Cider Making - Wild Fermenting

[BGBC]

Interesting. It does seem low for the ciders/juices I've worked with in the past. All have been around 1.055 +/- 0.002.

My wild cider is still chugging along after 2+ weeks (took 3+ days for the first bubbles to appear) and I'm getting a lot of the sulfuric/rhino fart smells coming out of the airlock. Hoping that calms down and doesn't impact the final product.

 

[rowan57]

Thanks BGBC, I thought it a little odd too but it is what it is I suppose

My wild ferment 1 gallon carboys are showing more signs of life that the yeasted 3 and 5 gallon carboys! I gave the carboys a good shake tonight to help oxygenate the must but will leave them alone now - the house is relatively cool so it may take some time to get going.


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[CorporateHippie]

Icollected a good amount of apples to press this harvest season. I made a 5 gal batch of Graft, a 5 gal batch of cider with WLP001, set aside several gallons which I boiled and will serve as NA hot cider during the holidays...however.... I also had a 3 gal batch in my fermentation chamber in a clean carboy with an airlock on it. I was waiting to use it for an apple/raz cider once the regular cider was done. Before I had the chance, it had a krausen on it. I was like "Wait, what just happened here?" So I just went with it. Bottled it a month ago and will have the first taste later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[rowan57]

Let us know how it tastes!

We have fermentation (in all carboys), not vigorous but certainly there. As stated the house is quite cool at the moment, so low and slow it goes;

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1416507089.082805.jpg




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[CorporateHippie]

All right...first wild cider was opened last night. I held it softly but still got an explosion of carbonation when the top was popped. (should have known from other sour beers.) Nose was very appley with a hint of tartness but the flavor....WOW. It was so tart and sour, but in a good way. I had my wife taste it, who loves my regular ciders, and she said that she wanted more "sour apple cider". I bottle conditioned and will harvest the dregs to build a starter and attempt to recreate this flavor with store bought juice.

 

[rowan57]

All right...first wild cider was opened last night. I held it softly but still got an explosion of carbonation when the top was popped. (should have known from other sour beers.) Nose was very appley with a hint of tartness but the flavor....WOW. It was so tart and sour, but in a good way. I had my wife taste it, who loves my regular ciders, and she said that she wanted more "sour apple cider". I bottle conditioned and will harvest the dregs to build a starter and attempt to recreate this flavor with store bought juice.

Sounds awesome! Interesting idea to try and harvest the dregs, will be very interested to see the results of that one! Also good that the wife liked it, I think people are either genetically predisposed to sour flavours or not.

There was actually a short segment on TV here the other day about and old cider producer, most of his juice now goes to commercial cideries but he keeps some back, sticks it in a barrel and let's it go. Upto a month for first signs of fermentation (looked like said barrel was stored in an open barn outside). I struggle for space in my house, but if I can figure out a way to do a barrel I may well do!


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[rowan57]

The wild cider is giving the yeasted ciders a good run for their money;

http://youtu.be/HqG6u7pat-Y


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[rowan57]

Bit of an update, both the Brett Brux and Wallonian Farmhouse have developed pellices (photo of Brett Brux below):

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420221177.906641.jpg

I have no real concept of how long to leave these ciders before bottling - I am in no rush. Any input on this aspect appreciated.


I am also vaguely wondering if when the cider finishes, I could rack a Belgian Golden Strong onto the trub? Sloooowly building my AG kit so brewing say 12 gallons of BGS might be within capacity soon.

 

[CorporateHippie]

Bit of an update, both the Brett Brux and Wallonian Farmhouse have developed pellices (photo of Brett Brux below):

View attachment 246160

I have no real concept of how long to leave these ciders before bottling - I am in no rush. Any input on this aspect appreciated.


I am also vaguely wondering if when the cider finishes, I could rack a Belgian Golden Strong onto the trub? Sloooowly building my AG kit so brewing say 12 gallons of BGS might be within capacity soon.

