Cheap compact wort pump

lapoltba · Jan 28, 2015

wbarber69 said:
View attachment 252124

I'm not taking mine apart since the last time I did I broke the ceramic shaft and I intend on brewing this weekend. But here is info from the data sheet

Thanks, but that is the exact same thing I posted above...

wbarber69 · Jan 28, 2015

There is a stainless plate under the impeller that has a grommet around the shaft. So the entire impeller is surrounded by stainless.

k1ngl1ves · Jan 28, 2015

nealm said:
Auggie,
where do we find these $20 24v FDA compliant tan pumps. A search on ebay reveals a lot of them but none state they are made of FDA compliant materials or that they are food grade. Inquiring minds want to know.

With regard to the expensive ($70) Topsflo TS5 series pumps, are they not made of ABS. They are certainly black so is some black ABS food safe or is topsflo BSing us.

Nealm

I believe this is it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261680510587?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

$22 + free shipping. Cheapest I could find. Doesn't say "food grade", but whatever...

augiedoggy · Jan 28, 2015

lapoltba said:
How is the magnet sealed off from the wet side of things? I have yet to find pictures of this pump with the impeller/magnet removed. Is there a seal on the pump shaft behind the impeller?

I have yet to see one centrifugal style pump like this where the liquid isnt used for lubrication.... there is a ceramic shaft with a magnet mounted on it... from the posted diagriam it looks pretty clear than this is just a stainless lined TS5 which in fact does let the water enter the magnet area.

lapoltba · Jan 28, 2015

augiedoggy said:
I have yet to see one centrifugal style pump like this where the liquid isnt used for lubrication.... there is a ceramic shaft with a magnet mounted on it... from the posted diagriam it looks pretty clear than this is just a stainless lined TS5 which in fact does let the water enter the magnet area.

That experience too... I find it hard to believe that they put an extra rotational seal behind the impeller complicating the assembly. Plus the bearing lubrication you mentioned.

augiedoggy · Jan 28, 2015

k1ngl1ves said:
I believe this is it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261680510587?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

$22 + free shipping. Cheapest I could find. Doesn't say "food grade", but whatever...

augiedoggy · Jan 28, 2015

Notice that both the tan pumps made by this company are food grade while the black ones are not?
http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/product.asp?cid=51&sortpath=0,51,

BTW thats who makes the $15 -$25 topsflo knock offs that are made of abs and technically are not foodgrade...(model P4511 is this pump here being sold incorrectly as foodgrade, notice the swirl mark molded into the top which is the manufactuers logo..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-DC-Ho...787?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9c7c1553

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Quiet...248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4632a50cd8

now here is the manufactures spec sheet stating the uses which do NOT include food.
http://www.dgshenpeng.com/en_asp/productshow.asp?id=808

and finally the manufactuers page on the tan pumps I use (made by topsflo as well) notice the are in fact listed as food grade.

http://topsflo.gmc.globalmarket.com...r-sale-small-electric-water-pump-3660376.html
http://www.buyneto.com/?ua=ncG1vJlo...jfGSwmaSav3B9kmxpanBllH56gpJvaGlwZGp7qcDMpQ==

Notice again the trend that this manufacturer makes thier food grade pumps Tan as well? (Some of the black ones like the TS5 state they are made of all foodgrade materials and that they are for solar water heaters but do not list the pump as foodgrade like the tan ones.)

http://topsflo.gmc.globalmarket.com/

what else I find funny is the TD4 stainless pump doesnt appear on topflos website?

in conclusion all the small tan colored dc pumps I have found to date are made for food grade use regardless of which manufacturer.

augiedoggy · Jan 28, 2015

JustLooking said:
More accurately, nobody cares as much as he does.

At this point it's become a bizarre personal crusade that's not worth responding to.

You already responded with your false assumptions that the magnets themselves were made of stainless steel earlier in the thread..
Which would make them either non magnetic or rust prone depending on which grade of stainless was used..
and this is exactly why I'm posting all of this...

