Cider/Apfelwein - Avoiding Rhino Farts for SWMBO

[Thunder_Chicken]

I am kicking off a batch of cider/apfelwein tomorrow - 6 gallons of pasteurized apple juice (no preservatives) and probably Nottingham (or maybe Montrachet, I'm torn). I'm also planning to do this without added sugar, but I am still considering that as well.

I've read of the "rhino fart" phenomenon and want to avoid it to stay in SWMBO's good graces. I've read that this is associated with the yeasts, and can be controlled by providing yeast nutrients.

I have also read that yeast nutrients can be as simple as boiled dead yeast or raisins. I have a half-pack of Danstar Windsor ale yeast which I could easily kill in boiling water and pitch if that would help.

Can anyone guide me through a strategy to avoid the rhino farts?

 

[UpstateMike]

I don't know about using dead yeast.

If you use raisins, make sure they are preservative free. Get about 1/2 cup, boil them, drain, let cool to room temp, cut them in half (for more surface area) and add them to the carboy.

The easiest way is to go to your LHBS and buy some yeast nutrient. Follow the directions on the bottle.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Stressed out yeast in a nutrient poor environment is the MAIN cause of this smelly problem. Sacrificing the half pack of Windsor is actually not a bad idea, but probally won't provide enough for a 6 gallon batch. I would reccomend grabbing yeast nutrient from your LHBS, but failing that, Upstate Mike is right on with some rasins. Good luck!

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I do have raisins. That is easy enough. I think the 1/2 pack of yeast should just go in the trash - probably would be useable but dumping dead yeast in a fermenter doesn't seem right.

I made a 1-gal batch of Apfelwein that is still in primary. While the smell wasn't bad at all, I did get hints of sulfur from the airlock. I'm slowly bringing SWMBO around to the whole homebrew thing and don't want to do anything to sour the experience. She isn't much of a drinker, but when I described what apfelwein was she said she would like HER apfelwein carbonated, so I think she is warming up to this. I'm happy to brew something that she might enjoy as she doesn't go for beer at all.

Thanks for the sanity check!

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

OK, I just primaried 6-gallons of juice with 1/2 cup of boiled raisins and a package of Nottingham. OG was 1.050. I put a blow-off tube on just in case, because 6-gallons is a pretty full primary and Nottingham can crank when it wants to. See you in a few months!

 

[ToiletBrew]

This yeast nutrient. Are there different types or are they all the same. The one I see says food grade Urea and Ammonium Phospate. I don't mind the piss, but I'm not thrilled about the ammonium anything.

WHAT SAY YE?

 

[LBussy]

Nottingham was a good choice for low sulfur, and it's an excellent apple cider yeast. I should have used it last time but I opted for the Montrachet and ... yeow!

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Nottingham was a good choice for low sulfur, and it's an excellent apple cider yeast. I should have used it last time but I opted for the Montrachet and ... yeow!

Don't you have to start using wine yeasts if you boost sugar up into the 9-10% ABV range?

Speaking of which, I need to check the gravity in my 1-gallon of EdWort's apfelwein. It has been in the carboy only 2+ weeks and it looks like the Montrachet yeast is dropping out already. It isn't crystal clear yet, but it is getting there rapidly. This is my first ferment with Montrachet and I was expecting a few more weeks of activity. I hope it hasn't petered out.

 

[LBussy]

Don't you have to start using wine yeasts if you boost sugar up into the 9-10% ABV range?

I think Nottingham is well capable of that sort of tolerance, anecdotal I know of several brewers who have used this for Imperial Stouts and the like. When it's done it's done however, clearing very well - so making sure it can GET done would be the key I believe. Follow Danstar's rehydration recommendations and at that level 2 packets might be in order.

Speaking of which, I need to check the gravity in my 1-gallon of EdWort's apfelwein. It has been in the carboy only 2+ weeks and it looks like the Montrachet yeast is dropping out already. It isn't crystal clear yet, but it is getting there rapidly. This is my first ferment with Montrachet and I was expecting a few more weeks of activity. I hope it hasn't petered out.

I had a 5 gallon batch finish dry after 1 week with Montrachet. It has a voracious appetite when treated well. At two weeks it went into the secondary with sparkaloid, stabilizers and back-sweetening, after four weeks total it is crystal clear. I mean CRYSTAL clear, not the "clear enough" a lot of folks settle for. Like read newsprint through a 5-gallon carboy clear.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Go with Nottingham yeast, 1 pk is enough, and use yeast nutrient & yeast energizer and/or DAP (diammonium phosphate).
Ferment on the cool side if you can & you should pretty much eliminate any "rhino farts."
Regards, GF.

 

[zachattack]

This yeast nutrient. Are there different types or are they all the same. The one I see says food grade Urea and Ammonium Phospate. I don't mind the piss, but I'm not thrilled about the ammonium anything.

