Cider 101

[pricelessbrewing]

I've stopped measuring my OG, it's pretty much always 1.050 or at least within 0.005. I'm not fmiliar enough with refractometer to comment on the temperature dependence.

 

[TrickyDick]

Equates to 1.035. I suspect the measurement is erroneous.


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[Yooper]

So I poured the cider into a sanitized bucket last night and added 6 crushed tablets to the approximate 5.5-5.75 gallons (we kept some of the cider in fridge to drink). I took some from the last jug to measure the brix on an atc refractometer in the basement fluorescent lighting. It was 9, but not entirely sure how accurate that is. I forgot to dissolve the crushed tablet in water and sprinkled it on top and let it hydrate a bit, then stirred gently with a sanitized spoon. I think tonight, I'm going to take a hydrometer sample from the blended cider, which I suppose is more accurately called must? Brix of 9 seems low, and I wonder if the fridge temp cider 38-40° combined with the fluorescent lighting was throwing it off..
Planning to use safale s04.
TD


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Before you add the yeast, it is 'must'. After the yeast, it's 'hard cider' or 'cider'.

9 brix does seem low. Did you recheck it with a hydrometer?

 

[TrickyDick]

Rechecked with an el-cheapo hydrometer and was 1.050 at about 75 degrees room temp.

I added the pectin enzyme last night.

Need to bottle some Kegged beer in the dual purpose ferm & serve fridge before I can chill and pitch yeast tonight, so maybe Friday morning before I can pitch.

TD


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edit-

well life got in the way. Lost the stupid tip to my beer gun, rinsed down the drain. The freezer where I was planning to ferment the cider was holding the kegs to be bottled. Finally got cider into fridge last night and there was significant frost. This morning it was a good 10 degrees below where I had it set. Looked up the specs on my yeast and says its good down to 53, so I pitched (at 56), Freezer set to 67 as it tends to overshoot the temp setpoint and the beer gets a few degrees colder than the setpoint. Have the temp probe taped to the side of my plastic bucket with foil duct tape (not the tacky duck tape stuff). Oxygenated and pitched this morning with a few drops of ferm-cap and a half tsp of yeast nutrient. Should've just put it into my chilled conical, but didn't want to expose the plastic to potential wild yeasts or bugs. Now I wait.

How long to expect for primary to finish? Normally at ale temps 3-4 days seems to do it. This is a bit cooler though. 7-10 days? Then rack for aging? Is it critically important to control the temp while aging? I tend to let my beer sit at room temp in most instances after primary fermentation is finished and its been racked into a keg or carboy, typically about 74-78 degrees (part of the ongoing thermostat battle with SWMBO). If I rack to a keg instead of a carboy, I could put it in my serving fridge at 36º(?).

Thanks

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok 7 days into primary fermentation, I'm looking at 1.006 SG, down from 1.050. I de-aerated it by pouring 15 times from one glass to another then into hydrometer. no more bubbles seen.

Tasting the hydrometer sample I note it is cloudy, and pale yellow colored, and has lost some of the darker brown cidery color, likely due to suspended yeast?
Aroma is slightly vinous and apple-like. I think its got a tiny twang to it, but really not much. So, what's next? Time to rack? Crash cool then rack?

Thanks for the help.

TD

 

[kevinb]

I am looking to get a sweet still cider. I am fermenting with D47. After the fermentation stops, can you please reccomend how I sweaten and with what? Do I need to add Potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite before sweetening?

 

[JoshWithrow]

I recently started a cider. I used:

14 cans frozen (thawed, room temp) concentrate (Wal-mart Brand) - fill to 5 gallons
Yeast Nutrient & Energizer
Monterey Jack Cider Yeast (M02)

OG: 1.050 10/13/14
FG: 1.002 10/26/14

It fully fermented in 1 week (under 7 days). I waited for it to clear quite a bit, and then racked into another carboy. It doesn't taste great right now, so I'm hoping that just giving it time will bring it around. Not much apple flavor or aroma - very boring.

Very interesting read by Yooper above. I will keep in mind S04 for future endeavors. Question about that: what temperature do you ferment the S04 at?

