Cider Help Appreciated

[Morrey]

LHBS is doing an onsite fresh apple pressing day and I have pre-ordered 12G juice which will be sulfite added on request during packaging.

I need info on yeast starters as I have two packs of WLP English Cider Yeast on hand for this 12G batch. Regarding starters, I'd like to go ahead and pitch the next day (24 hours after adding sulfites) so I can get the ferment underway. So, should I buy two liters of apple juice to build this starter, crash and decant to be ready? Or will a simple 1.040 dry malt starter work ok since I'll decant the spent wort off the yeast?

Yeast nutrients/yeast energizers and pectin enzymes. Are they recommended or suggested? If they may be considered helpful, how/when/how much should they be used? I'll be dry hopping if this has any impact on the above.

Thanks for helping!!

 

[MarkKF]

My starter is just 1/2 gal. fresh juice in a gal. jug. I add liquid yeast or rehydrated dry yeast. I shake every 4-6 hours. After 24-36 hours if there is active fermentation I add to the fermentation vessel.

 

[Morrey]

My starter is just 1/2 gal. fresh juice in a gal. jug. I add liquid yeast or rehydrated dry yeast. I shake every 4-6 hours. After 24-36 hours if there is active fermentation I add to the fermentation vessel.

When I get home, the 12G of juice I get will have sulfites so that needs to settle out a day before I can make a starter with some of this same juice. I was hoping to have the starter done and crashed so I can pitch the next day. This will throw me off several days. Looking for options to build a starter with juice or wort other than what I get at the LHBS.

 

[ten80]

Maybe you're thinking of this wrong. Sulfites release SO2 which offgasses rather than settles out. Granted, a small portion of the SO2 will bind to organic material, but that portion becomes essentially inert and doesn't pose a problem to yeast.

So jere's a solution. Take 1/2 gal of juice from your 12 Gal total and put it in a plastic jug or bottle. Shake the juice like crazy every half hour to help offgas the SO2 from the sulfites. You can also warm it a little (80-90F). This will accelerate the offgassing.

Pitch your two packets of yeast into the juice after about 8 hours. The SO2 should have dissipated. Do the shake every few hours for 8-10 hours until you see activity, then pitch in your juice. I believe that nutrients are not needed and are actually detrimental to cider as they result in too rapid of a fermentation. Refer to Claude Jolicoeur's The New Cidermaker's Handbook or his other online materials for a more detailed explanation.

Keep a permeable covering on the 12 gal container of juice so that SO2 can offgas. I use saran-wrap and a rubber band as the wrap is gas-permeable but keeps flies out.

As for pectic enzyme, you can add this any time before adding yeast. You'll get a hole lot of lees as a result of the pectin precipitating out of solution but these lees will compact nicely over a month or so.

 

[phug]

go ahead and make a starter using a bottle of apple juice from the grocery store. check the label for preservatives, but likely there won't be anything added other than ascorbic acid (which is totally fine) it's pasteurized if it's on the shelf instead of the refrigerated section.

You'll get your starter going while you wait for your sulphites to offgas.

 

[MarkKF]

go ahead and make a starter using a bottle of apple juice from the grocery store. check the label for preservatives, but likely there won't be anything added other than ascorbic acid (which is totally fine) it's pasteurized if it's on the shelf instead of the refrigerated section.

You'll get your starter going while you wait for your sulphites to offgas.

True. I’ve also used FAJC + Water. Lately I’ve tried to have everything fresh from the orchard. Even with Sulfates or K-Meta a commercial yeast will power thru. It’s superyeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't add any chemicals to my cider, except gelatin IF needed to clarify and xylitol IF needed to sweeten. That's it. Don't need anything else.

 

[Morrey]

go ahead and make a starter using a bottle of apple juice from the grocery store. check the label for preservatives, but likely there won't be anything added other than ascorbic acid (which is totally fine) it's pasteurized if it's on the shelf instead of the refrigerated section.

You'll get your starter going while you wait for your sulphites to offgas.

I'll do this after looking for a preservative free commercial AJ. I can have my starter fermented out, crashed and ready to decant when the fresh juice comes in and pitch the next day. I'll pick up on a Sat morn and by Sun morn the sulphites in juice should be off gassed and ready to pitch.

While we are on the subject.....do folks oxygenate the juice with O2 like beer? Are yeast nutrients or yeast energizers commonly used?

 

[ten80]

I don't add either O2 or nutrients in order to keep the fermentation slow. The problem I find with fermenting cider is that it is difficult to keep the fermentation slow and almost any juice will ferment out to 1.000 or below even without nutrients.

That said, I do use 1/4 tsp Go-Ferm when rehydrating dry yeasts.

 

[Morrey]

I don't add either O2 or nutrients in order to keep the fermentation slow. The problem I find with fermenting cider is that it is difficult to keep the fermentation slow and almost any juice will ferment out to 1.000 or below even without nutrients.

That said, I do use 1/4 tsp Go-Ferm when rehydrating dry yeasts.

This is only my second cider so I'm still finding my way. Last one was with bottled AJ and I used Cotes de Blanc yeast which finished out below 1.000 so I am understanding your suggestions. That cider seemed to have lost much of its apple flavor finishing so dry. I bought English Cider yeast for this one so I'll at least hope for a better batch than my last. Good tips and thank you!

 

[MindenMan]

Search for "Yooper" and see how she processes her juice. She basically puts a towel over a bucket to let the CO2 off-gas and she aerates every day until the must gets to 1.020 IIRC, and then she moves the must into a carboy.