Honestly I'm kinda tired of seeing the same false assumptions made here. People ask the same unanswered questions over and over I wasted a lot of time here but I did prove without a doubt in my mind anyway that the tan pumps that this thread was created about are infact perfectly safe for food use whereas its a mixed bag with the black ones depending on which pump you buy and there are a lot non foodgrade utility pumps being passed off to homebrewers who come here and get vague answers as to whats safe and what isn't. I'm not the only one who was and is concerned by this the thread being this long is proof of that.
One member here responded, stating he can only find one example of the tan pumps on ebay and none for less than $22 so I posted a dozen of so more to show that they are in fact there.
I would find it a bit odd that soo many people here worry about brass and aluminum and the possible heavy metals and toxins that could be leeching into the beer but yet those same people could seem to care less about the materials their pumps are made from?

Falcon3 · Jan 28, 2015

I used to be a "meh, something will kill me eventually" guy, and I used the black ABS pump. Since then, I've realized that even a slim chance that a $22 pump could save me some headache down the road, or reduce my risk of cancer from ingesting 100's of gallons of beer laced with leached chemicals, it's worth it to me. Now, a Chugger or March isn't worth it at this point. I dont understand how a sub $20 black pump can build in dry-run protection, voltage regulation, and high-temp shutoffs, yet a $140-$200 pump can't- I don't want to chance walking out of my garage to get a beer, and having my Chugger lose prime and burn itself out.

Moral of the rant: Augie is one of the only brewers on this forum that is doing tests and research on these cheaper pumps, and backing his findings with evidence- keep it up Bro- I'm with you all the way

augiedoggy · Jan 28, 2015

Here is a pic I just took of one of the pumps I dropped and snapped (parts pump now) ... anyway you can clearly see the stainless shield behind the impeller and the coated magnet as well as the ceramic shaft...
When I took apart my $30 abs topsflo knockoff (which does not have abs stamped on it like I originally thought btw but the manufactuer does state that's what's used) I found the magnet was bare and exposed to the wort... hopefully someone with the $60-70 real topsflo can inspect the internals and let us know if the magnets are in fact coated/ food grade since it will give a real indication as to whether effort was put into manufacturing the for food grade use...

Slow_Day · Jan 29, 2015

Augie,

As far as you know, are all of these tan pumps you linked to 24V compatable?

Some sellers state 12V. Some 12V-24V. Some give you the option to specify 12V or 24V. Are all of these actually the same?

Thanks for caring to get the facts straight. It is finally coming together.

JustLooking · Jan 29, 2015

Slow_Day said:
Thanks for caring to get the facts straight.

The fact is that there are very few facts when it comes to these pumps. Some people may be perfectly happy to believe information coming from sources in China. The fact is that there is no accountability for this information and China's track record is not great. There's no FDA approval. No testing to see if anything leaches out of these pumps under brewing conditions. This is true of both the tan and black pumps. How do you know there isn't some contaminant in the tan plastic? Because they said so? No US agency has tested either of them. US Solar has stated that their black ABS body pumps are food grade. Although the housings are not identical, from appearance, it looks like the magnets and body on their pumps are the same materials as the black clones. You have the choice to believe a large US distributor is doing quality control on their imported products or that information coming from China is accurate, but don't be fooled by someones claims that they know something when none of it is based on accurate testing done in the US. Are the magnets coated? Do the magnets need to be coated to prevent contamination? I don't know. US Solar says that they're food grade and there's nothing based on accountable facts to make me believe otherwise.

augiedoggy · Jan 29, 2015

Slow_Day said:
Augie,

As far as you know, are all of these tan pumps you linked to 24V compatable?

Some sellers state 12V. Some 12V-24V. Some give you the option to specify 12V or 24V. Are all of these actually the same?