 

[Yooper]

Ok 7 days into primary fermentation, I'm looking at 1.006 SG, down from 1.050. I de-aerated it by pouring 15 times from one glass to another then into hydrometer. no more bubbles seen.

Tasting the hydrometer sample I note it is cloudy, and pale yellow colored, and has lost some of the darker brown cidery color, likely due to suspended yeast?
Aroma is slightly vinous and apple-like. I think its got a tiny twang to it, but really not much. So, what's next? Time to rack? Crash cool then rack?

Thanks for the help.

TD

I don't crash cool, but you certainly can if you want. I don't recall which yeast strain you used- it could go quite a bit lower. If you crash cool and keg, it should stay where it is. If you're going to bottle, I'd definitely make sure it is done first.

I am looking to get a sweet still cider. I am fermenting with D47. After the fermentation stops, can you please reccomend how I sweaten and with what? Do I need to add Potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite before sweetening?

Once the cider is completely and totally clear, like read a newspaper through it clear, you can rack to a new vessel into which sorbate and k-meta have been dissolved. Use 1/4 teaspoon of k-meta powder for 6 gallons (or divide, according to your batch size) and 1/2 teaspoon of sorbate per gallon of cider. Let that sit a few days, to ensure it stays clear, and then sweeten to taste. Then, let that sit a few more days to ensure no fermentation starts again, and then bottle.

The way that this "works" is that sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction. That's why you have to wait until the cider is clear, and most of the yeast has fallen out. Then, it's racked off of the lees and the sorbate should stop the yeast from reproducing and so it can't ferment the new sweetener. In an active fermentation or when the cider is cloudy with suspended yeast, the yeast don't need to reproduce so the sorbate "work".

I hope that helps!

 

[kevinb]

I don't crash cool, but you certainly can if you want. I don't recall which yeast strain you used- it could go quite a bit lower. If you crash cool and keg, it should stay where it is. If you're going to bottle, I'd definitely make sure it is done first.




Once the cider is completely and totally clear, like read a newspaper through it clear, you can rack to a new vessel into which sorbate and k-meta have been dissolved. Use 1/4 teaspoon of k-meta powder for 6 gallons (or divide, according to your batch size) and 1/2 teaspoon of sorbate per gallon of cider. Let that sit a few days, to ensure it stays clear, and then sweeten to taste. Then, let that sit a few more days to ensure no fermentation starts again, and then bottle.

The way that this "works" is that sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction. That's why you have to wait until the cider is clear, and most of the yeast has fallen out. Then, it's racked off of the lees and the sorbate should stop the yeast from reproducing and so it can't ferment the new sweetener. In an active fermentation or when the cider is cloudy with suspended yeast, the yeast don't need to reproduce so the sorbate "work".

I hope that helps!

Thanks Yooper that helps a lot. Only question is on the k-meta. I am only doing a 1 gallon trial batch. Based on your instructions that would be 1/24 of a teaspoon. That seems like a very small amount. Is that correct? How many teaspoons is one campden tablet?

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks Yooper!

I am going to crash it. I used safale s04. The sample was incredibly cloudy, and its near fully attenuation I think, and has some residual sweetness.

Need to rack it in a bit and then let it rest for a spell.

Thanks! Something different is always fun!

TD

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper that helps a lot. Only question is on the k-meta. I am only doing a 1 gallon trial batch. Based on your instructions that would be 1/24 of a teaspoon. That seems like a very small amount. Is that correct? How many teaspoons is one campden tablet?

A campden tablet is small, but not that small. They have "binders" in them, and things to make it a convenient size. If you're only doing one gallon batches, that would be the way to go.

Thanks Yooper!

I am going to crash it. I used safale s04. The sample was incredibly cloudy, and its near fully attenuation I think, and has some residual sweetness.

Need to rack it in a bit and then let it rest for a spell.

Thanks! Something different is always fun!

TD

Usually S04 produces a crystal clear cider when it's done- my bet is that it's simply not finished. If you're kegging, and don't have to worry about bottle bombs, then it doesn't matter if you like the level of sweetness.

 

[gotbags-10]

Started my first batch on 10-1 with orchard cider and cider yeast wlp775. It's been a month and not clear yet. However it started completely brown. Was planning on racking to a keg to age. Am I ok to do that or should I let it clear in primary first?

