Checking temperature at cool down.

[bhunt70]

I brewed for the first time this weekend an one issue I had was getting a consistent temperature reading while cooling down my wort. I cool down in my sink with water and ice and cool down takes about 35 minutes to get down to about 70 degrees.

When I test the temperature its cooler at the bottom and sides, sometimes 15 or 20 degrees different. The level of my ice water is at the level of the wort. So its just that its not cooling fast enough. How can I cool faster and more consistently? I not really looking into a wort chiller at the moment, but I could be convinced.

 

[JeffoC6]

Curious as to here what folks have to say on this as well. I usually stir my wort gently with my therometer so that the sides/bottom mix with the hotter wort in the middle. However, I'm wondering if I'm getting hot side aeration because of this.

 

[unionrdr]

I use my floating thermometer in the BK during the ice bath. I had a "duh!" moment a few brews ago that works faster. Instead of filling the empty space around the BK in the sink with water,then top up with ice,I reversed it. After a 10 minute steep after late malt additions,I set the BK in a sink full of cold water till water gets warm.
Drain water,plug & refill to the top of the sink with ice,then top that off with cold water. Stir well before noting temp on thermometer,which should be removed each time you stir,then replaced. You'll get a more even reading that way. I can get down to 70F in 20 minutes.
But now,I give it a little bit longer (5-10 minutes approx) to get down to 60-62F. So when I pour through the fine mesh strainer into the FV with top off water,it's at about 64F with 3-5" of foam on top. Then stir roughly 5 minutes,take hydrometer sample & pitch.

 

[jester5120]

Your problem is coming from not stirring your wort. If you stir your wort gently with a sanitized spoon whlie it's cooling you'll increase the amount of wort coming in contact with the cool sides of the pot. This will cool it quickly and more evenly. Also to help speed things up even more you can stir the ice water bath on the outside in the opposite direction.

 

[Yooper]

Your problem is coming from not stirring your wort. If you stir your wort gently with a sanitized spoon whlie it's cooling you'll increase the amount of wort coming in contact with the cool sides of the pot. This will cool it quickly and more evenly. Also to help speed things up even more you can stir the ice water bath on the outside in the opposite direction.

Yep- that's exactly what I was going to say! Stir the wort gently to avoid hot/cold spots, with a sanitized spoon, and stir your water bath (with your hand is fine or any spoon). If you feel the water bath, you'll find that it's warm up against the pot and the cooling stops. If you move the water, it will cool more effectively.

 

[unionrdr]

Yup,stirring both inside & out helps keep temps more even & speeds things up a little. I'm interested in seeing how my last two brewing experiments turn out. Lower Ferment temps,measured BK water,15g re-hydrated yeast instead of 7g. They smell &/or taste promissing so far. I just wanted to see for myself what the claimed effects actually are in the average brewing/fermenting situation.
More knowledge is always a good thing.

 

[wailingguitar]

Efficient cooling requires that the heat be carried away by the cooling liquid or you will have the stratified temps. Basically, if you are using an ice bath or an immersion chiller, you will need to stir in some fashion to facilitate this. While, technically an ice bath isn't carrying the heat away, if the liquid in the pot is in motion, it is the same difference; they are in motion relative to each other. When using an immersion cooler, I stir the wort with the chiller itself periodically during the cooling. One could also use a stainless spoon to stir in the case of either the IC or an ice bath. As long as you aren't splashing and making bubbles or froth, you won't even have to worry about hotside aeration... frankly, from what I have seen and learned at the commercial level, it's little more than a boogey-man anyway.

 

[Revvy]

I not really looking into a wort chiller at the moment, but I could be convinced.

Get a wort chiller. It's that simple. You want a quick cool down to get a good cold break, and to be able to get it into a fermenter and yeasted as soon as possible. And s chill bath just doesn't cut it.

A 50 dollar wort chiller and a dollar garden hose adapter to run it in your sink, really IS the best way to get your batches cool quickly.

Doing that raised the quality of my beers 100% not just in terms of a beautiful cold break which resulted in clearer, crisper tasting beer, but also helped shave a considerable amount of time off my brew day.

