Cloudy No-Head Brewing

[sremed60]

I started brewing a year ago and have done eight 5 gallon batches so far. The first two were Brewers Best extract kits. Then I bumped up the equipment and the last six batches have been all-grain, full boil.

Everything has been improving with each brew. I'm hitting my targets better and the taste has improved dramatically and is usually pretty close to what I set out to brew.

The two things I can't seem to get a handle on. Every beer I've brewed has been a lot cloudier than I would have liked. I bottle condition and jewel-clear beer is not my top priority, but I would like to get it a little clearer than I have.

Second is head retention. My beers have all been well carbonated and pour with a nice head, but the head doesn't stick around. Within a few minutes it's almost completely gone.

I'm getting ready to brew my last beer before the summer months: a Founders Breakfast Stout clone recipe I tweaked a bit. I'm not majorly concerned with clarity on this one since it's an imperial stout, but I would like to get a handle on head retention. Any comments are appreciated.

 

[kombat]

This one's easy.

Clear beer: Irish moss in the boil kettle (1 tsp right at flameout). Optionally, for even clearer beer, after fermentation has completely finished, cold-crash the beer (basically just cool it down to 32-34° F in the fermenter) and hit it with some gelatin (1 tsp in 1/3 cup water, added at room temp for 20 minutes to "bloom," then heat up to 150° F and add to the beer). Give it a day or two, then bottle/keg.

The head retention, the usual culprit is the glassware. Make sure you're not using a rinse agent (i.e., Jet Dry) in the dishwasher. That murders head retention. Secondly, you could add a 1/4 lb of Carapils/Carafoam to your recipes, it will add dramatically more head and drastically improve head retention.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

8oz of flaked barley really helps head retention.

 

[RM-MN]

Time in the fermenter helps clarity too as it lets the excess yeast drop out. If you normally leave your beer for 10 days and bottle, try doubling that time. Time in the bottle does wonders for clarity too. The bottles that sat in the dark for a couple months are really clear, even the wheat beers that are supposed to be cloudy clear up well.

 

[sremed60]

This one's easy.

Clear beer: Irish moss in the boil kettle (1 tsp right at flameout). Optionally, for even clearer beer, after fermentation has completely finished, cold-crash the beer (basically just cool it down to 32-34° F in the fermenter) and hit it with some gelatin (1 tsp in 1/3 cup water, added at room temp for 20 minutes to "bloom," then heat up to 150° F and add to the beer). Give it a day or two, then bottle/keg.

The head retention, the usual culprit is the glassware. Make sure you're not using a rinse agent (i.e., Jet Dry) in the dishwasher. That murders head retention. Secondly, you could add a 1/4 lb of Carapils/Carafoam to your recipes, it will add dramatically more head and drastically improve head retention.

I started using Irish Moss on my last 2 batches, although I've only been using 1/4 tsp per 5 gal. (I remember reading 1/4 tsp somewhere but don't remember where).

I've thought about cold crashing as well but have a few reservations:

(1) The fermentation chamber I built does awesome at keeping a constant temp at 60*F or more. I was going to test it next fall to see if I can get it down to lagering temp without overworking the compressor. I honestly don't know how it would do if I set it to 34*F for two days. I envision the compressor bursting into flames in the middle of the night and burning the house down, but that could just be my paranoia acting up.

(2) I don't have a microscope yet, (it's on the wish list), so I have no idea of knowing if there would be enough yeast left after cold crashing to bottle condition. I've read opinions on both sides, but they all seem to be based on guess work. Being the cheapskate I am, I'm reluctant to risk a $40 batch of beer to crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

8oz of flaked barley really helps head retention.

Something to consider. I read that flaked wheat was also good and I added a little flaked wheat and carafoam to my last batch. Very nice looking head out of the bottle, but gone in 60 seconds.

Time in the fermenter helps clarity too as it lets the excess yeast drop out. If you normally leave your beer for 10 days and bottle, try doubling that time. Time in the bottle does wonders for clarity too. The bottles that sat in the dark for a couple months are really clear, even the wheat beers that are supposed to be cloudy clear up well.

I have a separate cabinet just for beer glassware and I'm fanatical about making sure it's "beer clean." I started out doing 7-10 days in primary and 2 weeks in the bottle. I've been slowly increasing those times with every batch. This latest batch (a Belgian Tripel) was 10 days in primary, 14 days in secondary, 30 days bottle conditioning and 1 week in the fridge. One of the best beers I've ever tasted - but a little too cloudy and the head disappears within a couple minutes.

Again, clear beer is not my number one priority, but I don't want it to look like yellow paint either. Head retention, on the other hand, is a major concern. At this point I would say that I put head retention higher up on the list than appearance or even aroma when I'm designing a recipe.

