Chasing an infection

[elbinwyp]

I know there are several threads similar to this. I have spent hours reading threads trying to identify whats causing my infections. This last batch was my final attempt. I am out of ideas. I will detail my procedure/experiences....

- Have now had 4 infected batches in a row. Fermentation has a normal smell for ~2-3 days and then turns into a vomit smell. FG will be near 1.000, even with S-05. A saison, cream ale, and NEIPA all end up smelling the same awful smell/taste.

- Fermented in existing bucket, glass carboy, and brand new bucket.

- I use starsan on brew day. Make a batch in the fermentation bucket. Soak my spoon, wort chiller, airlock, tubing ( I did not use tubing this past batch and drained straight from kettle to bucket). The bucket/lid gets several shakes and then emptied.

- Brewing in a brand new basement we moved into in November. Had 3-4 good batches before starting to get infection. Have an EBIAB.

- Before last batch, took off ball valve, soaked in oxiclean, and boiled.

- I grind grain in opposite side of basement in a different room

I cannot think of anything else the cooled wort touches on the way to the fermenter. This leads me to something airborne. I do have kombucha fermenting in the same room with just a t-shirt over the jar. What else could I be missing?!

 

[doomy86]

Always take the ball valve apart and clean it.
Use new starsan mix in a brand new container/sparay bottle.

Do you have pictures of your system?

 

[rhys333]

The hour long boil should kill anything in the ball valve. Milling your grain indoors could well be the culprit. I would move that operation outdoors and away from your fermenting equipment. That dust really spreads everywhere. Consider replacing transfer tubing and check any surfaces that could have grain dust.

 

[Maylar]

(from belgiansmaak.com) Vomit smell: Butyric Acid is caused mainly by bacteria during the wort production phase but it can also be produced by bacteria when beer becomes spoiled once it’s been packaged.

Apparently the bacteria responsible for it will survive a boil.

 

[elbinwyp]

Sorry for the delay. I have been traveling for work.

Came home and checked the carboy with one of my first infected batches. First signs of a pellicle forming.

So, a few things I intend to do before next brew:
- Break down ball valve and sanitize interior of valve
- Use new brew bag (mine has has mold on it in the past. I put it in washing machine but given butyric acid can survive boil, I am going to remove this variable.)
- Grind grains in garage
- Soak boil kettle in star san
- Use new or no tubing to drain kettle.

Any other ideas?

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

How do you chill your wort?

 

[2trout]

If I remember correctly Starsan works partly on Ph? Mix it with distilled water.

 

[elbinwyp]

How do you chill your wort?

Stainless wort chiller. I have soaked it in bucket of star SAN prior to chilling and put it in boiling kettle for a few minutes. I usually stir fairly vigorously during chilling with my stainless spoon.

 

[elbinwyp]

If I remember correctly Starsan works partly on Ph? Mix it with distilled water.

Would RO work for this as well? I'm not sure I following what you mean tho. Are you saying mixing with tap water results in a less effective solution?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Are you using PBW? I'd soak everything in 130 degree PBW for 24 hours. You may want to consider changing up your sanitizer just to see if you have something that's developed a resistance. Saniclean, iodine or even bleach may help. Change out any tubing you are using.
If you have any beer stone in your kettle then bugs can be hiding within the beer stone and your sanitizer might not be able to reach it.

Replace your old bucket.

Once you transfer your wort and pitch your yeast don't open your fermentor. Are you using an air stone?

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

tap water is generally okay .... your water would need to be very alkaline in order to reduce the ph of star san to the point of ineffectivness. This should be last on your list of things to try

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Make sure your chiller does not leak. It's pretty common for small amounts of leakage to occur around the fittings. If tap water is finding it's way into your 120 F wort, your in trouble. Yes, the tap water carries some chance of infection but the bigger worry is what lives is your hoses. The average garden hose is dirtier then your toilet.

 

[jschein]

Make sure your chiller does not leak. It's pretty common for small amounts of leakage to occur around the fittings. If tap water is finding it's way into your 120 F wort, your in trouble. Yes, the tap water carries some chance of infection but the bigger worry is what lives is your hoses. The average garden hose is dirtier then your toilet.

I was thinking the same.
Or small bits of stuff on the coils of the chiller.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good advice and hints were already given.

You mention sanitizing and Starsan, but not how you clean and which products you use. Cleaning is essential, as something cannot be sanitized unless it's clean, first.

I'm a proponent of dunking (cleaned and rinsed) items in Starsan, filling fermentors (1/4-1/2 way) with Starsan and mopping that Starsan around with a small washcloth. Pay special attention to bucket rims, lid rims, etc. places that are notoriously hard to clean.

A small thing such as a bucket handle (the space between the metal bail and plastic grip) can harbor (grain) dust, dirt, and bugs and ideally should stay down until the lid is sealed, unless you know it's clean and sanitized well enough.