Thanks for caring to get the facts straight. It is finally coming together.

the motor housing is actually slightly different between the 12 and the 24 volt models. If you tried to run the 12 Volt model on 24 volts it would overheat and burn up quicklythey are different most noticeably the 24 volt models do not have the separate plastic piece at the bottom of the motor. It's all one molded piece. Otherwise they are the same and use the same components

augiedoggy · Jan 29, 2015

JustLooking said:
The fact is that there are very few facts when it comes to these pumps. Some people may be perfectly happy to believe information coming from sources in China. The fact is that there is no accountability for this information and China's track record is not great. There's no FDA approval. No testing to see if anything leaches out of these pumps under brewing conditions. This is true of both the tan and black pumps. How do you know there isn't some contaminant in the tan plastic? Because they said so? No US agency has tested either of them. US Solar has stated that their black ABS body pumps are food grade. Although the housings are not identical, from appearance, it looks like the magnets and body on their pumps are the same materials as the black clones. You have the choice to believe a large US distributor is doing quality control on their imported products or that information coming from China is accurate, but don't be fooled by someones claims that they know something when none of it is based on accurate testing done in the US. Are the magnets coated? Do the magnets need to be coated to prevent contamination? I don't know. US Solar says that they're food grade and there's nothing based on accountable facts to make me believe otherwise.

Well Given the fact that USsolar is a distributor for topsflo which is the manufacturer of the tan pumps I use...

and you may have missed it but the little black clones of the topflo pumps are made of ABS plastic which is different and the manufacturer states that the pump can likely be used without any problems with food products but it's technically not a food grade pump. one of the reasons they stayed for this is the fact that the magnet is not coated. also only certain grades of ABS plastic are stable at temperatures above a hundred and seventy.
It almost seems like you're trying to justify to yourself that's a little $20 clones are just as safe as the other pumps despite all the indications that this is not the case. again the black ones were designed to be hot water tank heater pumps and the tan ones are designed for food grade use if you look at all the major distributors and sellers with an actual explanation.

Slow_Day · Jan 29, 2015

Thanks Augie. I guess I will pay a few more dollars and choose one that states 24v explicitely.

Thanks also to JL. I'm glad someone is challenging Augie, and pushing him to provide these great links and opinions. I agree that just stating that something is true, doesn't make it true. We all have to make up our minds based on the evidence.

augiedoggy · Jan 29, 2015

Slow_Day said:
Thanks Augie. I guess I will pay a few more dollars and choose one that states 24v explicitely.

Thanks also to JL. I'm glad someone is challenging Augie, and pushing him to provide these great links and opinions. I agree that just stating that something is true, doesn't make it true. We all have to make up our minds based on the evidence.

Very true... I dont expect people to just take what I've said as gospel... I was wrong about the stainless pump being stainless lined just yesterday because I made an educated assumption that apparently was wrong..... I am trying to get as much real info into this thread on these so people can make more informed decisions, that's all... and avoid or disprove the comments based on stereotyping opinions with no factual basis...

It doesnt help when people make up BS like claiming to have the very first prototype of the stainless pump and implying that they had a hand in it design... especially when they dont even know how it functions..

The black topsflo ones could be perfectly fine for food use.. I would just like to know why the strange marketing and why they avoid mentioning foodgrade in most of their literature on these...We know they were designed for solar hot water use and not food use but the marketing changed along the way.. Thats what concerns me a bit.
Greatbrew was the first to market these topsflo brand ones and they themselves state they had to go to the manufactuer and have them change the magnets after someone brought it to their attention that they were not foodgrade..(I believe they even exchanged the early ones they sold). Did topsflo change the design on all thier pumps of this style or just the ones sold to greatbrew?
It could be something as silly and simple as the fact that they couldnt get foodgrade certification because the magnets come in contact with the food even though theres no known danger, or perhaps they are foodsafe only up to a certain temp like the cheaper abs clones from shenpeng electronics which also claim themselves that its not foodgrade only because of the magnet but they know of no danger from it... in any case many of the sellers selling the cheap ones have already stated that they just assumed they were foodsafe for beer because they saw other sellers claiming the same thing.... Another member wrote a nice review praising this shepeng pumps and then had to post back to not use them because he found they werent safe...

And I find it hypocritical for someone to say everything coming out of china is questionable and these are all just as likely to be unsafe and we shouldn't trust the manufacturers documentation, but yet in the same paragraph he goes on to say since the American middleman (us solar) who buys the pumps from the Chinese manufacturer says they are food grade he believes they are? Am I the only one who sees irony in this? especially when US solar does not sell these as thier own but rather under the chinese namebrand as far as I can tell therefore they dont really assume any responsibility if they are wrong...