 

[CUrchin]

Microscope? There is plenty of yeast in there for carbonation, even when it's clear. I use whirlfloc, never ever had a problem with carbonation.

 

[RM-MN]

I started using Irish Moss on my last 2 batches, although I've only been using 1/4 tsp per 5 gal. (I remember reading 1/4 tsp somewhere but don't remember where).

I've thought about cold crashing as well but have a few reservations:

(1) The fermentation chamber I built does awesome at keeping a constant temp at 60*F or more. I was going to test it next fall to see if I can get it down to lagering temp without overworking the compressor. I honestly don't know how it would do if I set it to 34*F for two days. I envision the compressor bursting into flames in the middle of the night and burning the house down, but that could just be my paranoia acting up.

(2) I don't have a microscope yet, (it's on the wish list), so I have no idea of knowing if there would be enough yeast left after cold crashing to bottle condition. I've read opinions on both sides, but they all seem to be based on guess work. Being the cheapskate I am, I'm reluctant to risk a $40 batch of beer to crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.


Something to consider. I read that flaked wheat was also good and I added a little flaked wheat and carafoam to my last batch. Very nice looking head out of the bottle, but gone in 60 seconds.


I have a separate cabinet just for beer glassware and I'm fanatical about making sure it's "beer clean." I started out doing 7-10 days in primary and 2 weeks in the bottle. I've been slowly increasing those times with every batch. This latest batch (a Belgian Tripel) was 10 days in primary, 14 days in secondary, 30 days bottle conditioning and 1 week in the fridge. One of the best beers I've ever tasted - but a little too cloudy and the head disappears within a couple minutes.

Again, clear beer is not my number one priority, but I don't want it to look like yellow paint either. Head retention, on the other hand, is a major concern. At this point I would say that I put head retention higher up on the list than appearance or even aroma when I'm designing a recipe.

It isn't just residue in the beer glassware, it's residue anywhere in your system. That could be in the fermenter, the secondary, the bottling bucket, or even the bottles. I washed a batch of bottles with too much oxiclean and only did a single rinse. Of course, I made 2 more batches and had them bottled before I opened on of the first batch. No head....on any of the 3 batches. Wash well but rinse even better. I believe the standard in laboratory settings is triple rinse. I only double rinse but that is my new standard.

 

[RM-MN]

I started using Irish Moss on my last 2 batches, although I've only been using 1/4 tsp per 5 gal. (I remember reading 1/4 tsp somewhere but don't remember where).

I've thought about cold crashing as well but have a few reservations:

(1) The fermentation chamber I built does awesome at keeping a constant temp at 60*F or more. I was going to test it next fall to see if I can get it down to lagering temp without overworking the compressor. I honestly don't know how it would do if I set it to 34*F for two days. I envision the compressor bursting into flames in the middle of the night and burning the house down, but that could just be my paranoia acting up.

(2) I don't have a microscope yet, (it's on the wish list), so I have no idea of knowing if there would be enough yeast left after cold crashing to bottle condition. I've read opinions on both sides, but they all seem to be based on guess work. Being the cheapskate I am, I'm reluctant to risk a $40 batch of beer to crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.


Something to consider. I read that flaked wheat was also good and I added a little flaked wheat and carafoam to my last batch. Very nice looking head out of the bottle, but gone in 60 seconds.


I have a separate cabinet just for beer glassware and I'm fanatical about making sure it's "beer clean." I started out doing 7-10 days in primary and 2 weeks in the bottle. I've been slowly increasing those times with every batch. This latest batch (a Belgian Tripel) was 10 days in primary, 14 days in secondary, 30 days bottle conditioning and 1 week in the fridge. One of the best beers I've ever tasted - but a little too cloudy and the head disappears within a couple minutes.

Again, clear beer is not my number one priority, but I don't want it to look like yellow paint either. Head retention, on the other hand, is a major concern. At this point I would say that I put head retention higher up on the list than appearance or even aroma when I'm designing a recipe.

Check out this exbeeriment by Brulosopher on fermentation temperatures and lagers. http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/19/fermentation-temperature-pt-1-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Sammy86]

I recently starting using whirflock on my last two brews...now granted I keg but after a month the beers were perfectly clear.

 

[sremed60]

Microscope? There is plenty of yeast in there for carbonation, even when it's clear. I use whirlfloc, never ever had a problem with carbonation.

A microscope to count yeast cells is on my list of things I want. Not necessarily that I think it will improve my brews - more because it just sounds interesting and fun to me.

I've heard some guys comment that they cold crashed and bottled and ended up with sweet flat beer because there wasn't enough yeast left in suspension to carbonate. I've heard guys say that if you cold crash you should always add more yeast when you bottle? And I've heard guys say they cold crash, never added yeast, and never had an issue with carbonation. I suppose they're all telling the truth. The point being - if you don't know how much viable yeast is still in suspension after the cold crash, then whether you add yeast or how much you add is all just a guessing game.