WHAT SAY YE?

That's what yeast nutrient is, sounds fine to me.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I had a 5 gallon batch finish dry after 1 week with Montrachet. It has a voracious appetite when treated well. At two weeks it went into the secondary with sparkaloid, stabilizers and back-sweetening, after four weeks total it is crystal clear. I mean CRYSTAL clear, not the "clear enough" a lot of folks settle for. Like read newsprint through a 5-gallon carboy clear.

I'm about there with my Apfelwein batch as well. I can read through it, though it is still a *little* hazy (clear text but looking through light brown tinted glasses). I pitched a whole packet in one gallon, so it may be getting there. I'll pull a hydrometer sample this coming weekend and see where it is at.

EDIT: I actually just got off my butt and pulled a sample of my Apfelwein. SG is 1.002! I poured most of the sample back but took an obligatory sip - nice & smooth, a little tangy but no alcohol heat at all. Drinking that with a straw out of the primary would not be a hardship at all. No wonder everyone is going on about it. I don't know how it will make it through full aging.

My kitchen temperatures are are generally mid 60s with no real changes as we're still in heating season. I'll have to keep an eye on things when the weather warms up and I have to decide when to turn the AC on, but right now everything should be pretty optimal. I pitched the Nottingham last night and the blowoff is bubbling away *really* hard now (jacuzzi-like!), no smell except for a faint apple smell.

The yeasties seem happy!

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

This actually leads to another question - during the summer my house temperatures generally climb a bit to low to mid 70s. Is Montrachet a better yeast sulfur and ester-wise if the temperatures climb into that range?

 

[LBussy]

I would think that anything which stresses the yeast will generate more sulfur. Red Star says the 'ideal fermentation temp' is 59-86°F so in theory your ranges sound fine. In practice I'd think higher temps would exacerbate any faults.

For what it's worth I think I have made my last batch of anything with Montrachet. I'm sure it's a great yeast for a more experienced wine maker. I ain't that person.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I did detect some sulfur stink when I popped off the airlock for the apfelwein - definitely not what I normally smell when brewing beer. I think the temperatures and small batch saved me from major rhino farts.

 

[devianttouch]

My first batch of Apfelwien had TERRIBLE rhino farts, but I like the taste a lot so on my second round I used a bit of Fermax (1 tsp to 2.5 gallons) and a cooler temperature (first batch was at 70, switched to my basement which is 58-60 degrees). Still using Montrachet yeast. It's been in primary 9 days now, and no sulfur smell at all. I used exactly the same juice and corn sugar. Combination of yeast nutrient and lower fermenting temp did the trick for me.

I know that the lower temp is likely to make the fermentation take longer. I'm okay with that.

 

[gstrawn]

This yeast nutrient. Are there different types or are they all the same. The one I see says food grade Urea and Ammonium Phospate. I don't mind the piss, but I'm not thrilled about the ammonium anything.

WHAT SAY YE?

The urea and ammonium are used to supply nitrogen to the yeast. If used correctly there are no off flavors. If it ruined coders people would be screaming not to put pee and windex flavors in your ciders.

 

[UpstateMike]

Don't you have to start using wine yeasts if you boost sugar up into the 9-10% ABV range?

I have successfully done 12% using Nottingham.

 

[jeranis]

I have successfully done 12% using Nottingham.

My cyser is currently 13+%
1.145 to 1.040
Which leads me to my own topic...

 

[ToiletBrew]

Ok. I have limited time, money and freedom. I just pulled out a small box of supplies from the last time I made beer in 2003. Will any of these supplies reduce Rhino farts? I know I could just look all this up, but I'm big into getting advice from real people.
Tartaric Acid?
Tannin?
Irish moss?
Sparkloid?

 

[CiderRules]

Ok. I have limited time, money and freedom. I just pulled out a small box of supplies from the last time I made beer in 2003. Will any of these supplies reduce Rhino farts? I know I could just look all this up, but I'm big into getting advice from real people.
Tartaric Acid?
Tannin?
Irish moss?
Sparkloid?

As said before, Rhino farts are from stressed yeasties producing sulfur dioxide.

The acid and tannin are good for balancing the taste while the moss and sparkalloid are good for clearing. Though, neither are good for your purposes. Pick up some energizer/nutrient from your LHBS.

 

[tg123]

I don't know about using dead yeast.

If you use raisins, make sure they are preservative free. Get about 1/2 cup, boil them, drain, let cool to room temp, cut them in half (for more surface area) and add them to the carboy.

The easiest way is to go to your LHBS and buy some yeast nutrient. Follow the directions on the bottle.

Do you drain the water after boiling and only add the cut up raisins? Thanks for the tip. Going to try a 1gal batch of this tonight.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Do you drain the water after boiling and only add the cut up raisins?

