Cider apple trees

[Goblism]

Curious what varieties of apple trees are being recommended for cider? Ordered several fruit trees for a small orchard and have only ordered a Franklin so far that will be dedicated to cider. Also considering an older variety of smokehouse or haralson given that they both are supposedly good cider trees.
My other trees are a honeycrisp, snowsweet, and an unknown tree variety. Likely none of these will make a good cider but may work ok as a blend.

 

[bucketnative]

I see you are looking at the MN Hardy varieties developed by the University of Minnesota, which is good because Minnesota is a lot different than some of the other apple-growing regions. They list Frostbite as a good cider apple, but not sure if that refers to soft cider or hard cider. Might be worthwhile contacting the extension folks at the university about this question.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Here's what Farnum Hill uses in their ciders:
http://www.povertylaneorchards.com/the-orchard/poverty-lane-apple-varieties/
And here's a US resource for purchasing cider (and other) apple trees:
https://www.orangepippin.com/varieties/apples
If you have the chance to try their Wickson single varietal cider, go for it, it's my absolute favorite cider! There's a LCL cidery here in MT that uses McIntosh for blending with other juice & for a single varietal cider, both of which are quite tasty.
Regards, GF.

 

[Kirkwooder]

I make both sweet and hard cider every year. I have tried single variety ciders and have never been overly impressed with the results. When I asked one of the old timers that got me into cider making, he enlightened me to the fact that the best cider is made from a mix of varieties. He also educated me to the fact that the very best ciders are made from apples that would never make market apples. That the truly good cider comes from drop apples. Not the beautiful apples that you find in the super market all shiny and nice, but the ones that fall from the tree and are all bruised and blemished. My ciders are wonderful now, because my wife and I, drive around the surrounding farm land and pick up a truck load of apples, off the ground mostly, and haul them to the local cider mill. The guy that runs the mill presses my cider for 20% of the final product, which he in turn sells to a local cidery.

So I would tell you to grow apples that you like to eat or can market and use your culls for cider. I bet you will be very happy with the final product.

 

[Quaker]

If you’re fermenting it, then definitely opt for some bittersweet varieties. The typical dessert or eating apples have much higher acidity. Once the sugars are eaten up the by yeast, an acidic tang will remain. Last fall I was finally harvesting fruit from my own trees and it makes a considerable difference. Traditional cider apples also have more tannins. I have about 40 trees now, but only 8 or so produced fruit so far. My 2 sharps (Hewe’s/Virginia Crab and Grimes Golden) as the Brits would label them had enough acid to blend with everything else and fall into a target zone for acidity. I’m looking forward to years to come as harvests increase. I bought many of my trees from Cummins Nursery and grafted others by trading scions with others and buying rootstock. Cummins page can be sorted by cider varieties. I don’t have enough experience with individual ones yet to strongly recommend one. But definitely get a bittersweet.

 

[madscientist451]

Looks like the OP is in zone 3-4. I would suggest checking out this Nursery:
https://stlawrencenurseries.com/

I've never ordered from them, but they have an extensive list of hardy trees that would grow in your area.
Note that a recommendation from me in Pennsylvania to grow a particular variety for hard cider might not provide the same results for you. Temperatures, humidity, soil types and other factors can all have an impact on the flavor of the finished cider.
Choosing a tree for disease resistance and one that has a bloom time (and bud out late) after your hard frosts are past are also important considerations.
We had an early spring thaw last year, followed by a late hard frost and the result was that on my property I had zero apples on 30+ trees. Such is the luck of farming. My property lies down in a hollow and I really only get a decent crop every other year, but I didn't get any apples 2 years on a row, so maybe 2019 will bring a change.....
Here's a variety that might work for you:
https://stlawrencenurseries.com/collections/apple-cultivars/products/minnesota-1734-apple

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

I just planted a Doglo crab and an Arkansas Black. I am hoping for a great mix from the two in the years to come. I have read that single varietal ciders from either of these are very good, so I am hoping that together I will make some great cider.

