Chcicago / Lake Michigan Water Questions

[bobbytuck]

I've downloaded the three main water spreadsheets -- Bru'n, Palmer's, and EZ. I've gotten the water analysis for my suburban water (Glen Ellyn, IL via the Chicago/Jardine Pumping station for Lake Michigan) and see that my water is as follows:

From EZ:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 35.4
Mg: 12.3
Na: 7.8
Cl: 14.7
SO4: 26
CaCO3: 103

From Brun'N:
Total Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 139
Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) 104
Permanent Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 35
RA Effective Hardness, (ppm as CaCO3) 114
Temporary Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 104
Residual Alkalinity (RA), (ppm as CaCO3) 71

------

I've yet to do a ward water analysis from my potable hose, but I figure these numbers are a good starting point (via a recent 2010 chemical analysis from the Chicago water district.)

So my questions:

a) I've got a eHERMS system with a 15 gallon HLT. The heating element is at the 5 gallon mark, so I really only have 9-10 gallons to work with at any given time. I usually take my mash water from the HLT (4-6 gallons or so, depending on grist) and then add another 6 gallons or so *back* to the HLT to bring it up to a full 15 gallons so the HERMS coil is fully submerged and my temp between the HLT and MLT deviates by only 3 degrees or so. Then I start circulating (this is before adding any grain) to equalize everything to dough-in temp. Given that I add additional water to my HLT, when's the best time to add the water additions (if I need to based on the spreadsheet)? Should I add them directly to the 6 gallons in the mash (once I dough-in)? Or add them to the HLT (before transferring the mash water)? Does this make sense?

b) If my mash pH turns out to be okay for any given style (w/o salts) -- can I add the gypsum and calcium choloride to the boil to adjust the flavor?

c) I'm still reading through the water primer here and figuring all this stuff out (background is literature not chemistry -- so all this is freaky new to me, and I'm a little slow to wrap my head around this stuff) how does my Chicago water look? I see it's high in RA -- and from reading I understand that hardness (for the most part) is good, whereas alkalinity is not. I've had good success with dark beers (absolutely no adjustments) but my IPAs have been abysmal. No hop character whatsoever -- and barely any malt character. I added 6g of gyspum (as a test -- before any spreadsheets) to the boil for my last black IPA, and the hops were bonkers raw -- but the malt was still backgrounded. I assume this means I need to balance out the crazy hop bite with the calcium chloride. I can see how to tweak this via the spreadsheets -- but I'm confused about when to add to mash versus boil.

d) I have no good way to get RO water (no under the sink RO generator, for example) so is there hope for going with the Chicago water with additions as indicated via the spreadsheets? Or is a RO generator I essentially have to invest in? As I say, because of my HERMS setup, it's a little hard to measure out total water given the fact that I deplete the HLT to the heating element and then have to fill it back up via the hose.

Thanks for any assistance, and I'll keep reading.

 

[ajdelange]

Based on these numbers

From EZ:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 35.4
Mg: 12.3
Na: 7.8
Cl: 14.7
SO4: 26
CaCO3: 103

These numbers

From Brun'N:
Total Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 139
Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) 104
Permanent Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 35
RA Effective Hardness, (ppm as CaCO3) 114
Temporary Hardness, as CaCO3, (ppm) 104
Residual Alkalinity (RA), (ppm as CaCO3) 71

are not unreasonable.

I've yet to do a ward water analysis from my potable hose, but I figure these numbers are a good starting point (via a recent 2010 chemical analysis from the Chicago water district.)

These doubtless represent averages but unless your water district is subject to large changes in source water (such as a big influx of snow melt in the spring or drawing from multiple sources) they should be close enough for brewing plans.

a) I've got a eHERMS system with a 15 gallon HLT. The heating element is at the 5 gallon mark, so I really only have 9-10 gallons to work with at any given time. I usually take my mash water from the HLT (4-6 gallons or so, depending on grist) and then add another 6 gallons or so *back* to the HLT to bring it up to a full 15 gallons so the HERMS coil is fully submerged and my temp between the HLT and MLT deviates by only 3 degrees or so. Then I start circulating (this is before adding any grain) to equalize everything to dough-in temp. Given that I add additional water to my HLT, when's the best time to add the water additions (if I need to based on the spreadsheet)? Should I add them directly to the 6 gallons in the mash (once I dough-in)? Or add them to the HLT (before transferring the mash water)? Does this make sense?