This is what I'm trying to help avoid,

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/review-3-3-gpm-pump-only-26-99-amazon-494876/

wbarber69 · Jan 29, 2015

Hmmm... It's kind of weird how the td5 didn't exist in its current state until I contacted the seller personally to ask why they didn't carry a foodsafe 12v pump possibly with speed control that was stronger than the 3gpm model they currently sold. It's even weirder how the guy then emailed back and forth with me a few times. Found out from the "engineers" that they had a pump that matched what I was looking for and another model with a stainless head that should match up to the screw holes. It was even weirder when I agreed to pay full price for the first one they sent him for testing. And it's even weirder that after I emailed him back video of it in use they posted it up on the product page and immediately started selling it. But hey the only proof I have is all the email correspondence back and forth and a short thread post somewhere detailing what I was doing. You just can't fathom how anyone would use any pump other than your favorite simply because it comes in another color.

augiedoggy · Jan 29, 2015

wbarber69 said:
Hmmm... It's kind of weird how the td5 didn't exist in its current state until I contacted the seller personally to ask why they didn't carry a foodsafe 12v pump possibly with speed control that was stronger than the 3gpm model they currently sold. It's even weirder how the guy then emailed back and forth with me a few times. Found out from the "engineers" that they had a pump that matched what I was looking for and another model with a stainless head that should match up to the screw holes. It was even weirder when I agreed to pay full price for the first one they sent him for testing. And it's even weirder that after I emailed him back video of it in use they posted it up on the product page and immediately started selling it. But hey the only proof I have is all the email correspondence back and forth and a short thread post somewhere detailing what I was doing. You just can't fathom how anyone would use any pump other than your favorite simply because it comes in another color.

I just didnt buy the prototype story.. You could have bought one of the first ones but it normally takes more than one request for something like this to be made... Especially since the "other "manufacturer (shenpeng) already had their version on the market for a long time. ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-S...077?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e9273fad
)
I could understand why someone would use different pumps if they want something with more flow.... but $70 for a 3gpm pump (or $140 for 5gpm) vs a 2.65gpm foodgrade pump (which there is less doubt if any is food grade) Just doesnt seem like a great buy. yes they have all that circuitry for run dry protection and running of solar power but is that needed here? they still run dry for a minute before shutting off and unless theres no one in the room you would hear it long before then...
I already gave my 2 cents on spending $135 for a little TD5 solar pump vs a march or chugger for the same money.

I am curious if that is a march knockoff head on the stainless one you have... sure looks like this one only stainless.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/replacement.../361136528390?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item54156a1c06

augiedoggy · Jan 29, 2015

hears another one that looks like the same bolt pattern...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOLAR-WATER...386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f45d30e9a

wbarber69 · Jan 30, 2015

Dude you really need to get a more productive hobby. Or maybe up your meds a bit...

JustLooking · Jan 30, 2015

augiedoggy said:
And I find it hypocritical for someone to say everything coming out of china is questionable and these are all just as likely to be unsafe and we shouldn't trust the manufacturers documentation, but yet in the same paragraph he goes on to say since the American middleman (us solar) who buys the pumps from the Chinese manufacturer says they are food grade he believes they are?

I can see where you might take it as hypocritical. What I tried to say was I trust (actually hope would be a better word) that US Solar or Topsflo are big enough that they're doing quality control on their imported products to check that they are being made to their specs. The links you've given for the eBay tan pumps appear to be small distributors or individuals that I doubt do any inspection before reselling the pumps.

JustLooking said:
You have the choice to believe a large US distributor is doing quality control on their imported products or that information coming from China is accurate, but don't be fooled by someones claims that they know something when none of it is based on accurate testing done in the US [...] US Solar says that they're food grade and there's nothing based on accountable facts to make me believe otherwise.