I like cider just straight from store juice, esp. if it has some crabs added. So either way I am upgrading.

 

[Jako]

building a house with an acre lot. looking to add trees for cider. whats a good number of trees to start with?

 

[gregbathurst]

It's better to plant more trees than you will need to account for possible losses due to pests, diseases, accidents with a tractor etc. If you plant 8 you would have a good crop in 8 -10 years.

 

[Jako]

It's better to plant more trees than you will need to account for possible losses due to pests, diseases, accidents with a tractor etc. If you plant 8 you would have a good crop in 8 -10 years.

8-10 years!?! dang but makes sense. so starting with more is a must. accidents with a tractor... i need details hah!

thank you for for the information.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

You can speed up the process in a couple of ways:

1) buy larger trees to start with (2 or 4 years old)

2) plant trees that are on semi-dwarfing rootstock. Most of these cause a tree to be more precocious, i.e. start producing earlier.

 

[Maylar]

Old adage - "The best time to plant apple trees is ten years ago".

 

[Jako]

Old adage - "The best time to plant apple trees is ten years ago".

well at least i have the naked lady below in the advertisement to make me feel better. i still plan on planting the trees.

You can speed up the process in a couple of ways:

1) buy larger trees to start with (2 or 4 years old)

2) plant trees that are on semi-dwarfing rootstock. Most of these cause a tree to be more precocious, i.e. start producing earlier.

i will most likely end up doing something like this. i am always afraid the winters will zap baby trees.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

The bigger trees will be more hardy. Also plan to mulch them well over the winter to protect the root systems.

 

[Jako]

The bigger trees will be more hardy. Also plan to mulch them well over the winter to protect the root systems.

have you planted trees already? sorry goblism we are taking over this thread.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

I have lots of fruit trees and bushes; pears, apples, cherries, perscimon, figs, blackberries, raspberries, grapes, muscadines, etc

 

[Jako]

I have lots of fruit trees and bushes; pears, apples, cherries, perscimon, figs, blackberries, raspberries, grapes, muscadines, etc

very nice. my new house will be like this. big reason i decided to buy land and move.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

It is amazing how much you can grow on 3/4 acre of land if you plan well. Even with all the fruit, I have lots of space. Planning is the key. Do some reading on proper spacing fruit trees for pollination, and how close they can be relative to their root stock.

 

[canuckbrew]

So the number one thing you can do is buy the book:
The New Cider Maker's Handbook: A Comprehensive Guide for Craft Producers

This is the bible for cider. It has tree recommendations for most zones in North America.

You can check out his site for guides and an Excel file for apple blending at http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/.

You don't say what zone you are which has a HUGE impact. The author is in Quebec so USDA zone 4 or so but the book has info on multiple climate areas in North America.

If in a cold climate I strongly suggest getting trees on Bud118. Hardier than Antonokova and don't be scared that they are semi-standard. With pruning, branch bending and heavy cropping you can keep them at whatever size you want and the increased vigor will be WAY better for short growing seasons. For a home grower I'd keep the trees at say 8-12' for easy harvest and plant them 15-20' apart in rows with 15-20' between rows. I like giving them more space then less because it keeps them from growing together and keeps good light and airflow to reduce disease pressure.

Be sure to protect against voles, rabbits and deer. You need to protect the trunk and fence each individual tree or the whole yard.

Cheapest option is to buy Bud118 rootstock and buy/trade for scions and bench graft yourself.

 

[Jako]

this is extremely helpful, i am a big fan of book's. i will be moving in November should give me time to plan out a place for my trees. i have a neat spot i think.

 

[AzOr]

I’d look at planting a few varieties of crabs, Dolgo etc.
Also as others have said, bittersweets or bitter sharps would be great. Many of the free or yard apples you’ll come across are sharps (high in acid) such as Gravensteins, Granny Smiths etc. Those are never hard to come by.
You can easily blend crabs or bittersweets with store juice or free apples and make an excellent cider.

