Chris White on Starters

[tagz]

On several occasions, I've heard/read Chris White downplay the need for starters (most recently on a basic brewing podcast). He argues that you don't really get a significant increase in population from a 1-2 liter starter. That goes against data from homebrewers that have done actual cell counts (Kai, Woodland, and others). Is he just trying to sell more vials or is his argument valid?

 

[izzie]

It may be considered anecdotal but my personal experience is that fermentation starts earlier and is more vigorous when I use a starter. Starter or not, I'm still buying a vial. Don't see a conflict of interest there.

 

[day_trippr]

The potential conflict comes when that single vial cell count is insufficient for a particular pitch...

Cheers!

 

[feinbera]

The potential conflict comes once that single vial cell count is insufficient for a particular pitch...

This – he doesn't wanna lose the business of the folks who don't wanna play around with starters (myself among them) to the dry yeast guys. I make no comment either way on whether it's a legit concern, but it does seem like a pretty common perception that the White Labs vials do less well than dry yeast just bought and thrown in on brew day.

 

[ba-brewer]

As over pitching is less of an issue compared to under pitching they should just give you enough yeast so you can still direct pitch on the best before date. I think they are switching to pouches so accommodating the extra volume should be less of an issue. There are cost associated with doing a starter so I would be willing to pay a couple extra bucks for the convenience.

 

[CA_Mouse]

He stated that the vials/PurePitch pouches have enough cells for a moderate gravity 5 gallon beer. His statements about starters was positive for brewers that wanted a faster start on pitching just a vial. He, also, mentioned that making a starter for an inexperienced brewer was a way to introduce an infection or off flavors. I spoke with him during NHC this year about the likelihood of introducing off-flavors using a starter and how to avoid it. His comments were consistent with every brewer I've talked with... If your starter is running at 80*F and/or the starter gravity is too high, you will cause stress on the yeast and therefore they can produce off flavors. On over pitching, he said the only danger of doing that is repitching a new beer onto too much slurry. I make starters 90% of the time as a matter of convenience for faster starts on my beers, and sometime to propagate enough yeast for a second starter.

 

[tagz]

He stated that the vials/PurePitch pouches have enough cells for a moderate gravity 5 gallon beer. His statements about starters was positive for brewers that wanted a faster start on pitching just a vial. He, also, mentioned that making a starter for an inexperienced brewer was a way to introduce an infection or off flavors. I spoke with him during NHC this year about the likelihood of introducing off-flavors using a starter and how to avoid it. His comments were consistent with every brewer I've talked with... If your starter is running at 80*F and/or the starter gravity is too high, you will cause stress on the yeast and therefore they can produce off flavors. On over pitching, he said the only danger of doing that is repitching a new beer onto too much slurry. I make starters 90% of the time as a matter of convenience for faster starts on my beers, and sometime to propagate enough yeast for a second starter.

Yeah, he definitely wasn't anti-starter but he often makes the claim that a 1-2 liter starter will not result in significant growth/reproduction. That just doesn't seem truthful at all. I'm just wondering if he knows something we don't know or just wants folks to use more vials rather than propagate their own yeast. Perhaps he worries that once people have a stirplate, they won't buy yeast as often (which I certainly the case for me).

 

[olotti]

I make starters and wash yeast and I'll always do that but that's just me. I get better attenuation and quicker fermentation and the more generations I use the yeast I've found the cleaner and clearer the beer I have. Again just me from what I've experienced washing yeast and making starters.

 

[day_trippr]

[...] the more generations I use the yeast I've found the cleaner and clearer the beer I have.[...]

That sounds like your process selects the more flocculent cells and leaves the slow pokes behind...

Cheers!

 

[olotti]

That sounds like your process selects the more flocculent cells and leaves the slow pokes behind...

Cheers!

I just use the old school way of washing yeast and use an online calculator to establish my starter size and i use the date it was washed as the viability or born on date and so far so good and I don't even use a stir plate. Although I will b getting one soon. I guess it's an if it ain't broke don't fix it thing even though there may be more efficient or less expensive ways.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Is it weird that I trust braukaiser more than him saying that. I mean I guess it depends on what he means by "significant" but starting with 70B and ending with 270B would be rather significant imo..