KPSquared · Jan 30, 2015

This thread is funny. A Coke bottle is "food grade"... Do you know how much crap leeches from that plastic? Most of us are going to die of cancer anyways... Just buy what you can afford and stop worrying about it. They put TSP in Cheerios... We've got bigger things to worry about.

augiedoggy · Jan 30, 2015

JustLooking said:
I can see where you might take it as hypocritical. What I tried to say was I trust (actually hope would be a better word) that US Solar or Topsflo are big enough that they're doing quality control on their imported products to check that they are being made to their specs. The links you've given for the eBay tan pumps appear to be small distributors or individuals that I doubt do any inspection before reselling the pumps.

Fair enough...
I have only found evidence that the tan pumps I linked are all made by topsflo and since they dont make or market a non food grade version of this style pump the cheaper resellers appear to be just a cheaper way to get the same pump with a longer wait...
I'm open to entertaining otherwise if someone has some data to back it up or even indicate it might have some basis..
Like I mentioned before, the first pump I bought and paid more for had the commercial labeling on it and I have bought 5 of these all from different sellers, so far when taking them apart they are all identical with completely interchangeable parts (12v and 24v do have different enclosures though)
it seems these are made and sold in bulk for different OEM applications (water fountains or refrigerator water systems as example and this may be why some come with runbber feet or not and different or lack of labeling..

Konadog · Jan 30, 2015

augiedoggy said:
Here is a pic I just took of one of the pumps I dropped and snapped (parts pump now) ... anyway you can clearly see the stainless shield behind the impeller and the coated magnet as well as the ceramic shaft...
When I took apart my $30 abs topsflo knockoff (which does not have abs stamped on it like I originally thought btw but the manufactuer does state that's what's used) I found the magnet was bare and exposed to the wort... hopefully someone with the $60-70 real topsflo can inspect the internals and let us know if the magnets are in fact coated/ food grade since it will give a real indication as to whether effort was put into manufacturing the for food grade use...

First off, thanks for all the research you and other have put into these pumps. Are you saying that "most" of the tan pumps have a coated magnet, and none of the black pumps are coated? I was looking at a few of the links you provided (this one in particular):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-12V-2...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4869c1fd4c

And I don't see it stated anywhere.

augiedoggy · Jan 30, 2015

Konadog said:
First off, thanks for all the research you and other have put into these pumps. Are you saying that "most" of the tan pumps have a coated magnet, and none of the black pumps are coated? I was looking at a few of the links you provided (this one in particular):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-12V-2...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4869c1fd4c

And I don't see it stated anywhere.

YES
I am 100% sure that pump has a coated magnet. (because I bought one of the same pumps from the same seller)
I'm saying all of THESE STYLE TAN 24v and 12v pumps do in fact have coated magnets. as for the other style tan pumps, I have not bought any but they all advertise as being food grade with coated magnets and are mainly marketed for food grade use by all the major suppliers unlike the black topsflo model pumps...

The black topsflo hot water pumps are advertised as being molded of food grade plastic but thats were the similarity ends...Theres no mention of whether the magnets that are exposed to the food liquid except to say they are "ceramic ferrite" what that means besides stating it has both an iron and ceramic based composition I dont know? is the ferrite magnet ceramic coated or blended with the ferrite? I have enough iron in my beer... I dont need more, it lends a nasty off flavor from what I've read.

Konadog · Jan 30, 2015

augiedoggy said:
YES
I am 100% sure that pump has a coated magnet. (because I bought one of the same pumps from the same seller)

Thanks! I've been looking for a pump to whirlpool with (5 gal batches) and I think the 24v should work just fine.

JustLooking · Jan 30, 2015

augiedoggy said:
Theres no mention of whether the magnets that are exposed to the food liquid except to say they are "ceramic ferrite" what that means besides stating it has both an iron and ceramic based composition I dont know? is the ferrite magnet ceramic coated or blended with the ferrite?

I don't know either, but would speculate that the iron is not exposed. As I've mentioned earlier, many times I've left the magnet damp for weeks on end and never seen any sign of rust. From my experience, it doesn't take long for it to develop on wet unprotected iron. This is with both the black Topsflo and the clone. Not conclusive evidence, but something to consider.

augiedoggy · Jan 30, 2015

JustLooking said:
I don't know either, but would speculate that the iron is not exposed. As I've mentioned earlier, many times I've left the magnet damp for weeks on end and never seen any sign of rust. From my experience, it doesn't take long for it to develop on wet unprotected iron. This is with both the black Topsflo and the clone. Not conclusive evidence, but something to consider.