One more thing to consider would be planting English or French perry pears. Those are all but impossible to find. I’ve heard of a few heirloom orchardists who are starting to plant those.

 

[Coriba]

We planted 10 varieties; Wickson, Dolgo, Chiseled Jersey, Porters Perfection, Stoke Red, Tremletts Bitter, Yarlington Mill, Muscadet de Dieppe, Fox Whelp, and Dabinett. Will take years to perfect blends. Will have fruit in a couple of years. Can’t wait.

 

[Jako]

We planted 10 varieties; Wickson, Dolgo, Chiseled Jersey, Porters Perfection, Stoke Red, Tremletts Bitter, Yarlington Mill, Muscadet de Dieppe, Fox Whelp, and Dabinett. Will take years to perfect blends. Will have fruit in a couple of years. Can’t wait.

wow! how much land are you on?

 

[dmtaylor]

We planted 10 varieties; Wickson, Dolgo, Chiseled Jersey, Porters Perfection, Stoke Red, Tremletts Bitter, Yarlington Mill, Muscadet de Dieppe, Fox Whelp, and Dabinett. Will take years to perfect blends. Will have fruit in a couple of years. Can’t wait.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. ....and bittersharp.

 

[Coriba]

Yes, excited. I know nothing about these apples but I am told all are classic cider apples. I may ask later suggestion in how to blend.

These ten trees don’t take up much land, easy to do in a large yard.

 

[Jako]

Yes, excited. I know nothing about these apples but I am told all are classic cider apples. I may ask later suggestion in how to blend.

These ten trees don’t take up much land, easy to do in a large yard.

trying to decide what i should plant, i move in 2 months but will have a few more months to plan out my apple trees. 10 trees sounds like a ton of work am i wrong?

 

[Coriba]

It’s work to plant them for sure, only have to do that once. I have not harvested anything yet.

 

[AzOr]

I’m jealous. I’d love to have acreage to plant cider and perry trees!

 

[Quaker]

trying to decide what i should plant, i move in 2 months but will have a few more months to plan out my apple trees. 10 trees sounds like a ton of work am i wrong?

I started with 10. Those are mostly now producing. Now I have 40. I don't feel there's incremental work, but the majority still aren't producing yet, so I haven't experienced what harvesting could be like. i use the same spray regimen on all whether producing or not. I suppose there is a stair step of effort and equipment somewhere between 1-2 and 10.

 

[Jako]

I started with 10. Those are mostly now producing. Now I have 40. I don't feel there's incremental work, but the majority still aren't producing yet, so I haven't experienced what harvesting could be like. i use the same spray regimen on all whether producing or not. I suppose there is a stair step of effort and equipment somewhere between 1-2 and 10.

thank you for the reply, i just don't want another full time job! wife would kill me if i had apples all over the place.

 

[wasully]

It's better to plant more trees than you will need to account for possible losses due to pests, diseases, accidents with a tractor etc. If you plant 8 you would have a good crop in 8 -10 years.

For standard trees. No way smaller semi dwarfs, or dwarfs take anywhere near that long.

 

[gregbathurst]

For standard trees. No way smaller semi dwarfs, or dwarfs take anywhere near that long.

Dwarf trees bear sooner but don't grow quicker (in fact they grow slower) so the crop from 8 dwarf trees after 10 years would be smaller than the crop from 8 standard trees.

 

[madscientist451]

[QUOTE="Jako, post: 8672303, member: 245850" 10 trees sounds like a ton of work am i wrong?[/QUOTE]
If you have deer in your area, putting up a fence is a lot of work and a big expense.
Here in PA we have lots of disease pressure and even if I choose disease resistant varieties there is some spraying involved. Then you have bugs and rodents, pruning, staking, mowing around the trees and mulching or spraying herbicide around the trees and the fence.
So if you don't want to do any "work" don't plant fruit trees.
I don't consider my efforts gardening/orcharding/cidermaking/brewing as work but everyone looks at things differently.
Just my observations, your results may vary.