I am in a similar situation (except that the coil is a steam coil) so what I do may work for you too.

1. Measure the depth of the water in the HLT when it is full.
2. Calculate the salt additions for the full volume of water.
3. Weigh out all the salts - do this twice.
4. Dissolve each set of salts in a volume of water equal to the depth of the full HLT, For example, if the HLT is 20" tall, dissolve the salts in 20 cc of water. Or, if you prefer, work in cm. Dissolve the salts in 51 cc of water for a 20*2.54 =50.8 cm water depth. Or use 2 cc of water per inch of depth or whatever scaling gives you a volume of water you are comfortable with*.
5. Dump one of the solutions into the HLT.
6. Any time you top up the HLT add from the second solution according to how much water you added to it. For example, if you have dissolved the salts in 20 cc of water (corresponding to full HLT water depth of 20") and replenish 8" of water, add 8 cc of the solution.

*This all works fine with all salts except calcium carbonate (and you won't be adding any of that) and gypsum. Two grams of gypsum (which is a modest addition in the eyes of many ale brewers) requires a liter of water to dissolve.) It definitely will not dissolve in 20 cc of water or even 50. What you can do here is suspend the gypsum i.e. cap the container, shake it vigorously (at which point it will be uniformly milky with nothing lying on the bottom) and quickly measure out as many cc as you need for a particular water top-off.

b) If my mash pH turns out to be okay for any given style (w/o salts) -- can I add the gypsum and calcium choloride to the boil to adjust the flavor?

Yes, but why not add them in the mash? With your alkalinity being what it is you will benefit from the pH lowering power of the calcium in both these salts.

c) I'm still reading through the water primer here and figuring all this stuff out (background is literature not chemistry -- so all this is freaky new to me, and I'm a little slow to wrap my head around this stuff) how does my Chicago water look? I see it's high in RA -- and from reading I understand that hardness (for the most part) is good, whereas alkalinity is not.

Alkalinity is nearly always bad and harness perhaps less so uniformly good. Hardness is beneficial in the sense that it lowers pH and is beneficial to yeast health but soft water is an important part of many styles of beer.

I've had good success with dark beers (absolutely no adjustments) ...

This is because the acid in the dark malts are neutralizing the alkalinity in your water resulting in a suitable mash pH....

...but my IPAs have been abysmal. No hop character whatsoever -- and barely any malt character.

...and this is because there is no acid. Mash pH is too high. Characterless or dull beer is a frequEnt description given to beers brewed at high pH.

I added 6g of gyspum (as a test -- before any spreadsheets) to the boil for my last black IPA, and the hops were bonkers raw

Not surprising given all that sulfate

-- but the malt was still backgrounded. I assume this means I need to balance out the crazy hop bite with the calcium chloride. I can see how to tweak this via the spreadsheets -- but I'm confused about when to add to mash versus boil.

Fixing the mash pH will probably take care of this problem. My perepetual advice here is to skip the gypsum at first and go with about 5 grams CaCl2 per 5 gallons. Then brew the same beer again but with some gypsum added this time. And then again with still more gypsum. Keep brewing the beer and tweaking the gypsum until you hit the sweet spot.

d) I have no good way to get RO water (no under the sink RO generator, for example) so is there hope for going with the Chicago water with additions as indicated via the spreadsheets? Or is a RO generator I essentially have to invest in? As I say, because of my HERMS setup, it's a little hard to measure out total water given the fact that I deplete the HLT to the heating element and then have to fill it back up via the hose.

You already know that you can brew dark beers with this water but you will have some problems with light, delicate beers. It's certainly easy to put things into water but the only practical way to take them out is dilution with low ion (RO water0. There is always a way to get RO water. It is sold in many healthfood shops and supermarkets.

 

[Thefirebuilds]

may I ask who you used for the analysis? I want to send out a sample from our municipal (Racine, about 40m north of you) and a well sample from around the Dells.