I'm not sure if it matters, but I chopped the dry raisins, boiled them all in a bit of water to hydrate and sanitize them, and threw the raisins and water into the primary. It was maybe 1/2 cup of water, and I would assume the raisins steep in the cider anyway so boiling out a little of their nutrients into solution wouldn't be the end of the world; perhaps might be beneficial.

Or I could have screwed up everything. Maybe I made raisin-flavored cider (hmmm...maybe not so bad?).

1/2 cup of anything in 6 gallons of juice - I'm reminded of the phrase "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Ok. I have limited time, money and freedom.

Are you exchanging homebrew for smokes in the state penitentiary? I hope your nickname doesn't refer to your covert primary fermenter in your cell.

 

[tg123]

I'm not sure if it matters, but I chopped the dry raisins, boiled them all in a bit of water to hydrate and sanitize them, and threw the raisins and water into the primary. It was maybe 1/2 cup of water, and I would assume the raisins steep in the cider anyway so boiling out a little of their nutrients into solution wouldn't be the end of the world; perhaps might be beneficial.

Or I could have screwed up everything. Maybe I made raisin-flavored cider (hmmm...maybe not so bad?).

1/2 cup of anything in 6 gallons of juice - I'm reminded of the phrase "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".

Thanks! I just did the same. I made a 1gal batch in the jug the apple juice came in. Added the cooled boiled raisins. 6.4oz dextrose. ~1/5 packet yeast. shake shake shake. Airlock and pray.

 

[tg123]

:smack: forgot to take a gravity reading.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

:smack: forgot to take a gravity reading.

You can take an OG now, won't hurt anything really.

 

[tg123]

You can take an OG now, won't hurt anything really.

cool thx. gonna do it now.

1.068. Does that sound right? Seems a bit low doesn't it?
EDIT: Looked it up and it seems to be around the right ballpark. I guess it varies depending on how much corn sugar I put in.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

cool thx. gonna do it now.

1.068. Does that sound right? Seems a bit low doesn't it?
EDIT: Looked it up and it seems to be around the right ballpark. I guess it varies depending on how much corn sugar I put in.

Yep, mine was about 1.065 using honey.

 

[tg123]

rhino farts weren't avoided with the raisins. maybe I didn't put enough. doesn't seem so bad though. I only smell it when i put my nose up to the airlock. man is that smell nasty. almost as bad as my own farts.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

My apfelwein with Montrachet did kick off some sulfur, but nothing that really lingered. It seems that there is a lot of SO2 gas that has to get shaken out of suspension and that can get a little stinky. My apfelwein was pretty quiet today and there was no off-taste. I gave it one last good shake and put it into storage.

 

[arborman]

Can anyone chime in about the need for a blow off if using Notti yeast in a 5gal carboy (using the sugar)? That's the only yeast I've got on hand, and I'd like to not have to use my 6 gal glass carboy

 

[zachattack]

You should be fine. In my experience, cider gives zero to no krausen since there's no protein to stabilize the foam. On my last batch I topped off my carboy until it was close to full, I was fine with a regular airlock using Notti. It's very different than beer. I did ferment at 55-60 degrees for a couple months.

 

[arborman]

You should be fine. In my experience, cider gives zero to no krausen since there's no protein to stabilize the foam. On my last batch I topped off my carboy until it was close to full, I was fine with a regular airlock using Notti. It's very different than beer. I did ferment at 55-60 degrees for a couple months.

Right on, thanks for the reply! How'd your batch taste using the Notti? Would you use it again?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I have a 6 gallon batch of simple cider (6 gallons of juice and Nottingham yeast, no added sugar). No blowoff needed, but I would be careful if you slosh it as it can release a lot of bubbles all at once. No sulfur at all, and the taste is fabulous right now. A lot of folks use Nottingham in ciders, it's good. It does take a bit longer for Nottingham to attenuate out a cider than an ale - It's been going on about 4 weeks and it is still chipping away at the last few gravity points heading to 1.000.

 

[MrMonkey]

I've done four 5 gallon batches w/ this - never needed a blowoff tube. The foam on a couple did come close to neck height so I planned for a spill but wasn't needed.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

It's been going on about 4 weeks and it is still chipping away at the last few gravity points heading to 1.000.

I took a reading on mine yesterday at 37 days and it's sitting at 1.014. It started fermenting around 58ºF and it's sitting at about 64ºF right now. I expect it will take another couple of weeks for it to get 1.005 for kegging.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I have been running in the high 60s in my house and it seems to run better. I just racked it back into the original 1-gallon PET bottles for a little aging and to free up my big fermenter. I need to get some summer brews going!

 

[zachattack]

Right on, thanks for the reply! How'd your batch taste using the Notti? Would you use it again?

Sure would! Notti is clean as hell if you keep the temperature low, and it drops like a rock to give you a very clear product. Even though I had a pretty strong cider / apfelwine (around 11% abv) it fermented clean and carbed up in the bottle within a couple weeks.