Clarity - Chill Haze Protein Rest w/ BIAB

[Chris7687]

Hey guys,
So I have been combating chill haze problems for the last few batches I have made. I still haven't pin pointed the problem, but feel it is related to a specific grain type as I only get it on certain brews and not others. I am trying to take every step possible to rid the problem from my brewery! That being said, I have read several sources citing that a protein rest between 113* - 140* helps eliminate these proteins. So my questions are 1) Has anyone tried this process with BIAB? 2) How long of a rest is necessary? 3) Have you experienced any off flavors?

My current BIAB process, as it has always been, is to the heat strike water to desired amount, dough in, stir like crazy to eliminate dough balls, let rest, then pull out. I have never done a dough in and then raise the temp. Mainly, I fear I will scorch the grain and release bad tannins (this is using a propane burner). The water temp at the surface might be 150*, but the bottom could be 180* and releasing bad tannins. Please correct me if my fear is fictional.

Could this technique work in the way my process works now? Maybe bring water to 125*, dough-in to let sit at 120, pull out, raise temp to desired mash temp, then dough back in?

To also combat chill haze I give a strong rolling boil, use Irish moss, and I just started incorporating a sump pump hooked to my immersion chiller which sits in a ice bath.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Do you bottle or keg? How long are you cold conditioning your beer?

I have found that prolonged cold storage works wonders, could try whirlfloc, gelatin perhaps. Cold and time usually clears even the cloudiest mess IME.

Sorry no other help with your process.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Chris7687]

I do both, but have run into the problem in both instances. I have cold conditioned my beers for various amounts of time, but time doesn't seem to affect the chill haze.

A post from a few months ago that I tried to determine a game plan:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/cold-crash-separation-372956/

I also tried gelatin, to no avail.

 

[stpug]

In decoction mashing I am boiling the thickest part of the mash (i.e. I pull mostly grain from my MLT). I put the thick mash in a pot and eventually bring it to a full rolling boil for 5-30 minutes depending on what I'm aiming for. As long as your pH is in check then there's no need to worry about tannin extraction.

My concern would be the bag itself - making sure it's not sitting on the bottom of the pot while you're coming to saccrification rest so it doesn't burn/melt/whatever. Also, I'd be stirring the pot contents during the heating phase so as to create as consistent a temperature throughout the pot as possible.

HTH!

 

[helibrewer]

Are you sure it is chill haze and not permanent haze? Chill haze disappears above 20C but can become permanent when those polyphenols become oxidized.

Assuming you are using well modified malts all of the protein is already broken down through the malting process. The low temp rest is actually for B-glucans which make up the cell wall surrounding the protein matrix.

Likely culprits are: unconverted starch, pentosans from wheat, oxalate from calcium deficient wort, and damaged yeast.

 

[Chris7687]

stpug - I need to read more into decoction mashing, never quite understood it except people use it to make big bodied beers from what I understand. I did purchase some pH strips to test the mash, but I am told they aren't too accurate and I should have spent the extra $20 and got a pH meter... oh well.

As for the integrity of the bag, it should be fine. On my electric system, the bag sits directly on the heating element at 160* and has no damage to it. I would definitely stir constantly to evenly distribute the heat. Hoping to get a chugger pump here soon to do the stirring for me.

Are you sure it is chill haze and not permanent haze? Chill haze disappears above 20C but can become permanent when those polyphenols become oxidized.

Assuming you are using well modified malts all of the protein is already broken down through the malting process. The low temp rest is actually for B-glucans which make up the cell wall surrounding the protein matrix.

Likely culprits are: unconverted starch, pentosans from wheat, oxalate from calcium deficient wort, and damaged yeast.

Permanent haze could be the culprit. I am assuming this comes from the "unconverted starch, pentosans from wheat, oxalate from calcium deficient wort, and damaged yeast.", correct?

Please take a look at the photo's in my thread posted up top. Let me know what you think. I've had beers sit for months and they've never cleared. I meant to take a picture last night of a lager I made months (approx. 9 months) ago. It definitely has a chill haze to it, as it warms to room temp it clears up. I don't have the recipe for it on my work computer, but I do not believe it has any wheat in it.

My Pale Ale this happens to sometimes too, It is Maris Otter (85%), Munich (9%), Honey (5%), and Carapils (2%).

So the two things I am thinking could be happening, from your suggestions, are Unconverted starches and oxalate from calcium deficient wort. I purchased iodine to start testing for unconverted starches. As for calcium deficient wort, how do I determine this? I purchase RO water from the store, so I am not sure of the minerals that are in the water or the lack there of.

 

[Beernik]

Back to the original question: I step mashed on my first two BIABs.

I pulled the bag so that it was hanging mostly out of the wort, raised the temperature, and then lowered the bag back in. (I used my driveway basketball hoop as a pully.)

 

[Yooper]

Could this technique work in the way my process works now? Maybe bring water to 125*, dough-in to let sit at 120, pull out, raise temp to desired mash temp, then dough back in?

To also combat chill haze I give a strong rolling boil, use Irish moss, and I just started incorporating a sump pump hooked to my immersion chiller which sits in a ice bath.

As was mentioned, pulling the grain out and leaving liquid or mostly liquid would change the pH and cause some issues. A decoction boils grain, with just enough liquid to not scorch, so that the pH remains in the correct area. The liquid is where the enzymatic activity takes place and you don't want to denature the enzymes. Many brewers will pull mostly liquid to go to mash out temps, but never to saccrification rests.

 

[Clarke]

I used to do a protein rest for wheat beers, I don't bother with it anymore and I don't have a problem with chill haze or permanent haze, which is new term to me. Unless I agitate the yeast my wheat beers are crystal clear.

When I did do a protein rest I would mash following the instruction on this link:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedMashing.pdf