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

I think the question of production date / remaining viability comes into play. If you can happen to get a fresh vial or Smack pack for an under 1.060 beer then maybe a starter is not needed. But If you OG is over that or your vial is more than a couple months old, then a starter is probably a good idea to ensure live yeasties. Just my 2 cents

 

[brewprint]

On several occasions, I've heard/read Chris White downplay the need for starters (most recently on a basic brewing podcast). He argues that you don't really get a significant increase in population from a 1-2 liter starter. That goes against data from homebrewers that have done actual cell counts (Kai, Woodland, and others). Is he just trying to sell more vials or is his argument valid?

Most of the vials from WL will say they're adequate for a 5 gallon batch. Which is correct as I see nothing but overkill on yeast counts constantly on this forum.

Personally I don't use any yeast calculators but I do make starters for every batch. They're all starters from yeast harvested from other starters. Always about 4oz of DME and they make a total of a 1.25L starter. That's how I roll even on High Gravity brews.

 

[invictusbrew]

I have heard Chris White bring up and talk about numerous topics that could potentially hurt his business, so I certainly don't think that his comments are or were made in order to get people to buy more vials.... That being said - I make starters for every batch, every time without exception.

EDIT: I also ONLY use liquid yeast.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Most of the vials from WL will say they're adequate for a 5 gallon batch. Which is correct as I see nothing but overkill on yeast counts constantly on this forum.

Personally I don't use any yeast calculators but I do make starters for every batch. They're all starters from yeast harvested from other starters. Always about 4oz of DME and they make a total of a 1.25L starter. That's how I roll even on High Gravity brews.

Key word being adequate. I don't think most brewers aim for adequate beer but rather optimal beer, the best beer they can make. Pitching a good number of healthy yeast and ensuring proper fermentation conditions are usually the two things most said to improve your beer.

 

[Cyclman]

I spoke with him during NHC this year about the likelihood of introducing off-flavors using a starter and how to avoid it. His comments were consistent with every brewer I've talked with... If your starter is running at 80*F and/or the starter gravity is too high, you will cause stress on the yeast and therefore they can produce off flavors.

I would think yeast would be thrilled to grow at 80 degrees. Yes, you'd have lots of esters, you wouldn't want to pitch the starter liquid into your beer for that reason, but if you crash and decant, I would expect this to grow yeast quickly.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I would think yeast would be thrilled to grow at 80 degrees. Yes, you'd have lots of esters, you wouldn't want to pitch the starter liquid into your beer for that reason, but if you crash and decant, I would expect this to grow yeast quickly.

It was 80*F *and/or* too high of a gravity starter wort, not just the higher temperature. The high temperature and a high gravity starter wort or a high gravity starter work can stress the yeast.

 

[brewprint]

Key word being adequate. I don't think most brewers aim for adequate beer but rather optimal beer, the best beer they can make. Pitching a good number of healthy yeast and ensuring proper fermentation conditions are usually the two things most said to improve your beer.

There's not any hard evidence that the propaganda for making gigantic starters actually improves beer.

 

[joshesmusica]

also, there's these:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/29/ye...e-cell-count-vs-vitality-exbeeriment-results/

 

[wobdee]

I don't do starters, I find repitching slurry easier for me but if your doing starters wouldn't it be better to pitch it to your wort while its active at high krausen instead of cold crashing letting the yeast go dormant and decanting?

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't do starters, I find repitching slurry easier for me but if your doing starters wouldn't it be better to pitch it to your wort while its active at high krausen instead of cold crashing letting the yeast go dormant and decanting?

That's what a lot of breweries do is harvest from the krausen because it's the healthiest, most active yeast cells.

 

[FarmerTed]

I don't do starters, I find repitching slurry easier for me but if your doing starters wouldn't it be better to pitch it to your wort while its active at high krausen instead of cold crashing letting the yeast go dormant and decanting?

The problem is that finished starter beer can be nasty, and you don't necessarily want to add that to a beer, especially if you have a big starter going for a lager. When breweries harvest and re-pitch yeast from high krausen, they are getting it from a regular controlled fermentation, and there won't be abnormal amounts of esters or fusel alcohols.

 

[Biobrewer]

White Labs is the contract manufacturer for my company The Yeast Bay, so I want to make sure no one thinks I'm speaking on behalf of White Labs, because I'm not. I definitely respect Chris' opinion and what they have seen work for their products, the guy's a yeast stud. However, when people ask me in relation to Yeast Bay products, I do recommend starters for two reasons:

1) Make more cells, at least according to Kai's model which I trust, and as evidenced by the massively thick layer of yeast in a 2-3 L starter.