Kettle valves and any other kettle assemblies should be taken apart regularly and scrubbed (brushed!) with a good cleaner, such as (homemade) PBW, or boiled in it. Any valves, threads, o-rings, clamps, hoses, etc. need to be cleaned thoroughly (scrubbed), rinsed, and sanitized. Ball valves have internal spaces that can trap wort, trub, etc. and harbor bugs over time. They don't seem to get hot enough during brewing to kill them all.

Review your cleaning and sanitizing processes in detail, maybe there's something you're missing.

Another thought:
What kind of yeast are you using? Is it reclaimed/harvested yeast? Do you make starters?

Good luck in your hunt for the culprit! Be meticulous, you'll find it.

 

[DasBierBaron]

Keeping equipment clean actually does more than sanitation. Bacteria can be pretty resistant to sanitizer. They like to live in tubing and joints, particularly if you use threaded fittings with Teflon tape. I would suggest thoroughly cleaning everything, boiling your tubing and npt fittings for a good 20 minutes, and using an iodine sanitizer from time to time.

The most likely point for contamination is going to be your tubing you use to transfer to your fermentor, a pump, kettle ball valve, or the fermenter itself, so put extra attention there. Some bacteria might survive a boil, but I'm skeptical as to it being enough to spoil a beer with a good start to fermentation, unless your grain is rotten or something.

 

[Sir-Hops-A-Lot]

Here is a way to begin isolating the problem:
Brew an extract kit in a stock pot, using tap water added to cool the wort. Use dry yeast from a packet and use your carboy to do a primary in the same location as usual.
Then you have eliminated the boil pot, cooling coil, garden hose, oxygen stone and transfer tube.

 

[elbinwyp]

Thanks for the comments!

I brewed today. Did a 3.5% session saison. Here was my procedure:

Everything got taken apart, dunked in a bleach solution, rinsed several times, and then dunked in star san.This includes all stainless parts. It was a quick (2-3 minutes) soak in bleach. 1 Tbsp per five gallons.

- Broke down the ball valve
- The kettle got scrubbed inside and out
- Wort chiller
- Fermentation bucket (only 2nd use, have not scrubbed it with anything abrasive)
- Brew bag
- Brew spoon
- Airlock
- bucket lid
- Element tri-clamp
- Element got a rag wipe down

Stuck with BIAB in my regular kettle. New Belle Saison yeast.I did not drain the kettle through the ball valve, instead I dumped the kettle into the bucket. I have not had a chance to get new tubing so I didnt want to risk that. I had a new batch of starsan in my ferment bucket and everything touching wort stayed in the solution. No leaks on chiller.

Fingers crossed!

 

[elbinwyp]

Fail. Woke up this morning and sniffed the airlock. Same smell. I cracked the lid and got a big whiff of the stank.

So. What now? Does this mean I missed something or does this mean something is surviving my bleach and star san?

I can do an all extract beer in my kettle to remove the brew bag from the equation. But if the infection survived the bleach soak, then how can I assume anything is getting sanitized? Do I assume the stainless equipment is clean, replace the bucket (only 2 batches in it with no scratches), and proceed with brewing extract batch?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the comments!

I brewed today. Did a 3.5% session saison. Here was my procedure:

Everything got taken apart, dunked in a bleach solution, rinsed several times, and then dunked in star san.This includes all stainless parts. It was a quick (2-3 minutes) soak in bleach. 1 Tbsp per five gallons.

- Broke down the ball valve
- The kettle got scrubbed inside and out
- Wort chiller
- Fermentation bucket (only 2nd use, have not scrubbed it with anything abrasive)
- Brew bag
- Brew spoon
- Airlock
- bucket lid
- Element tri-clamp
- Element got a rag wipe down

Stuck with BIAB in my regular kettle. New Belle Saison yeast.I did not drain the kettle through the ball valve, instead I dumped the kettle into the bucket. I have not had a chance to get new tubing so I didnt want to risk that. I had a new batch of starsan in my ferment bucket and everything touching wort stayed in the solution. No leaks on chiller.

Fingers crossed!

I'm sorry to have to say this again, but I still don't see any cleaner being used. PBW (bought or homemade), Oxiclean (scent free, generic is fine), or even common Washing Soda (not baking soda) are the cleaners (detergents) we brewers use to clean our equipment. They degrease, remove and suspend grime and all kinds of dirt. Bleach is NOT a cleaner, it has no detergent properties.

Remember, something cannot be sanitized (bleach, Starsan, Iodine) unless it's clean in the first place.

 

[IslandLizard]

Fail. Woke up this morning and sniffed the airlock. Same smell. I cracked the lid and got a big whiff of the stank.

So. What now? Does this mean I missed something or does this mean something is surviving my bleach and star san?

