Fermcaps affects on head retention

[BugAC]

One of the aspects of my beers i've been trying to improve, recently, is head retention. Overall, the head retention in most of my beers is ok, but after the beer sits in the keg for a while (over a month), the head seems to dissipate rather quickly. As i was driving into work this morning i started randomly thinking about foam, and how i could improve the foam stability in my beers. For a long time now, i've been using fermcap-s in my beer, to mitigate the foam levels during the boil and prevent boil-over, and then an addition just after adding my yeast to the fermenter. Would the addition of fermcap-s also affect foam stability? It seems to make sense that if the purpose is to prevent foam up during fermentation, that once packaged, the beer could also be impacted in the finished product. Thoughts?

Regardless, i think i'm retiring fermcap-s from my brewing and keep everything a bit more natural. May still use it in the kettle during the boil, but at much lower rates.

 

[Dgallo]

One of the aspects of my beers i've been trying to improve, recently, is head retention. Overall, the head retention in most of my beers is ok, but after the beer sits in the keg for a while (over a month), the head seems to dissipate rather quickly. As i was driving into work this morning i started randomly thinking about foam, and how i could improve the foam stability in my beers. For a long time now, i've been using fermcap-s in my beer, to mitigate the foam levels during the boil and prevent boil-over, and then an addition just after adding my yeast to the fermenter. Would the addition of fermcap-s also affect foam stability? It seems to make sense that if the purpose is to prevent foam up during fermentation, that once packaged, the beer could also be impacted in the finished product. Thoughts?

Regardless, i think i'm retiring fermcap-s from my brewing and keep everything a bit more natural. May still use it in the kettle during the boil, but at much lower rates.

Fermcap claims it won’t effect head retention as it should drop out once fermentation slows.

That said there are ways you can improve head retention. I’m really big on it as it’s one of the things I am for

Here are my process,
-using a malted higher protein grain at 3-5% atleast.
-Step mashing - 148*f for 40, 158*f for 30, mash out 170* for 10.
- hotside finings like whirlfloc even with on hazy styles as you want to drop long chain proteins
-transfer as clear of beer as possible to the fermenter's
-hops help greatly with head rention so a good late or dryhop will help
- good crash prior to transferring to serving keg.

I always have good luck with this process;

 

[BugAC]

Wow, those are some beautiful beers.

Here are my process,
-using a malted higher protein grain at 3-5% atleast.
-Step mashing - 148*f for 40, 158*f for 30, mash out 170* for 10.
- hotside finings like whirlfloc even with on hazy styles as you want to drop long chain proteins
-transfer as clear of beer as possible to the fermenter's
-hops help greatly with head rention so a good late or dryhop will help
- good crash prior to transferring to serving keg.

"Using a malted higher protein grain" - i'm definitely going to start keeping this in mind. Grain selection has really just been focusing on the type i want (pils, 2row, etc...) and the supplier (mostly weyermann). But protein content is something i've been reading up on lately and you just confirmed what i read.
- Step mashing, i do this for all my lagers. I do not perform a mash out, however. Does that affect anything? I figure my sparge at 168 takes care of this, and being infusion, i doubt i can get the water hot enough to bring the mash temp up that high (i've tried with turbid mashes for lambics).
- Whirlfloc - already do this
- The rest are practices i already do.

So i think i'm on the right track, going forward. I think if i intentionally focus on those things, it should work out. A lot of times i have a brew process and i just do it, and after several batches it's an afterthought. If i put more focus to these individual steps I should get there.

 

[Dgallo]

Wow, those are some beautiful beers.



"Using a malted higher protein grain" - i'm definitely going to start keeping this in mind. Grain selection has really just been focusing on the type i want (pils, 2row, etc...) and the supplier (mostly weyermann). But protein content is something i've been reading up on lately and you just confirmed what i read.
- Step mashing, i do this for all my lagers. I do not perform a mash out, however. Does that affect anything? I figure my sparge at 168 takes care of this, and being infusion, i doubt i can get the water hot enough to bring the mash temp up that high (i've tried with turbid mashes for lambics).
- Whirlfloc - already do this
- The rest are practices i already do.

So i think i'm on the right track, going forward. I think if i intentionally focus on those things, it should work out. A lot of times i have a brew process and i just do it, and after several batches it's an afterthought. If i put more focus to these individual steps I should get there.