2) Even if you don't need a lot more cells, a starter gets the yeast metabolically active and ready to go once pitched. Anecdotally, I have seen shorter lag times when using starters (I don't cold crash and decant, I pitch the entire thing).

 

[pricelessbrewing]

White Labs is the contract manufacturer for my company The Yeast Bay, so I want to make sure no one thinks I'm speaking on behalf of White Labs, because I'm not. I definitely respect Chris' opinion and what they have seen work for their products, the guy's a yeast stud. However, when people ask me in relation to Yeast Bay products, I do recommend starters for two reasons:

1) Make more cells, at least according to Kai's model which I trust, and as evidenced by the massively thick layer of yeast in a 2-3 L starter.

2) Even if you don't need a lot more cells, a starter gets the yeast metabolically active and ready to go once pitched. Anecdotally, I have seen shorter lag times when using starters (I don't cold crash and decant, I pitch the entire thing).

This.

 

[jahdub]

I'd also add that I imagine most people would rather find out their yeast is dead when their starter doesn't do anything than when they've pitched it into 5+ gallons of wort.

 

[Biobrewer]

I'd also add that I imagine most people would rather find out their yeast is dead when their starter doesn't do anything than when they've pitched it into 5+ gallons of wort.

Correct! So called "proofing" the yeast is also a good reason to run a starter.

 

[Rcbandl]

there's not any hard evidence that the propaganda for making gigantic starters actually improves beer.

lol

 

[tagz]

White Labs is the contract manufacturer for my company The Yeast Bay, so I want to make sure no one thinks I'm speaking on behalf of White Labs, because I'm not. I definitely respect Chris' opinion and what they have seen work for their products, the guy's a yeast stud. However, when people ask me in relation to Yeast Bay products, I do recommend starters for two reasons:

1) Make more cells, at least according to Kai's model which I trust, and as evidenced by the massively thick layer of yeast in a 2-3 L starter.

2) Even if you don't need a lot more cells, a starter gets the yeast metabolically active and ready to go once pitched. Anecdotally, I have seen shorter lag times when using starters (I don't cold crash and decant, I pitch the entire thing).

According to his latest interview, Chris would agree with you on your second point. It seems he is simply skeptical of the growth rate for homebrew scale starters. But until he produces some data, I tend to side with the folks who have done cell counts. Plus, as you say, the thick layer of yeast you find at the bottom of the starter reinforces the idea that there is a significant amount of reproduction going on.

 

[55x11]

According to his latest interview, Chris would agree with you on your second point. It seems he is simply skeptical of the growth rate for homebrew scale starters. But until he produces some data, I tend to side with the folks who have done cell counts. Plus, as you say, the thick layer of yeast you find at the bottom of the starter reinforces the idea that there is a significant amount of reproduction going on.

he has plenty of data in his "Yeast" book with Jamil.

I don't think he is arguing against 1L or 2L starters, but starters smaller than ~1L have negligible increase in cell count (much smaller yield).


Key Quote:
“Notice the effect of the small starter. A high concentration of yeast in a small amount of wort results in very little growth. The 500-milliliter starter barely grew, only a fraction of a doubling. The fundamental fact is that yeast cannot grow unless they have enough sugar and nutrients for each cell to divide. While the cells do not multiply much when the inoculation rate is this high, it can still benefit the existing cells. The takeup of sugar, nutrients, oxygen, and the production of compounds such as sterols, improve cell health. Starters rarely have a negative side; even if there is little yeast growth, a starter helps to revive yeast for fermentation by activating metabolism, and therefore fermentation starts faster. If you wanted to achieve a higher yield factor with the 800-milliliter starter, you would need a smaller inoculation rate. As the inoculation rate drops, the yield factor climbs. In this example, once the inoculation rate drops to 67 million/ml (100 billion cells in 1.5 L of wort), significant growth occurs. The yield factor can show us how different propagation parameters affect our process."


Excerpt From: Chris White. “Yeast.”

 

[tagz]

You're right. I guess he does have data out there. It just doesn't seem, from my unscientific eye to mesh with Kai and Woodlands info.

Anyway, to keep the discussion going , here's the quote from the Basic Brewing episode: "It doesn't really generate a lot of new cells, in most people's starters, unless you are doing a fairly big one."

He also kind of scoffs at online yeast calculators, saying that they overestimate.

Here's Neva Parker's slide on yeast growth from her Myth Buster presentation.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1438781904.203100.jpg