 

[Yooper]

Started my first batch on 10-1 with orchard cider and cider yeast wlp775. It's been a month and not clear yet. However it started completely brown. Was planning on racking to a keg to age. Am I ok to do that or should I let it clear in primary first?

I'm not familiar with that yeast, but if it's done, it should clear in a keg as well as in a carboy.

 

[gotbags-10]

Here it is. It cleared to this point in about 1-2 weeks after starting and has looked the same since. I was thinking about aging in a keg till Christmas

 

[MarkKF]

I'm not familiar with that yeast, but if it's done, it should clear in a keg as well as in a carboy.

I used that cider yeast. Started brown turned orange and finished clear with a yellow tint. Took three months.


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[TrickyDick]

I racked mine. Took a small sample to taste. Seems very young and "green". The color has lightened up significantly, and it is opaque still. The taste was slightly tart, with a very slight sweetness and faint apple aroma and flavors present. I am going to sit on this for several months and take a small taste perhaps monthly. I suspect that I will want to backsweeten to balance the slit tartness if that persists. I also wonder if the natural or wild yeasts had been working on this despite refrigeration, in the time between purchase and pitching, which was about a week, during which I also used the pectic enzyme and metabisulfite.
Keeping fingers crossed!

TD


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[Yooper]

I racked mine. Took a small sample to taste. Seems very young and "green". The color has lightened up significantly, and it is opaque still. The taste was slightly tart, with a very slight sweetness and faint apple aroma and flavors present. I am going to sit on this for several months and take a small taste perhaps monthly. I suspect that I will want to backsweeten to balance the slit tartness if that persists. I also wonder if the natural or wild yeasts had been working on this despite refrigeration, in the time between purchase and pitching, which was about a week, during which I also used the pectic enzyme and metabisulfite.
Keeping fingers crossed!

TD


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It sounds ok. Cider, even when it's sweet, is a bit tart. That's usually due to the natural malic acid in the cider from the apples. Think of something like a Granny Smith apple- it's sweet, but it's also crisp and tart. When the sugar ferments out of the cider, the tartness remains so it seems even more tart than before. If you do choose to sweeten it later, you can adjust the level according to how you like it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Here is a picture from last sample.
It's fully fermented and not much going on. About 2-2.5 months old without checking records.

What's next? What's happening during this cellaring period?

View attachment 1418694310402.jpg

 

[Yooper]

Here is a picture from last sample.
It's fully fermented and not much going on. About 2-2.5 months old without checking records.

What's next? What's happening during this cellaring period?

If it's clear, and no longer dropping lees, it's ready to package if you want. I can't tell the clarity from the picture.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'll take another looks at it. Seems to me it was very very clear.

So once it's clear, I can consider additions such as acid blend, or wine tannin, or backsweeten if I want?
How does a NooB go about such things, especially without stirring up all the lees ! Racking I think is in order. Is oxidization a concern such as with beer?

thanks!

TD

 

[Yooper]

I'll take another looks at it. Seems to me it was very very clear.

So once it's clear, I can consider additions such as acid blend, or wine tannin, or backsweeten if I want?
How does a NooB go about such things, especially without stirring up all the lees ! Racking I think is in order. Is oxidization a concern such as with beer?

thanks!

TD

Yes, oxidation is a huge concern, perhaps even more so than with beer as it tends to age longer.

I use sulfite (campden tablets) at every other racking, which is an antioxidant. It dissipates, so that is why it's added several times.

You can definitely add whatever you want to it. It's easiest to take a sample, and then add items a little at a time and see if you like what it brings to the flavor.

 

[TrickyDick]

Alright!

Well I have no free carboy space at the moment to rack. I think what I'll do is rack a third time to a carboy and add some Campden tabs as before, and see if any more lees drop. I started with 5.5 gallons, so I may have left over that I will use, depending on how much there is, to determine what type of additions I want to do, if any, and maybe I also carbonate a small bottle to see how it's going to taste when carbonated and chilled before doing anything.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Went to check on it today and I think there is a pellicle developing. Grrrr!!!