On a stove top batch, rather than it taking 30 minutes to an hour going through water bath changes and lots of ice (which I also usually had to run out to get which was an added burden on brew day to have enough ice,) it was cool in 15 minutes, AND the hot water coming out from the heat exchange was already being used to rinse and clean things.

With a wort chiller not only was the wort cooled faster but I was already ahead in cleanup.

Honestly I can't see ANY reason why you're resistant to using it, EVEN for stove top batches.

It's just too convenient not to want to make the next step to it.

 

[HawksBrewer]

+1 to Revvy... build a wort chiller.

 

[JeffoC6]

I understand the positives of the wort chiller, and will eventually be getting one. But right now, I can't.

With that said, what I'm reading on here is that while my kettle is in the ice bath, we're OK with stirring it gently, right?

I have always stirred and haven't had an issue, but recently I've also started to swirl the wort around using the pot. I haven't really overly splashed anything, but I've definitely have done a little more than stirring. I've noticed that the 2 brews I've done this with have both had off/cardboard flavors when testing FG (one was the Yoopers House Pale Ale and the other was an Irish Red Ale).

 

[IffyG]

Are you really whipping the wort when you stir it? It should really just be barely moving it around so it moves around the edge of the pot.

On your next batch try covering the pot and gently spinning the pot in the water bath (that was my preferred method before I got a chiller).

 

[Revvy]

Guys, the whole HSA crap is over played, it's another one of Palmer's worst case scenario things that everyone jumped on. You can whip the wort with a powerdrill at this point in the water bath to get it cool if you want to, you're going to be introducing back into the wort which the yeast need.

You don't have to be all namby pamby about it. If you insist on using an ice bath, don't be a wimp about stirring the wort around.

 

[BradleyBrew]

Does anyone see a problem with adding a gallon of ice cold water basically at flameout? I usually do 4.5 to 5 gallon batches but can really only boil 4.5 gallon on my stove top so I end up topping of anyways. I have an Immersion Chiller, just curious.

 

[T8rAleKing]

Noob here: I have done an ice bath with a couple of my batches with semi-success in getting the temp down quickly. My question is: why can't you introduce ice into the wort and chill it that way, similar to pouring the wort into ice in your fermenter but doing it in the brewpot of wort. You would be using purified clean ice same as purified water (spring or whatever). I don't see any risk of contamination either way and it brings the wort temp down quicker than a wort chiller. TIA

 

[JeffoC6]

Guys, the whole HSA crap is over played, it's another one of Palmer's worst case scenario things that everyone jumped on. You can whip the wort with a powerdrill at this point in the water bath to get it cool if you want to, you're going to be introducing back into the wort which the yeast need.

You don't have to be all namby pamby about it. If you insist on using an ice bath, don't be a wimp about stirring the wort around.

Revvy, I'm going to take your word, as you have way more experience than I have.

But, how can I explain the cardboard flavors I'm getting on my 2 brews? I'm OCD with sanitation, etc. etc., so there's no way it can be infected. The only thing I've done differently on the 2 brews that taste like cardboard, is that I've swirled the wort while cooling instead of simply just stirring it with my thermometer. As you said, this obviously isn't the reason for my cardboard flavors...So what is?

 

[petey_c]

Guys, the whole HSA crap is over played, it's another one of Palmer's worst case scenario things that everyone jumped on. You can whip the wort with a powerdrill at this point in the water bath to get it cool if you want to, you're going to be introducing back into the wort which the yeast need.

You don't have to be all namby pamby about it. If you insist on using an ice bath, don't be a wimp about stirring the wort around.

I was wondering the same thing. In a few minutes, when the wort is cooler, you're gonna want to add as much O2 as possible.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, I'm going to take your word, as you have way more experience than I have.

But, how can I explain the cardboard flavors I'm getting on my 2 brews? I'm OCD with sanitation, etc. etc., so there's no way it can be infected. The only thing I've done differently on the 2 brews that taste like cardboard, is that I've swirled the wort while cooling instead of simply just stirring it with my thermometer. As you said, this obviously isn't the reason for my cardboard flavors...So what is?

More than likely you're introducing too much oxygen POST fermentation....You're splashing there...