 

[bobbytuck]

I downloaded my water numbers directly from the Chicago water district:

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/e...ndreports/comprehensive_chemicalanalysis.html

I tried calling my village, but they were suspicious about why I wanted the water analysis and said everything they had was on the village website. I explained that the website info did not contain the mineral content of the water -- only whatever contaminants they decided to list for EPA purposes. And when I explained the I needed the water info for brewing, she alerted me to the fact that distilling was illegal. I said I wasn't distilling, I was brewing, but she wouldn't give me any additional info. Very weird exchange! Anyway, I plan to try again to get a local water analysis for my town's Chicago/Lake Michigan distribution water, but I'll wait a week or so and hope I get a different person.

Thanks, ajdelange! And thanks for the tips for dealing with adding water and salts to the HLT.

 

[bobbytuck]

BTW -- so if I'm understanding this correctly, ajdelange, you're saying add the salts to the HLT -- but not to the mash? So all my salts are going into the HLT at one point or another -- but *not* into the mash or the boil kettle? (In other words -- even though the HLT water is being used for mashing and sparging, I'm only *adding* salts to the HLT?)

If that's the case, what are the numbers I should be using in the spreadsheets if, say, I mash with 5 gallons and sparge with another 4 to get, say, 7.75 in my boil kettle pre-boil (with a little left in my MLT)?

I'm fly sparging for 45 mins, if that makes a difference.

re: RO water

Given what you described above about creating two different solutions for the HLT -- how do you measure out RO water in this case? Do you split the RO water over two different additions, too?

Finally, another question: is there ever a time to worry about *boil* pH? I assume the pH is changing here, too, based on the length of the boil and the evaporating water -- but so long as the mash pH falls into line, then the bk pH will, too?

 

[ajdelange]

BTW -- so if I'm understanding this correctly, ajdelange, you're saying add the salts to the HLT -- but not to the mash? So all my salts are going into the HLT at one point or another -- but *not* into the mash or the boil kettle? (In other words -- even though the HLT water is being used for mashing and sparging, I'm only *adding* salts to the HLT?)

This is the easiest way to manage things and works very well unless you want/need to acidify sparge water but you shouldn't have to do this at the level of alkalinity of your water. It is best to check, though i.e. check runoff pH and gravity to be sure pH stays below 6 until the gravity is down to the 4-5 °P level. If you find you need to add acid, just add it to the HLT. The amount of acid you would add to get pH to say 5.5 won't pull your kettle pH down noticeably so it can still be used for makeup water for example. If you want to add kettle salts (i.e. you have a kettle pH of say 5.3 and want to lower it or want to add anything else to the kettle) just add them to the kettle.

If that's the case, what are the numbers I should be using in the spreadsheets if, say, I mash with 5 gallons and sparge with another 4 to get, say, 7.75 in my boil kettle pre-boil (with a little left in my MLT)?

Put in the volume of water for the full HLT for mash and set sparge volume to 0. Then divide the numbers for the minerals by the number of inches in the HLT. That is the amount of mineral you add for each inch of water in the HLT.

Given what you described above about creating two different solutions for the HLT -- how do you measure out RO water in this case? Do you split the RO water over two different additions, too?

If using pure RO then add one inche's worth of mineral for each inch of RO water. If you are blending 2 parts, for example, RO with 3 parts of tap water than add 2" of RO water and 3" of tap water and add enough mineral for 5".

Finally, another question: is there ever a time to worry about *boil* pH? I assume the pH is changing here, too, based on the length of the boil and the evaporating water -- but so long as the mash pH falls into line, then the bk pH will, too?

There is some effect from chemical changes in the boil (pH tends to drop some) and there is some effect from concentration due to evaporation but the wort seems to buffer i.e. hold a particular pH. Some brewers add salts and/or acids to the kettle to get this pH just where they want it.

 

[bobbytuck]

Again -- many thanks. Your answers are incredibly helpful.

One thing I'm still wondering about as I try to wrap my head around the ideas of "Residual Alkalinity" and "Hardness" -- given my numbers above, I'm assuming that my "low fuss" beers -- beers that my untreated water with moderate alkalinity would make reasonably well -- would be in the amber/brown/black category -- probably leaning more toward the brown/black? (And this would be because the acidity of the dark malts would work to neutralize the higher alkalinity in my water?)