Well, at least I like sours.... Tonight when I get back from work, I'll take a sample of the flavor, and maybe add some Campden now ?? Maybe that would prevent the souring.

TD

 

[Yooper]

Went to check on it today and I think there is a pellicle developing. Grrrr!!!

Well, at least I like sours.... Tonight when I get back from work, I'll take a sample of the flavor, and maybe add some Campden now ?? Maybe that would prevent the souring.

TD

I'd keg it right now, and hold in the fridge and campden won't hurt!

 

[TrickyDick]

So can I keg it and also add the Campden ? Don't know much about those Campden tablets, they don't release gas or anything?

I will definitely keg it and add the Campden tonight when I'm finished at work. If there is any gas release I can put a spunding valve on it.

Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

OK. Added Campden tablets crushed in some little bit of water. 5.5 tabs as before.
bubbles started going on in the carboy immediately.
Some several minutes later I racked to the keg and then placed in fridge.
tasted the cider and its not awful.
Seems to tasted as it did before.
I had about 2 qts sludge and cider in the bottom of the carboy (It was a 6 gal carboy) after racking to a keg. I poured it into a 2 qt glass jar I had previously used to make starters in and put an airlock on it. when this settles out, I will use it as the basis for any flavor corrections or additions such as lactose, or tannin, or acid blend. I am REALLY wanting to taste the as-is cider cold and carbonated.

What is a typical level of carbonation for cider by the way??

Once again, thanks, especially to Yooper for all the guidance. I was born, raised, and educated (partially) in Michigan (G.R. but before it became such the beer scene it is today) so I feel a little connected to the members (and I assume Yooper lives in the U.P - if not call dip**** from here on...) of the forum in my home state.

TD

 

[Yooper]

OK. Added Campden tablets crushed in some little bit of water. 5.5 tabs as before.
bubbles started going on in the carboy immediately.
Some several minutes later I racked to the keg and then placed in fridge.
tasted the cider and its not awful.
Seems to tasted as it did before.
I had about 2 qts sludge and cider in the bottom of the carboy (It was a 6 gal carboy) after racking to a keg. I poured it into a 2 qt glass jar I had previously used to make starters in and put an airlock on it. when this settles out, I will use it as the basis for any flavor corrections or additions such as lactose, or tannin, or acid blend. I am REALLY wanting to taste the as-is cider cold and carbonated.

What is a typical level of carbonation for cider by the way??

Once again, thanks, especially to Yooper for all the guidance. I was born, raised, and educated (partially) in Michigan (G.R. but before it became such the beer scene it is today) so I feel a little connected to the members (and I assume Yooper lives in the U.P - if not call dip**** from here on...) of the forum in my home state.

TD

Your two quarts of sludge may have a bit of flavor from the lees- but that's a good place to start.

I don't love carbonated cider, but my daughter likes it really spritzy, like champagne almost- maybe 3.8 volumes or thereabouts.

And yep, I'm a Yooper alright!

 

[TrickyDick]

One concern about back sweetening, now that it's trying to form a pellicle, I wonder whatever is doing that if it can chew through lactose.
I read somewhere about using Splenda to backsweeten. I guess that's technically not a true simple sugar anyway?

Going to experiment on the sludge slurry tonight.

TD

 

[Yooper]

One concern about back sweetening, now that it's trying to form a pellicle, I wonder whatever is doing that if it can chew through lactose.
I read somewhere about using Splenda to backsweeten. I guess that's technically not a true simple sugar anyway?

Going to experiment on the sludge slurry tonight.

TD

You added some campden, so hopefully whatever was forming is susceptible to sulfites. It's possible that it could ferment lactose- but if you keep the keg cold the entire time you could sweeten with whatever you want. Honey, brown sugar, more apple cider, etc- the cold temperatures should keep the yeast in check, especially if the cider was clear.

 

[TrickyDick]

It was clear.

I had hoped to bottle at least some of it. Maybe now I'll carbonate and get to desired flavor in the keg and then I can use beer gun. I don't think Brett or typical pedio/lacto can digest Splenda, but honestly I don't really know.

I'm not sure what might have gotten into it.
I've been brewing a lot of sour stuff lately, so I hope I didn't get some equipment mixed up. Been trying to keep everything separate.