Thanks brother. The reason the mash out works as it destroys all mash enzymes (denatures) so It locks in the worts composition. Without the mash out both alpha and beta amylase will continue to work and change the types of sugars in the wort. Won’t ruin a beer by any means but it will come out different than the mashing schedule you targeted

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks brother. The reason the mash out works as it destroys all mash enzymes (denatures) so It locks in the worts composition. Without the mash out both alpha and beta amylase will continue to work and change the types of sugars in the wort. Won’t ruin a beer by any means but it will come out different than the mashing schedule you targeted

It is actually also foam positive as under higher temperatures glycoproteins can form which enhance foam quite a bit. So higher temperature steps in general enhance foam, in my experience.

 

[BugAC]

Thanks brother. The reason the mash out works as it destroys all mash enzymes (denatures) so It locks in the worts composition. Without the mash out both alpha and beta amylase will continue to work and change the types of sugars in the wort. Won’t ruin a beer by any means but it will come out different than the mashing schedule you targeted

Maybe that's why my FG is always much lower (1.006-1.008). I always thought mashout primary purpose was to not get a stuck mash.

 

[kevin58]

In my experience (as well as others) "transfer(ring) as clear of beer as possible to the fermenter" has very little effect on final clarity.

 

[Dgallo]

In my experience (as well as others) "transfer(ring) as clear of beer as possible to the fermenter" has very little effect on final clarity.

it should have some impact. yeast bind polyphenols and proteins and form haze. If leas protein and hops are getting into the fermenter, less haze should occur

 

[Miraculix]

it should have some impact. yeast bind polyphenols and proteins and form haze. If leas protein and hops are getting into the fermenter, less haze should occur

I've seen experiments which shown actually the direct opposite. The more trub is in the fermenter, the bigger the surface of already coagulated proteins is. The bigger this surface, the bigger the chance that the remaining proteins will stick to it and drop out.

 

[Dgallo]

I've seen experiments which shown actually the direct opposite. The more trub is in the fermenter, the bigger the surface of already coagulated proteins is. The bigger this surface, the bigger the chance that the remaining proteins will stick to it and drop out.

That would make sense to drop more protein for sure. As protein chain attract more and more they’d get larger and create larger attractions, pulling a lot more protein out, which is what whirlflock does in the kettle. At the same time this would pull down more and more hop compounds as they are positively attracted to proteins. I’m sure getting some access trub it won’t bother things but clean wort i, clean beer out works well.

Many ways to skin a cat, I suggest people use what works best for their system and their goals

 

[Miraculix]

That would make sense to drop more protein for sure. As protein chain attract more and more they’d get larger and create larger attractions, pulling a lot more protein out, which is what whirlflock does in the kettle. At the same time this would pull down more and more hop compounds as they are positively attracted to proteins. I’m sure getting some access trub it won’t bother things but clean wort i, clean beer out works well.

Many ways to skin a cat, I suggest people use what works best for their system and their goals

Exactly!

The clear wort produces clearer beer thing has debunked many times. But there is other stuff going on that favours clear wort. A lot of it has to do with shelf live. I forgot the other reasons tbh, but there was more to it.

Edit: One more thing I remember, the proteins can also stick to yeast's cellwalls, blocking it from the wort and making life hard for the yeast. The yeasts answer is excreting enzymes that chop the proteins which also chops down foam increasing proteins. So it can affect the mouthfeel and the foam negatively this way.

 

[Broothru]

I mash out at 78C/172F for :15 minutes. I also skim the the hot break just after reaching full boil, and also about half way through the boil (I do most of my boils for :75 minutes). I chill as rapidly as ground water temperatures will let me, and can usually reach 16C/61F in about :45 minutes using a 50’ stainless steel immersion chiller.

After reaching temperature, I whirlpool in the boiler for :10 minutes, cover the pot, and let the trub settle while I start on the cleanup. After an hour or two, the wort is extremely clear, and I pump only clear wort into the fermenter. My usual volumes are ~26 liters into the fermenter and dumping 5-6 liters thick trub. I do this for both lagers and ales.

My most recent brews are: a Blonde Ale, a ‘classic’ American lager (Falstaff, Hamm’s, etc., knockoff) a Munich Helles, and a Kolsch. Currently I’m drinking the Blonde and lagering the other three. All of them are crystal clear (each got 10 ml Biofine injected into the keg at packaging). All have excellent body, not thin or watery, and none of the hop or malt flavors have been stripped or diminished. I’m hoping the BJCP judges will feel the same way.

I’m especially pleased with how the Kolsch turned out regarding clarity, taste and body. It should be a winner. Reminds me of the many Kolsch I enjoyed during my “working vacations” to Germany back in the day.