After doing some reading it appears that the ferrite is actually a ceramic based compund infused with iron oxide and other "metallic elements"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)
I too noticed my magnet didnt rust but still one has to wonder if this stuff and leech into the liquid especially when you have compressed liquid flowing against its surface... if it didnt matter why did shenpeng state that technically in order to be a food grade pump the magnet needed to be coated? and why bother coating the magnets on pumps designed for food use if it really doesnt matter?

augiedoggy · Jan 30, 2015

looks like this question came up before ..and a chuggerpumps rep answered it with this statement,

"All that is up for debate among brewers...I strongly believe that any food processed fluids( especially when they are heated) should be in contact with FDA food grade materials only. Ceramic Ferrite magnets are not FDA. These all come form China. All the Chugger and March magnets are encapsulated in Stainless just for this purpose. How much did you pay for this pump with Shipping ?"

and

"There is no such thing as a food safe magnet! We are dealing with Ferrite metals here..definitely not food safe. No HI- Jack intending here ..I just cant stand it when false statements are made about food safe materials . On all other brands of brew pumps the magnets are encased in either SS or Polysulfone FDA grade plastic ....this is for a reason! Dont be mislead

My 2 cents ..maybe we both should be deleted? Joe ...call me would love to discuss further
MIKE 800-810-1053"
and yet another quote from him

"High temp food grade coating?? We have been selling FDA grade pumps for 20 years...never heard of it? Please forward what this is ..we could spray all of aour cast iron pumps with it and make them food grade?

The point here is it does not exist!"

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/looking-pump-input-317600/index13.html

it appears that 3 years ago SOME of the topflo pumps being sold had started being modified and had the magnets coated with a visable coating some of the older pumps had a less robust clear silicone based coating... according to what I'm still reading the stainless threaded ones had the better coating but not the brass of plastic...

according to chugger pumps testing the topsflo only had 2gpm flow with little head pressure... thats actually the same as I measure with my tan 24v pump with my rotometer pumping from the bottom of my kettle thru my rims and up into the top of another...

Here is another quote from a big reseller "beerpumpsect" (GreatbrewEH) from 3 years ago
"I can tell you the product is silicone which we all use in the tubing (FOOD GRADE) including us. I cannot tell you the specific product as we have worked hard to modify this pump for this purpose and continue to do so like any other decent company. The newest coating is going to be more apparent in attempt to end the doubt. I am certain the certification will meet all expectations.

Please be assured these are not the same pumps others refer to from ebay, they are the same basic motor and ryton head but that's it, they were designed for another purpose all together.

Finally one day in the future, (please do not email when) we are working on an all stainless steel head so once again we can totally put this to bed. There are many brewing days ahead so don't wait.

PS. I have loved mine and continue to happily use them but those who wish to pay more for other brands because they feel it is a better choice for themselves, I completely support you in that decision and wish you happy brewing with whatever equipment gets you to the finish line.

GBE"

so it looks like the the all stainless head TD4 has been at least 3 years in the making and the first shipment went out on 06-12-2012, (sorry wbarber69 but they didnt design it for you) and unless you have a "noticable coating" on the magnet you have one of the questionable pumps not modified for berr pump use...

JustLooking · Jan 30, 2015

augiedoggy said:
looks like this question came up before ..and a chuggerpumps rep answered it with this statement,

And here he replies that there's no such thing as a food grade coating like the tan pump have.

chuggerpumps said:
High temp food grade coating?? We have been selling FDA grade pumps for 20 years...never heard of it? Please forward what this is ..we could spray all of our cast iron pumps with it and make them food grade?

The point here is it does not exist!

chuggerpumps said:
[...] in the pump world there are no Food Grade Magnets pumping fluids at 212F. 3600 rpm. They just don't exist..As always I would love to discuss further anytime
Mike 800-810-1053

Looks like we have to buy Chugger's.

Cheap compact wort pump

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