 

[wasully]

Dwarf trees bear sooner but don't grow quicker (in fact they grow slower) so the crop from 8 dwarf trees after 10 years would be smaller than the crop from 8 standard trees.

Sure, in what is probably a much much larger space. You'd want to compare the amount of space cultivated more than number of trees.

I would consider wildlife pressure and your ideal crop size first though. I may not want to deal with standard or big semi dwarf trees. But deer and elk pressure where I'm at kinda dictate big trees or great fences.

Elk tree murder aside, from purely a capacity standpoint, there's no point to having 8 standard trees giving you 300 gallons of cider if you only wanted 30.

 

[gregbathurst]

Sure, in what is probably a much much larger space. You'd want to compare the amount of space cultivated more than number of trees.

I would consider wildlife pressure and your ideal crop size first though. I may not want to deal with standard or big semi dwarf trees. But deer and elk pressure where I'm at kinda dictate big trees or great fences.

Elk tree murder aside, from purely a capacity standpoint, there's no point to having 8 standard trees giving you 300 gallons of cider if you only wanted 30.

Can you ever have too many cider apples? Not in my opinion. Of curse if you lack space for big trees, dwarf trees make sense. I don't have elk but I do have wallabies, who love to pull down apple branches to eat the leaves and buds. A couple of years ago I put up a six foot fence to protect my orchard, works really well. Now I also put insect netting over my trees to keep out birds and insects, that also works really well, cheaper than buying a tree sprayer.

 

[dmf38]

Wickson, Golden Russet, Hewes, Northern Spy, Baldwin, Dolgo.

 

[Yooper]

I grow dwarf rescue, centennial, and dolgo crabapple trees. They give plenty of fruit, and make awesome cider.
Of course, I have to have a fence because the deer actually will push me aside to get to them if I've got it opened for harvesting! Because they grow quite wide, the fence has to be expanded. I did that for about 12 or so years, but now the branches are pushing at the fences and I'm ok with it. These trees were planted in 2001. They are way overripe now, but they are still delicious! Good size for eating as well as winemaking.

 

[denverdan]

Sure, in what is probably a much much larger space. You'd want to compare the amount of space cultivated more than number of trees.

I would consider wildlife pressure and your ideal crop size first though. I may not want to deal with standard or big semi dwarf trees. But deer and elk pressure where I'm at kinda dictate big trees or great fences.

Elk tree murder aside, from purely a capacity standpoint, there's no point to having 8 standard trees giving you 300 gallons of cider if you only wanted 30.

How have you delt with the deer and elk? I would have had apples ready to press by now had it not been for those annoying friends. The elk go through just about anything to get to the apple trees.... almost like growing crack to them. I'm still trying though and changing up how I protect the cider trees.

 

[wasully]

How have you delt with the deer and elk?

"My" trees are at a friends property, where they have a couple of outdoor dogs.

In the area it's pretty common to put up a 5 ft fence a few feet around the trunk until a tree is established enough an exploratory elk won't kill it. Maybe it's chainlink, maybe it's some 4x4(or 6) perimeter at 2, 4 and 6 feet high and a few feet away from the trunk.

 

[madscientist451]

Fencing off a whole orchard with something that is high enough that deer can't jump over is pretty expensive. I use the 4-5' high circle around the tree method.
The deer won't jump into the small circle surrounding the tree.
My sisters live in Colorado and tell me the Elk just can't be stopped. They'll push over any fence and are protected so you can't shoot them.
I was at a tree nursery today and they sold a nitrogen fertilizer called Milorganite:

They put it in small cotton bags and hang one bag from each newly planted tree. The Milorganite has a strong smell and I suppose that keeps the deer away.
Note that this grower has thousands of trees and has been there for several generations, so I figure they know what they are doing.
Here are the bags they use:

The bags need to be changed after 2-3 months.
I bought a bag of the Milorganite and 100 bags so I'll report back at the end of the season if it works.
The commercial grower also said that LEAD (specifically .30/06) is the best deterrent. I prefer 308, but everyone has their personal preferences.