I enjoy all the science and chemistry involved in brewing. It's part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me. I don't count yeast right now because I don't have a microscope. But it sounds like an interesting aspect that I would like to fart around with - sooooooo

 

[Yooper]

You don't have to worry about not having enough yeast to carbonate- you can hold the beer at near freezing for weeks, and still have enough yeast to carbonate.

Yeast don't freeze solid at 31 degree in a liquid with alcohol in it. If the beer doesn't freeze, neither does the yeast.

What does happen is that the yeast goes dormant, and drops to the bottom, so that many lagers are very clear. There are still millions of yeast in suspension, but because we who bottle carbonate may prefer billions in suspension, we will sometimes add addition yeast to assure carbonation.

You can count them if you'd like to. It really doesn't matter either way, but it is interesting.

 

[sremed60]

Thank you.

What does happen is that the yeast goes dormant, and drops to the bottom, so that many lagers are very clear.

And then you rack that clear beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket being careful not to disturb or transfer any of that layer of "dormant yeast" that has dropped to the bottom... right? So whether you can "hold that beer at near freezing for weeks" months or years is irrelevant if it's not going in the bottles.

... but because we who bottle carbonate may prefer billions in suspension, we will sometimes add addition yeast to assure carbonation.

That was pretty much the point I was making about "guesswork." It's not really a personal preference issue. There's either enough yeast in suspension to carbonate, and at the preferred CO2 levels for the specific style, along with a precisely measured quantity of sugar . . . . or there isn't.

So like I said, I understand cold crashing is one way to add clarity to a beer, and I understand the concept of how it knocks solids out of suspension and all that. I've been reluctant to try cold crashing because I have no way of knowing how much yeast I'm taking out and how much is left to carbonate - aside from just guessing. And after spending $30 or $0 on ingredients and waiting weeks or months, I don't want to pour 5 gallons of beer down the drain because I took an uneducated guess.

American lagers need a certain (specified) amount of sugar and yeast relative to the amount of beer in order to ferment at the required CO2 level, (which changes depending on temp anyway). English ales need less sugar (and less yeast). Belgian beers need more. I've never seen a recipe that called for a handful of dextrose in the bucket at bottling. The consensus seems to be, carefully weigh out a precise amount of corn sugar... and then cross your fingers and hope there's enough yeast in your beer to convert it to CO2

 

[GHBWNY]

You weren't specific on when you're getting cloudiness which makes me wonder if you're getting chill haze, i.e., is your beer is clearer when warm but turns cloudy when cold? If there's the possibility you aren't getting a good cold break after the boil, there's a good chance you'll have chill haze and although it's harmless, there's nothing in the way of clearing the beer (finings, gel, C-C, etc.) that will eliminate it.

 

[brandonnys]

Why don't you filter everything out (including the dormant yeast), and then re-introduce yeast to the cell count you feel is necessary to achieve proper carbonation? Sure takes the guesswork out of it if you have a clean slate.

If you did it that way, you could use a mechanical filter, use gelatin, or probably a half dozen other ways to get rid of the cloudiness.

 

[Yooper]

That was pretty much the point I was making about "guesswork." It's not really a personal preference issue. There's either enough yeast in suspension to carbonate, and at the preferred CO2 levels for the specific style, along with a precisely measured quantity of sugar . . . . or there isn't.

But there is. Even one yeast cell will bud and reproduce, and you've got millions to billions. It's just faster if you add a pinch of fresh yeast at bottling. Whether there are 100 billion cells or 500 billion cells, there are still enough of them.

But, if someone is concerned about it, adding 1/3 package of dry yeast to the priming solution at bottling will cost less than $1 and assure quick carbonation.

I've personally held a light lager at 34 degrees for almost 10 weeks, and had good bottle carbonation. So doing a cold crash for a couple of days will not really remove that many of the yeast from the solution. It does help with suspended larger suspended solids.

If you have chill haze, holding the beer at 34 degrees for a week may solve that issue. The proteins that cause chill haze don't appear until the beer is cold, so a beer at room temperature may be clear but then the chill haze forms when the beer is cold. It can be prevented during brewing by getting a good hot break and cold break, but many people still get it. Cold crashing is one way to fix it afterwards.

 

[Aristotelian]

I have been struggling with head retention as well in my first year of brewing. I think I may have finally turned a corner. I had been using flaked wheat and wheat malt for body without much success. I am currently fermenting a batch of Belgian Pale Ale that foamed up with the fluffiest, softest, and most persistent foam that I have seen yet. It remains to be seen whether that will hold when it turns to beer, but it looks like the perfect head that I have been seeking lo these many months. The things I did differently this batch:

1. First batch to use Pilsner malt (all previous batches have used 2-row). I am not sure if this is the difference.
2. 200g (4% of grain bill) carapils.
3. Step mash discussed in the L'Achouffe clone thread. I did 15 min @ 145F followed by 45 min @ 154F. I have mostly fermented on the low side because I like my beers dry and low mash is supposed to increase fermentability but I am hoping I can get the fermentability with the body and head retention using this step mash. I am not sure how a step mash would translate for extract brewing but I imagine you could do a partial mash with a small amount of base malt and carapils and get a similar effect.