Like I said, pre yeast pitch, you WANT to be adding oxygen, so whehter you're doing it hot, warm or cool, it's not really going to be "ruining" the wort.

 

[JeffoC6]

More than likely you're introducing too much oxygen POST fermentation....You're splashing there...

Like I said, pre yeast pitch, you WANT to be adding oxygen, so whehter you're doing it hot, warm or cool, it's not really going to be "ruining" the wort.

I pitched the yeast in these brews and put them both in the closet for 2 weeks, then took them out to take my FG readings and that's when I tasted the cardboard finish...How could I have possibility introduced oxygen post fermentation?

 

[Yooper]

Noob here: I have done an ice bath with a couple of my batches with semi-success in getting the temp down quickly. My question is: why can't you introduce ice into the wort and chill it that way, similar to pouring the wort into ice in your fermenter but doing it in the brewpot of wort. You would be using purified clean ice same as purified water (spring or whatever). I don't see any risk of contamination either way and it brings the wort temp down quicker than a wort chiller. TIA

You can certainly do that. But it doesn't cool as quickly as you'd think, as say you have 4 gallons of 200+ degree wort and add 1 gallon of ice. Then you'd have 5 gallons of 140 degree wort (I didn't do that math- some math whiz can help with that- I just gave a guesstimate) that takes even longer to cool since 5 gallons of hot wort takes a lot longer than 4 gallons of hot wort to cool.

Instead, cool the wort to 100 degrees or less, and THEN add the ice/cold water. That should get you in the low 60s quickly.

 

[Revvy]

I was wondering the same thing. In a few minutes, when the wort is cooler you're gonna want to add as much O2 as possible.

It's just another one of those boogeymen that every panicy new brewer focussed on without even considering the logic behind their fear.

Even commercially I don't think folks worry too much about it.

These guys aren't.



If you do a search on here you will find out that HSA is really a bogeyman for the homebrewer, and no one really worries about it....Even the basic brewing guys have downplayed it as another useless worry.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hot-side-aeration-so-im-idiot-71873/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/who-afraid-hsa-76779/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/hot-side-aeration-71806/

 

[Revvy]

I pitched the yeast in these brews and put them both in the closet for 2 weeks, then took them out to take my FG readings and that's when I tasted the cardboard finish...How could I have possibility introduced oxygen post fermentation?

Let me ask you something...Did you bottle or keg these beers? How do you know that what you perceived as being cardboardy at that stage was not simply green beer? I always caution folks to judge a beer until you've seen it through the entire process. A lot of things that folks pick up on initially is often just because the beer is young and green...

Additionally there is a believe that the secondary fermentation process of bottle conditioning can any effects of oxydation if there is any.


But I have just seen way too many premature judgements of beers in primary or secondary that has been "diagnosed" as everything from Oxydation to infection to autolysis, that "magically" disappeared when the beer was no longer green.....

 

[JeffoC6]

Let me ask you something...Did you bottle or keg these beers? How do you know that what you perceived as being cardboardy at that stage was not simply green beer? I always caution folks to judge a beer until you've seen it through the entire process. A lot of things that folks pick up on initially is often just because the beer is young and green...

Additionally there is a believe that the secondary fermentation process of bottle conditioning can any effects of oxydation if there is any.


But I have just seen way too many premature judgements of beers in primary or secondary that has been "diagnosed" as everything from Oxydation to infection to autolysis, that "magically" disappeared when the beer was no longer green.....

Well, I started a thread last night called cardboard/wet paper...It's a little lower on this page. I asked some folks what their thoughts were, and most everyone agreed it was hot side aeration. Since one of these recipes was Yooper's, and there was no mention that it tasted cardboardy during FG readings, I figured that wouldn't be normal. I haven't even bottled it yet, as, like I said, it's only been 2 weeks in the primary. I was checking FG to see if I could dry hop. That's when I noticed the flavor.

 

[T8rAleKing]

You can certainly do that. But it doesn't cool as quickly as you'd think, as say you have 4 gallons of 200+ degree wort and add 1 gallon of ice. Then you'd have 5 gallons of 140 degree wort (I didn't do that math- some math whiz can help with that- I just gave a guesstimate) that takes even longer to cool since 5 gallons of hot wort takes a lot longer than 4 gallons of hot wort to cool.