Have you snuck a taste yet? with an all Brett B. fermentation that puppy may be well down to where it is going to get. I would guess around 1.005ish. I would love to hear your tasting notes. I ALWAYS have Wyeast Brett. B. on hand but have not tried it in cider yet. I will wait to hear what you say and I may just pitch some into 3-1/2 gallons of store bought apple juice this next weekend.

On a side note, going back to our conversation a month or two ago....I was able to harvest the dregs from my wild yeast cider. I built them up in a starter and they were pitched into a 1 gallon jug of apple juice back on 12/17. They are starting to flocc out pretty good now and I am happy to see a decent layer of trub at the bottom. I am excited to see what flavor profile this clean apple juice gets from the wild yeast because I would love to try it next in a batch of golden ale and go from there.

 

[rowan57]

Have you snuck a taste yet? with an all Brett B. fermentation that puppy may be well down to where it is going to get. I would guess around 1.005ish. I would love to hear your tasting notes. I ALWAYS have Wyeast Brett. B. on hand but have not tried it in cider yet. I will wait to hear what you say and I may just pitch some into 3-1/2 gallons of store bought apple juice this next weekend.

On a side note, going back to our conversation a month or two ago....I was able to harvest the dregs from my wild yeast cider. I built them up in a starter and they were pitched into a 1 gallon jug of apple juice back on 12/17. They are starting to flocc out pretty good now and I am happy to see a decent layer of trub at the bottom. I am excited to see what flavor profile this clean apple juice gets from the wild yeast because I would love to try it next in a batch of golden ale and go from there.

I havent! I'm really thinking these might want to sit for 6 months or so, to allow those flavours to really develop.

My actual wild ciders fermented equally as well as the Brett/Bacteria ciders which was very interesting. It will be very interesting to see if you can bring more flavour out of a commercial juice with the wild yeast.

 

[BGBC]

Interesting. It does seem low for the ciders/juices I've worked with in the past. All have been around 1.055 +/- 0.002.

My wild cider is still chugging along after 2+ weeks (took 3+ days for the first bubbles to appear) and I'm getting a lot of the sulfuric/rhino fart smells coming out of the airlock. Hoping that calms down and doesn't impact the final product.

FWIW, I recently racked my wild cider (no added yeast) and it was only down to 1.008 after ~2 months. I topped it up with some fresh AJ to reduce the headspace, so that's probably higher now.

Was pretty surprised to see it still so high. Taste was good, a little tart balanced with the apple flavor. Still a mild sulfur odor, but not terrible.

 

[rowan57]

Very interesting BGBC, I will try and take a reading of one of my wild ciders next weekend if I remember, the timing is about the same so it would be interesting to compare. Mine were certainly sulfury to start with, but I think that has dropped significantly.

 

[Biobrewer]

Please let me know how this turns out! This is awesome! Super pumped to hear how these strains/blends do in cider.

 

[BGBC]

FWIW, I recently racked my wild cider (no added yeast) and it was only down to 1.008 after ~2 months. I topped it up with some fresh AJ to reduce the headspace, so that's probably higher now.

Was pretty surprised to see it still so high. Taste was good, a little tart balanced with the apple flavor. Still a mild sulfur odor, but not terrible.

Just checking back in here. I noticed today that this airlock was bubbling again, 3-4 times a minute. I also added some nutrient about 2 weeks ago, but it took several weeks for it to kick back up again.

Maybe I should have left it in primary longer, but there was a lot of lees built up and it hadn't shown any sign of activity for a month or so.

 

[brwagur]

Subscribed. Also, I have my first batches of funky cider bottle conditioning as we speak. 1 gallon cider fermented with my sourdough starter; 1 gallon with wyeast 3724, brett lambicus, and lacto; and 1 gallon mostly wild fermented because I didn't pitch any yeast but I probably cross contaminated it at some point a couple months down the road with the second batch because I am a goofus and forgot to sanitize my wine thief.