I have nothing to say about clarity. I personally don't care about the appearance. I have had some delicious hazy beers and it is possible that clearing the beers sacrifices flavor.

 

[kombat]

^^ It was the 1/2 lb of Carapils.

 

[sremed60]

Why don't you filter everything out (including the dormant yeast), and then re-introduce yeast to the cell count you feel is necessary to achieve proper carbonation? Sure takes the guesswork out of it if you have a clean slate.

If you did it that way, you could use a mechanical filter, use gelatin, or probably a half dozen other ways to get rid of the cloudiness.

This is probably the way I'm leaning right now. I think using fresh yeast is a better option than trying to figure out how much of the stressed out yeast that has already been thru fermentation is still floating around.

I don't really like the idea of filtering, but it might be the lesser of two evils in this case. I intend to brew more Belgian styles than anything else and it's my understanding that for a 5 gallon batch, 175g of sugar and 1/2tsp of dry yeast would get me the desired 3.3 CO2 level I want.

Dry yeast just because it seems like it would be easier. I used Fermentis Safbrew T-58 in one batch, and then I combined WLP-500 and WLP510 in this latest batch, and I didn't notice any dramatic differences between them. If anything the T-58 is a little "yeastier" in the nose.

A lot of Belgians use a centrifuge to spin the yeast out of suspension before adding fresh yeast and bottling. If I could figure out a way to do that cheaply and safely, that would probably be my preferred method. But I suppose a mechanical filter is a decent plan B.

 

[sremed60]

You weren't specific on when you're getting cloudiness which makes me wonder if you're getting chill haze, i.e., is your beer is clearer when warm but turns cloudy when cold? If there's the possibility you aren't getting a good cold break after the boil, there's a good chance you'll have chill haze and although it's harmless, there's nothing in the way of clearing the beer (finings, gel, C-C, etc.) that will eliminate it.

It's possible it's a combination of cloudy and chill haze. My beers have all been pretty cloudy so to say if they are more or less cloudy when cold or warm is difficult. They're just cloudy, (dare I say "muddy") at any temp.

I live in the Phoenix AZ area. I brewed a few batches last summer but I've decided that I'll suspend my brewing activity this year from June until October or November. It's just too much of a pain and expense in the whole process trying to keep the temps down where they need to be when it's 115* during the day and drops down to a bone chilling 110* at night.

I have a tweaked Founders Breakfast Stout clone recipe I'm going to brew next week and that'll be it until the temp drops back down into double digits consistently again.

I use an immersion chiller with a pre-chiller ice bath and it takes me 25-30 minutes to chill 5.5 gallons from boiling to 68*. I could speed that up if I constantly stirred the wort, (I'm just lazy). For Belgians I like to get it down to 64* to pitch and then bump it up a degree per day to 68*. I finish primary at 68* and keep it at 68* for secondary. I've been sticking it in a closet at room temp (78-80*) to bottle condition but I just read that's probably too high for conditioning.

So I have a fermentation chamber I built, now it looks like I need a refrigerator that I can set at 34* to cold crash and another one set at 60* to bottle condition. SWMBO wasn't too keen on the idea of buying (and running) 2 extra refrigerators in the garage. She asked how other brewers do it and I said, "They live back east where they have basements that stay 60* year round." She said, "At this point it would probably be cheaper for us to just move back east." :rockin:

I'm cool wit dat

 

[GHBWNY]

I use an immersion chiller with a pre-chiller ice bath and it takes me 25-30 minutes to chill 5.5 gallons from boiling to 68*. I could speed that up if I constantly stirred the wort, (I'm just lazy).

I've been sticking it in a closet at room temp (78-80*) to bottle condition but I just read that's probably too high for conditioning. ...it looks like I need a refrigerator that I can... set at 60* to bottle condition.

25-30 min seems a little long to chill, esp. with a pre-chill. Is your tap water not very cold? By comparison, my wort drops from boil to 65F in 10-12 min with the IC, but our tap water is really cold. I also stir intermittently with the IC while it's cooling.

I concur that your current bottle cond. temp is too high, while at the same time, your target temp of 60F is too low. After FG, I cold crash at 34F for 24 hrs., add gelatin and C-C for another 3 days. I bottle condition @ 70F (since it is technically another fermentation) for 3 weeks. Super clear beer.

Hope your stout does what you want it to.