It’s been my experience that clear wort into the fermenter doesn’t result in thin beers with poor body or head retention. The Blonde I’m drinking pours with a solid rocky white head and persistent lacing that leaves pronounced notching with each sip. I think the key is using good ingredients, paying attention to water chemistry, doing a step mash with a longer rest near 156-158F, and a hot mash out at ~172F for :15 minutes. At least that’s what consistently works for me.

 

[Miraculix]

I mash out at 78C/172F for :15 minutes. I also skim the the hot break just after reaching full boil, and also about half way through the boil (I do most of my boils for :75 minutes). I chill as rapidly as ground water temperatures will let me, and can usually reach 16C/61F in about :45 minutes using a 50’ stainless steel immersion chiller.

After reaching temperature, I whirlpool in the boiler for :10 minutes, cover the pot, and let the trub settle while I start on the cleanup. After an hour or two, the wort is extremely clear, and I pump only clear wort into the fermenter. My usual volumes are ~26 liters into the fermenter and dumping 5-6 liters thick trub. I do this for both lagers and ales.

My most recent brews are: a Blonde Ale, a ‘classic’ American lager (Falstaff, Hamm’s, etc., knockoff) a Munich Helles, and a Kolsch. Currently I’m drinking the Blonde and lagering the other three. All of them are crystal clear (each got 10 ml Biofine injected into the keg at packaging). All have excellent body, not thin or watery, and none of the hop or malt flavors have been stripped or diminished. I’m hoping the BJCP judges will feel the same way.

I’m especially pleased with how the Kolsch turned out regarding clarity, taste and body. It should be a winner. Reminds me of the many Kolsch I enjoyed during my “working vacations” to Germany back in the day.

It’s been my experience that clear wort into the fermenter doesn’t result in thin beers with poor body or head retention. The Blonde I’m drinking pours with a solid rocky white head and persistent lacing that leaves pronounced notching with each sip. I think the key is using good ingredients, paying attention to water chemistry, doing a step mash with a longer rest near 156-158F, and a hot mash out at ~172F for :15 minutes. At least that’s what consistently works for me.

If you are refering to my post with your last paragraph, than you misunderstood my post.

Have you tried not skimming the hot break during the boil? in my experience, this results in a more compact trub layer at the bottom of the boiling pot when left alone for a bit after chilling.

 

[wdavis2003]

According to a recent Brulosophy experiment (You can hunt it down on YT), a slow cold crash has a great effect on head retention as opposed to dropping the temp drastically. A few degrees every 12 hours is my method.

I use Fermcap s in the boil and have no negative side effects that I can tell.

 

[Broothru]

Slow crash to 38F had always been my method when reaching terminal gravity. Until…

The last four beers I’ve brewed (all in the last five weeks) have used the new hybrid lager yeasts NovaLager and WLP 808 “Mythical Hammer”, both of which are true bottom fermenting S. carlsbergensis strains that can ferment cleanly at higher temperatures (mid-60s F). Mythical Hammer was produced to also perform well under 1BAR pressure. The NovaLager was not designed specifically for pressurized fermentation, but it does quite well under pressure.

All four beers were fermented at 65F under 1BAR pressure. The first, a Cold IPA, was at FG five days after pitch at 1.009 (WLP-808). On the fourth day I had increased the temperature to 73F. Day 5 showed no trace of diacytel, so I packaged it. Since it had been spunded, it was transferred under pressure to a serving keg, dosed with BioFine, and refrigerated for two weeks at 38F. Plenty of body, excellent foam stability and notching in the glass.

The next three were fermented with the NovaLager: a Kolsch, Munich Helles and American Lager. All at 65F, 2-3 days at 73F D-rest, kegged and fined after 7-8 days from pitch to packaging. For lagers!

All the beers far exceeded my expectations. They are clear, clean and crisp. They all achieved excellent body with no off-tasting characteristics. The last two beers I added ALDC enzyme at yeast pitch which is supposed to suppress the production of VDKs during fermentation as well as speed up the fermentation process. I can’t tell if it did anything, since none of the beers presented any diacytel aromas or tastes, fermented very rapidly, and cleared nicely on their own.

N.B. “The Crash” I did on each of these fermentations went straight from 73F to 38F with no pauses or step-downs. I cannot see any differences in the finished beers, other than they were crashed in 12 hours rather than five days. Body, clarity, etc., the same as all the others I’ve brewed using “accepted practices” methods. Is it the hybrid yeasts? Do accepted practices really make a difference? Don’t know. YMMV. My $.02.