gets out of solution, but there is still a fair amount of carbonation left in your glass as you drink it (i.e the beverage is not totally still). That lets the bar keep the nitro beer on tap with the same C02 volume for a long time.

So, finally; my anecdotes and what I think will solve the problems. I too have a nitro set up and have noticed that my cold brew does get more acidic in the keg (I use a 70/30 mix), and I've kept it around for a couple of weeks in the kegerator. It does stay fresh for that long, but the taste does change. I'm not super picky and I'm not trying to sell it, so I put up with the slightly tangy flavor near the end. So, we need some CO2 in solution to get the cool cascade effect, but not enough that we change the flavor of the coffee, as people now at least don't like more acidic coffee (cold brew actually has less acid, so they might cancel out, but I digress). I think the solution is to get a better gas blend, I'm thinking somewhere in the 90/10 or 95/5 range. Its been a while for me (to do the calculations), but we should figure out a range of partial CO2 pressures that will work for the cascading effect, and what kind of mixes we need for that so that if we serve at 30-40psi, we will get that volume of C02 in solution.

Now if you're thinking of selling it, you might be able to negotiate with a gas supplier to get a custom mix. Maybe that will make the coffee thing work better. For us homebrew people, we might be in trouble. I live in Seattle, and I'm lucky here that they sell a variety of mixtures to us plebs, but that may not be the case everywhere. The best way I can think of to get around this would be to have 2 kegs (1 big like a 1/2bbl sankey, and 1 small like 3 gal corny) keep the big one on 100% nitrogen, and transfer cold brew through lines to the small one when its empty. The small one would be pushed on a 70/30 mix through a stout faucet to serve. Then you could keep coffee cascading fresh without it developing off taste.

Thanks, and I hope we can all figure out the best way to do this.

TLDR
You need CO2 for cascade effect. Having less CO2 in the beer gas mix will reduce off, acidic flavors. Setting up a two-keg system could alleviate gas mix issues if run properly.

Edit: I just checked gas solubilities

CO2 =~3.2g of CO2 gas per Kg of H20 at 40 degrees F.
N =~0.028 g of N2 per Kg H20 at 40 degrees F. So C02 is roughly 35 times more soluble in water than nitrogen.

 

[Paps]

Before I go and try to trade my newly purchased beer gas tank for a 100% nitrogen tank I want to be for certain I can get the same cascading and creamy head using pure nitrogen. Has any one had a personal experience??

Some on this thread have `claimed` that they did,
HOWEVER,
None of them have posted actual proof that they have.
No videos of cascade on nitro only.
Not even a picture of it.
As i mentioned before i beleive the cascade is caused by CO2
UNDER HIGH PRESSURE BEING FORCED THROUGH A RESTRICTOR PLATE...oops, sorry caps....anywho, without co2 i just don't think it's possible.

Your beergas tank and a 100% nitrogen tank however happen to be the same gear,meaning that you could just have it re-filled but with 100% nitro instead of beergas with no worries as the equipment is the same.(a beergas tank/regulator are the same as an all nitro one)
-cheers

 

[kaffehaus]

You guys are wrong about this "it won't cascade without CO2" thing.

A setup with pure nitrogen, at 45 psi and with a stout faucet, will get you the cascading effect you desire. The key is that the nitrogen has to be well-mixed with the kegged coffee —*this may be possible through conditioning, but in my cafe we simply hook up the nitro, bleed out any oxygen and then agitate the crap out of the keg. It's worth noting that the cascade is more than a visual effect —*the active nitrogen ending up in the customer's beverage promotes a cleaner aftertaste and fuller body, which is pretty crazy, since nitrogen has no flavor; this means the nitrogen is fooling your taste buds into *perceiving* the flavors differently, which is just nuts.

There is no benefit to adding CO2 (in any amount) to a keg of coffee, since oxygen (the "O") degrades the flavor of brewed coffee in short order; also, who wants fizzy coffee?

I'm going to retract the above statement, slightly. First off, I can assure you that the cascading effect IS POSSIBLE w/out the CO2. However, *possible* doesn't mean easy or consistent, and without a large amount of refrigeration space to store kegs of coffee and allow the nitrogen to get thoroughly mixed with the liquid (days, if not weeks), extreme agitation is the only way to do it. And, well, my arms got too tired.

CO2 does affect the flavor of the coffee, no question. (As to the poster above who balks at the notion based on beer, he does not understand the volatile nature of brewed coffee at all.) However, the high-end coffee retailers who have "nitro cold brew" on tap are generally either a.) using a CO2/Nitro mix and betting that the mouthfeel will balance out any increased acidity brought on by the CO2 changing the coffee, or b.) using pure nitrogen and losing the cascade/mouthfeel effect.

IOW, there's a compromise: Get the mouthfeel through beer gas and deal with volatile, inconsistent flavors (most customers won't notice it, or will enjoy the mouthfeel & effect so much that flavor perception diminishes), or get the purer flavor with pure nitrogen but lose the aesthetic bonus of the cascade froth. At my cafe —*where I sell through 2-3 3gal kegs of iced coffee every day —*we chose the purer, not-as-sexy route. But either one is valid, and there are increasing number of examples of each out there in the marketplace.

 

[jocamero]

Local coffee shop (Novo, Denver, CO) poured me what I think we're looking for last week and I ordered a keg which arrives today. I have a stout faucet, CO2, nitro, and beer gas all ready to make this work. I'll be trying the 100% nitro at ~40 psi first.

 

[Paps]

CO2 does affect the flavor of the coffee, no question. (As to the poster above who balks at the notion based on beer.

If your post is directed at me i suggest you re-read what i typed.
I made no argument regarding if CO2 affects the flavor/bite of coffee either for or against. My argument solely pertains to achieving a cascading affect and has nothing to do with `if CO2 adds bite/acididy flavors or not.`