In terms of hardness versus softness, though -- a question: My difficulty would come, I'm guessing if I opt to brew a pilsner or hefeweizen -- or any "light" (in color) beer. My hard water would make these kinds of beers especially harsh -- and not particularly within the style guidelines -- without the use of RO or distilled water to cut my numbers?

I'm asking because I'm trying to attempt a small-ish group -- maybe 2 or 3 -- beers to target for the summer and fall. Making, essentially, the same beers over and over again -- but adjusting the treatment numbers according to the spreadsheets. My pH meter is on its way -- as is 2# of acidulated malt -- so, in my case, I'm assuming I'll be using the 2% or so sauermalz per brew when I veer away from the brown/black and into the pale ale/ipa territory to bring down the pH and acidify my mash.

If I acidify my mash too much -- if even after the sauermalz sits and gets adjusted -- is it possible to add chalk to the mash on the fly to bring up the pH? Or is it better to aim low with the sauermalz and not overshoot in the first place?

 

[ajdelange]

One thing I'm still wondering about as I try to wrap my head around the ideas of "Residual Alkalinity" and "Hardness" -- given my numbers above, I'm assuming that my "low fuss" beers -- beers that my untreated water with moderate alkalinity would make reasonably well -- would be in the amber/brown/black category -- probably leaning more toward the brown/black? (And this would be because the acidity of the dark malts would work to neutralize the higher alkalinity in my water?)

Yes.

In terms of hardness versus softness, though -- a question: My difficulty would come, I'm guessing if I opt to brew a pilsner or hefeweizen -- or any "light" (in color) beer. My hard water would make these kinds of beers especially harsh -- and not particularly within the style guidelines -- without the use of RO or distilled water to cut my numbers?

The potential problems with light beers are two:

1. There is no acid to offset the alkalinity so mash pH is too high resulting, usually, in a dull, flat (in flavor) beer.
2. Many of these beers (but not all) are very delicate and much better if made with soft water so that there is no "mineral" character which, though it might well be masked in a more nominal beer could come through in one of these delicate beers.

A partial solution to high mash pH is increased calcium in he mash. This is not a very good solution for the light beers under discussion because it takes a lot of calcium to move pH appreciably and even the amount of calcium found in normal water (without addition) can get you into trouble WRT No. 2.

I'm asking because I'm trying to attempt a small-ish group -- maybe 2 or 3 -- beers to target for the summer and fall. Making, essentially, the same beers over and over again -- but adjusting the treatment numbers according to the spreadsheets.My pH meter is on its way

If you are doing light beers seriously consider RO water to lower both the hardness and especially the alkalinity. For the delicate lagers your sulfate is even a bit high. A 1:1 dilution would put you in pretty good shape WRT all of these factors.

Use the spreadsheets for "what if" calculations i.e. "What if I add 2 grams of CaCl2 - what would my total calcium be?" but don't be guided by them. Use the pH meter for that. Don't let them convince you that you need 50 ppm calcium. Several beers (the light lagers) are brewed with lower calcium than that (and many with more). You will find out whether you need that much (or more) calcium by varying the amounts you use in repeated brews and seeing which gives the best result.

-- as is 2# of acidulated malt -- so, in my case, I'm assuming I'll be using the 2% or so sauermalz per brew when I veer away from the brown/black and into the pale ale/ipa territory to bring down the pH and acidify my mash.

Remember that it is 1% per 0.1 pH drop desired. If you brew with your water as is the mash pH (for a light beer) may come in at 5.8 and you would need 4% to get to 5.4. If you cut 1:1 (or more) with RO water and use some caramel malt your mash pH could come in as low as 5.6 and you would need only 2%. But keep in mind that this 1%/0.1pH thing is a rule of thumb just as 50 mg/L Ca++ is a rule of thumb. There are times when rules of thumb don't apply. In the case of the sauermalz let your pH meter be your guide.

If I acidify my mash too much -- if even after the sauermalz sits and gets adjusted -- is it possible to add chalk to the mash on the fly to bring up the pH? Or is it better to aim low with the sauermalz and not overshoot in the first place?