 

[CorporateHippie]

I made a batch if cider four weeks back. I also mini-mashed 1/2# carapils and 1# golden naked oats with it. Then added 2# of brown sugar. OG was 1.074. I pitched only wyeast Brett B. And let it ferment warm at 74. Checked last week when I noticed activity had stopped. Gravity was at 1.000 !!! In only three weeks!! Taste was dry as you would expect from 1.000 but flavor was good. I bottled all of it except one gallon which I put in a jug with some whisky soaked oak chips.

 

[brwagur]

My friend made a 100% brett b cider a month or so ago. Turned out real crisp and tasty. Now he's fermenting a three gallon batch with WLP575 and brett b. He's gonna age it on oak cubes, I believe.

 

[Qhrumphf]

A couple weeks ago I check gravity and tasted my spontaneous ferment cider that I've had since the fall (unpasteurized orchard cider, no added yeast or bugs, just what was already in there). I let it go for maybe 2 months in primary, where it hit 0.999 and tasted like sulfury ass, before I racked it off the less (of which there wasn't much). It's been sitting since, and when I just checked it it had dropped to 0.998 (where I'm guessing it's probably going to stay), but the sulfur notes are almost entirely gone (a hint instead of a punch in the face), and it's got some neat fruit and funk note going. I was initially worried it was going to be a dumper. I'm planning on waiting until late spring and then bottling it.

 

[datcv]

A lot of people hate on the champagne yeasts but I personally think they make the best dry ciders (also my favorite style). I've been experimenting with a few this year and so far I am very happy with the DV10 cider I made. Keep the temperatures below 68 when you ferment.

 

[CorporateHippie]

I made a batch if cider four weeks back. I also mini-mashed 1/2# carapils and 1# golden naked oats with it. Then added 2# of brown sugar. OG was 1.074. I pitched only wyeast Brett B. And let it ferment warm at 74. Checked last week when I noticed activity had stopped. Gravity was at 1.000 !!! In only three weeks!! Taste was dry as you would expect from 1.000 but flavor was good. I bottled all of it except one gallon which I put in a jug with some whisky soaked oak chips.

I should mention that I re-used the yeast cake from that and poured more apple juice along with 2# of brown sugar (same recipe as the original just minus the grist). This time I am going to ferment at 62 and see if the 12 degree swing will do anything to fermentation time, final gravity, and/or flavor.

ALSO....the oaked version of the Brett Cider will come in just over 10% ABV !!

 

[brwagur]

I tasted the sourdough starter cider last night: It's fantastic. Crisp, dry, refreshing, and still has some apple flavor. There's the faintest bit of alcohol heat, but that's probably because I fermented too warm at the start of fermentation (like, very warm, in a misguided attempt to bring out some lacto character. D'oh!) and I suspect that it will age out. 10/10 would brew again. I think I've found a new house yeast strain, now I just need to try it in a beer.

 

[rowan57]

That sounds good! Time for an update on this thread, I have sampled all the ciders today. All including the wild ciders fermented out to 1.000 giving an ABV across the board of 5.25%.

With the apple juice used, these were always going to be fairly neutral ciders which in turn should allow the yeast / bacteria to shine. There is certainly a big difference.

Wallonian Farmhouse - Neutral, dry, little funk, low acidity.

Brett Brux - Good flavour, slightly more acidity than Wallonian.

Melange - More of an alcohol kick, good funky flavour, nice acidity.

Farmhouse WLP 670 - Funky, tasty, very nice.

Amalgamation - As above, very good.

Wild Ciders - All 3 demi's have similar characteristics reminiscent of the WLP 670 and Amalgamation ciders and are very good. I wouldn't hesitate to wild ferment again.

These ciders will have to wait a while until they get bottled so they may well develop further over time, however at this point all are pleasant and drinkable. My recommendations (against my personal taste in Cider) would be WLP 670 and Amalgamation. The YeastBay yeasts performed very well in the cider overall however based on these experiments I would not personally recommend Wallonian Farmhouse for Cider (if you're taste in cider is similar to mine, funky) as it is too neutral.