 

[Drewed]

I use DME starters for my ciders all the time. I find no issues with it. Just use a light or sparkling, not a dark. I have been bringing back a used yeast from last year, so I am overbuilding my starters. I do a 10 to one ( 10ml of water to 1g of dme ) with some go ferm (to help with the overbuild,) and usally a little fermcap to keep the foam down. 24hrs ish on the stir plate and cold crash.

 

[MarkKF]

When I get home, the 12G of juice I get will have sulfites so that needs to settle out a day before I can make a starter with some of this same juice. I was hoping to have the starter done and crashed so I can pitch the next day. This will throw me off several days. Looking for options to build a starter with juice or wort other than what I get at the LHBS.

I've also done it with a can of FAJC + 3 cans of water.

 

[madscientist451]

I'd split the 12 gallons of cider into two 5.5 gallon batches and that leaves 1 gallon left over.
Pitch your WL Dry Cider yeast into one 5.5 gallon batch and pitch WL 002 or dry So4 into the other batch. Let the 1 gallon batch ferment with whatever wild yeast is in it an see how it comes out. Making 5.5 gallon batches works out for racking/clearing/aging. When its done fermenting, rack the cider into 5 gallon carboys, filling them all the way up.
I'd be tempted to not use any potassium metabisulfite, but since your just starting out I can see why you would want to.
Get some "simply apple" from your local grocery store and use that to make a starter, if you really want one. Shake up the yeast and pitch the whole thing in when you are ready, no need to cold crash and decant it.
If you can find some more juice, you can just dump it the same carboy after you rack off the first batch, I've done this many times with WL English Cider yeast and WL 002.

 

[Morrey]

I'd split the 12 gallons of cider into two 5.5 gallon batches and that leaves 1 gallon left over.
Pitch your WL Dry Cider yeast into one 5.5 gallon batch and pitch WL 002 or dry So4 into the other batch. Let the 1 gallon batch ferment with whatever wild yeast is in it an see how it comes out. Making 5.5 gallon batches works out for racking/clearing/aging. When its done fermenting, rack the cider into 5 gallon carboys, filling them all the way up.
I'd be tempted to not use any potassium metabisulfite, but since your just starting out I can see why you would want to.
Get some "simply apple" from your local grocery store and use that to make a starter, if you really want one. Shake up the yeast and pitch the whole thing in when you are ready, no need to cold crash and decant it.
If you can find some more juice, you can just dump it the same carboy after you rack off the first batch, I've done this many times with WL English Cider yeast and WL 002.

Great tips!

Simply Apple...killer idea!! Using real AJ instead of DME will kind of eliminate the pressing need to decant. Ok, I like that idea!

 

[MarkKF]

Around here 64 oz. of Simply Apple cost the same as a gallon of fresh pressed.

 

[MarkKF]

This is my starters 24 hours after adding dry yeast
View attachment IMG_7015.jpg
And this is my juice 6 hours after adding the starter, 36 hours after K-Meta was added.
View attachment IMG_7019.jpg

 

[RPh_Guy]

Background: I use Premier Cuvee for 1-gal batches of pasteurized juice & ferment dry/semi-dry & then bottle. For my taste it's excellent and doesn't require aging.

+1 for no additional nutrient or energizer.
I do aerate before pitching. (Side note, I dry pitch and get a krausen within 30-60 minutes! PC doesn't mess around)
At bottling I add malic acid if it needs more tartness.

Obviously your main ingredient is the apple juice/must, I would take note of which apple varieties you get and their relative proportions. Like wine the apple ripeness and growth conditions impact flavor. I kinda wish I had more options for juice supply; I'd love to be able to tweak my juice qualities. I'm stuck trying out different store varieties. I could build a cheap home press but I'm not quite that dedicated yet. Good luck with your second cider-making!

 

[bigdawg86]

Not to thread jack, but I live 10 minutes from "Oak Glen" here in SoCal... I am able to purchase raw same day pressed cider. Is there anything I would need other that cider yeast? I really want to make a 5 gallon batch while still in season but never have attempted cider before. Thanks

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not to thread jack, but I live 10 minutes from "Oak Glen" here in SoCal... I am able to purchase raw same day pressed cider. Is there anything I would need other that cider yeast? I really want to make a 5 gallon batch while still in season but never have attempted cider before. Thanks

Nope, and with raw juice tecnically you dont even need to add yeast. Wild yeast will ferment it although you may get acetic (vinegar) production at some point.

 

[Maylar]

Not to thread jack, but I live 10 minutes from "Oak Glen" here in SoCal... I am able to purchase raw same day pressed cider. Is there anything I would need other that cider yeast? I really want to make a 5 gallon batch while still in season but never have attempted cider before. Thanks

Be sure to ask the orchard people if they add any preservatives. If they add sodium benzoate don't bother with it.

 

[bigdawg86]

Be sure to ask the orchard people if they add any preservatives. If they add sodium benzoate don't bother with it.

Most of the Oak Glen "retail" cider is preservative free and "gently pasteurized"... I noted one farm did have preservative, but they also have 100% raw if you so desire.

 

[Maylar]

Most of the Oak Glen "retail" cider is preservative free and "gently pasteurized"... I noted one farm did have preservative, but they also have 100% raw if you so desire.

Good. I know a fella out there who bought cider from Parrish Orchard and it was preserved with sodium benzoate. He had a hell of a time trying to get it to ferment.