The latter. You can use chalk to salvage an overly acidified beer but you can also wind up spending the brew day chasing pH with chalk and acid. Much better to be conservative and not undershoot especially early on before you appreciate how "sensitive the controls are". I'd even say that if you used too little acid and got to pH 5.6 that you should go ahead with the brew and then increase sauermalz by 1% next time and 2% the time after that in order to get an appreciation for the effects of pH on beer as well as to "calibrate" your sauermalz additions.

 

[PaulHilgeman]

Hey, another Chicago brewer here. I am in Arlington Heights. I am not sure if we get water from the same place or not, but it is coming from the lake either way. I got a ward labs report 2 years ago, and it basically concured with the Chicago Water Report, and your numbers above.

IMO, our water is good for brewing beers that are 8 SRM and higher. At 7-10SRM, you can consider some salts to slightly adjust the pH and *maybe* some lactic acid, but salts can mainly be used for flavor adjustments, but the water will make great beer. For say an IPA in the 6-9 SRM range (where most of my IPAs are), you should definitely be adding gypsum (both for flavor and to get the Ca up a bit). If they are 6 SRM, consider a few mL of lactic acid too to nail down your mash pH. My basic rule of thumb for our water and for a 5 galon batch is about 1mL of lactic acid for each SRM unit below 8, and I add to the mash only, never sparge water. I batch sparge so I think it is a little less important for me. If I feel like I need more gypsum or CaCl than I would put in the mash, I will add it directly to the kettle.

For your 'boring' IPA, maybe the mash temp was wrong, but if you are concerned about the flavor ions (CaCl and CaSO4) you can experiment with actually adding them to a beer before you drink it, just calculate it all out and if you can 'back-adjust' this IPA, then you know your problem was with the overall flavor ion concentration and levels, rather than the mash pH. Keep in mind though that the two are not mutually exclusive.

-Paul

 

[bobbytuck]

Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it.

I'm sending off a sample to Ward labs this weekend, so I'll post here when I get a response back. Your info is fantastic. I'm brewing a 12 SRM red ale this weekend (with a bit of rye) so post back my experiences and pH numbers.

EZ Water is telling me essentially what you've above. With a 8.75# grain bill, including .75 crystal, I should be getting a pH of around 5.49 or so in the mash at room temp. My plan is add a gram or two of gypsum and cacl2 to balance out the flavor ratio -- and maybe punch up the malt just a tiny bit. I'll have some lactic acid at the ready in case I see the pH much above this.

One thing I'm still confused about: if I do decide to add 1ml of lactic acid, EZ water drops the pH to 5.39 and the residual alkalinity goes to -47 or so.

In Palmer's spreadsheets, he asks for a "target residual alkalinity." Is this "target" anything other than the mash's ability to drop to a specific pH? In other words, I have no idea what my "target residual alkalinity" should or shouldn't be. I know where I want my pH -- or, at least, I know where I *don't* want my pH -- but isn't the real question the ability to manipulate pH to a given target instead targeting a specific RA to get to a specific pH? I realize RA and pH work together -- but I'm confused about where I should target the RA given any style (whereas I have a feeling where I should target the pH -- or at least a sense that, say, I don't want a stout with a too-low pH or it's gonna taste like an ashtray.)

Does a low -- or negative -- RA mean that the pH is equally low? In my red ale example above, 1ml of lactic will drop the RA to -47 and the pH to 5.39 (according to my numbers and the EZ spreadsheet calculations). This, I assume, is too low of a pH (or is it)? Or is this too low of an RA but an okay pH? I guess I haven't yet wrapped my head around this.

 

[TyTanium]

Bump. I found this thread extremely useful and figured other Chicagoland brewers may as well.

 

[bobbytuck]

After a couple years of little to no brewing, I finally got a PicoBrew and an RO (portable) sink unit.

I was googling around to find info on RO dilutions (still in Chicago -- and my numbers are still pretty similar) and lo and behold -- I found this -- my -- old thread as the first Google result.

Anyway, I ended up brewing a Pilsner with Wyeast 2007 and 75% RO water and 25% Lake Michigan water (my first test run of my RO water).

Will post the results here. Added 1/4 tsp gypsum and 1/4 tsp CaCl.

BTW -- the Apec portable RO generator is great. I bought a ppm meter, and my results went from 175ppm from the tap to 12ppm via the RO generator.