Instead, cool the wort to 100 degrees or less, and THEN add the ice/cold water. That should get you in the low 60s quickly.

Yooper: Thanks for response. I usually do a 2.5-3 gallon extract batch wort mixture so am adding approx 2.5-3 gallons of water ice after boil-off. WIll this still work?:rockin:

 

[Revvy]

Well, I started a thread last night called cardboard/wet paper...It's a little lower on this page. I asked some folks what their thoughts were, and most everyone agreed it was hot side aeration. Since one of these recipes was Yooper's, and there was no mention that it tasted cardboardy during FG readings, I figured that wouldn't be normal. I haven't even bottled it yet, as, like I said, it's only been 2 weeks in the primary. I was checking FG to see if I could dry hop. That's when I noticed the flavor.

What I noticed in that thread is that most folks said it's UNLIKELY that it is HSA..... And like someone said, it's highly unlikely that it would develop in 2 weeks.

Issues like that, oxydation, tend to be long term storage issues, and don't develop til further down the line.

But the biggest thing is that you're still not even bottled yet on these batches, your beer still has a long journey ahead of it. And I've found that most folks premature "judgements" or worries about beers tend to be false alarms when they are detected while still in a fermenter and not finished.

Come back when the beers have been in bottles for 6-8 weeks and tell us if there's a problem.

Someone suggested the extract was stale, that to me would be a more probable cause then "the dreaded hsa."

 

[JeffoC6]

What I noticed in that thread is that most folks said it's UNLIKELY that it is HSA..... And like someone said, it's highly unlikely that it would develop in 2 weeks.

Issues like that, oxydation, tend to be long term storage issues, and don't develop til further down the line.

But the biggest thing is that you're still not even bottled yet on these batches, your beer still has a long journey ahead of it. And I've found that most folks premature "judgements" or worries about beers tend to be false alarms when they are detected while still in a fermenter and not finished.

Come back when the beers have been in bottles for 6-8 weeks and tell us if there's a problem.

Someone suggested the extract was stale, that to me would be a more probable cause then "the dreaded hsa."

How could've the extract been stale if I used grains?

 

[Revvy]

How could've the extract been stale if I used grains?

Sorry I thought I read extract....But your grain could very well have been stale.

But again, I'm going to side with the premature diagnosis argument. Tell me when the beers been in the bottle for 6-8 weeks if you even have a problem.....

I'll stick with my guns and say I DON'T believe you have HSA....I don't believe it's possible to get HSA, especially at that point in the process..... Even with my Immersion chiller I beat my beer to a healthy froth while it's cooling. And I've yet to have an issue with cardboard.

Even with long term storage.

 

[JeffoC6]

I'll proceed as normal and will let you know in 6 more weeks or so

 

[bhunt70]

Thanks for all the information and quick responses. Revvy, I will probably get a chiller. I didn't take a lot of convincing. I've got a lot to learn but I'm having fun so far.

 

[IffyG]

I'll stick with my guns and say I DON'T believe you have HSA....I don't believe it's possible to get HSA, especially at that point in the process..... Even with my Immersion chiller I beat my beer to a healthy froth while it's cooling. And I've yet to have an issue with cardboard.

While I am not convinced HSA is a huge issue either, I wouldn't advocate beating the hell out of hot wort either. I'm all for minimizing risks (even if some people think they are boogeymen) if it doesn't take much effort. Seems like a no brainer to me to avoid 'beating the beer to a healthy froth' as you say.

If you are getting good beer with your technique, congratulations, but I'd appreciate it if you weren't so obstinate when making your points.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper: Thanks for response. I usually do a 2.5-3 gallon extract batch wort mixture so am adding approx 2.5-3 gallons of water ice after boil-off. WIll this still work?:rockin:

You know, I'm NO math aficionado. But if you start a new thread asking this question (this one went pretty kitty whompus), someone can help you figure out exactly how much ice at what temperature will get you from boiling to 65 degrees, and the volumes.

It never worked out for me, because I either got it too hot or too cold. I found that chilling first, and then topping up with cool water worked well for me.