I can do an all extract beer in my kettle to remove the brew bag from the equation. But if the infection survived the bleach soak, then how can I assume anything is getting sanitized? Do I assume the stainless equipment is clean, replace the bucket (only 2 batches in it with no scratches), and proceed with brewing extract batch?

So sorry to hear this. Something is definitely wrong.

This putrid smell occurs already after one and a half day? Are you sure you're not smelling fermentation by-products. They can be sulfury (rotten eggs, burned rubber).

Is there a white haze over the beer, blowing bubbles?

It's almost impossible for a bacterial infection to take hold that quickly, especially after pitching yeast.

Just beating the bushes.

• Do you remove the bag during the boil?
• Do you use your "mash paddle" to stir your boil?
• Is there a lot of mash matter sticking to the top part of the kettle and lid during the boil? Grain is loaded with lacto bacteria, if they make it into your chilled wort, it will get infected.

Something is being missed...

 

[elbinwyp]

I'm sorry to have to say this again, but I still don't see any cleaner being used. PBW (bought or homemade), Oxiclean (scent free, generic is fine), or even common Washing Soda (not baking soda) are the cleaners (detergents) we brewers use to clean our equipment. They degrease, remove and suspend grime and all kinds of dirt. Bleach is NOT a cleaner, it has no detergent properties.

Remember, something cannot be sanitized (bleach, Starsan, Iodine) unless it's clean in the first place.

No reason to apologize, I appreciate the input. My post failed to describe the cleaning process. I always do an oxiclean overnight soak in the buckets. Cleanup after brewing consists of a water rinse to get hop/break materials off of the stainless equipment. I will then splash it with star san. When I went to bleach/star san before brewing, there were no visible signs of residue, grime, etc. HOWEVER, I do not typically soak the kettle, chiller and other pre-fermentation equipment in oxi-clean. After Sunday's brew day I did throw some oxiclean in the kettle with the chiller sitting in it to change things up.

 

[elbinwyp]

So sorry to hear this. Something is definitely wrong.

This putrid smell occurs already after one and a half day? Are you sure you're not smelling fermentation by-products. They can be sulfury (rotten eggs, burned rubber).

Is there a white haze over the beer, blowing bubbles?

Each time this has happened, there is a clear change in smell right around 2-3 days. And after that point, it never leaves. Before I went to bed the beer had a very typical saison-y/yeasty/almost sweet aroma coming from airlock. This morning it was completely different. The bad beers that are ~3-4 weeks old have this same smell unpleasant smell but it intensifies. The saisons have a very slight belgian taste at the very end but everything else is offensive. The cream ale is completely dominated. The cream ale also fermented down near 1.00, which us-05 should not have done on its own.

There's definitely active fermentation going on and krausen has formed.

 

[elbinwyp]

Just beating the bushes.

• Do you remove the bag during the boil?
• Do you use your "mash paddle" to stir your boil?
• Is there a lot of mash matter sticking to the top part of the kettle and lid during the boil? Grain is loaded with lacto bacteria, if they make it into your wort, it will get infected.

Something is being missed...

Good questions. Bag gets pulled and hangs above kettle while coming to a boil. When wort is nearing boil, I squeeze bag and remove it.

My stainless steel spoon is used to both stir the mash and used during the boil. While its not in the wort, it is immersed in a bucket full of star san.

As a result of BIAB, my kettle remains quite clean. Only thing that gets up on sides of the kettle are hop/break material if the boil starts to foam/rise. I use fermcap to help control this.

The only thing I can think of that has changed in my process from previous successful batches to these is a bag of grain that got forgotten and had some mold spots on it. I have been operating under the assumption that a ride through washing machine and bleach would kill that.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] The only thing I can think of that has changed in my process from previous successful batches to these is a bag of grain that got forgotten and had some mold spots on it. I have been operating under the assumption that a ride through washing machine and bleach would kill that.

Yeah, there's not much that can survive that. Besides your wort gets boiled, anything that gets boiled is well pasteurized.

Just wonder if anything unpasteurized is allowed to touch your chilled wort or beer. Are you milling in the same place you brew or ferment? Grain (and the dust) contains lots of lactobacillus.

Butyric acid is produced in large quantities by Clostridium, the Cl. Butyricum strain especially. Are the smells coming from the fermentor like a mash tun that has been sitting in the hot sun for a few days? That's butyric acid!

 

[elbinwyp]

I popped the lid of the bucket today and snapped this picture. I also sampled a previous infected saison that is about 3 weeks old. Same smell as new batch. The taste is apple juice + bile. Very bitter and acidic. It gets you at the front of your mouth. Just the faintest taste of saison.

So here is the worst part of all this, I have committed to brewing three 5 gallons batches of beer for an early June wedding. I need to get this thing figured out!!!

I am considering cleaning the bucket and doing a quick cider to make sure my bucket is clean. Then brew an extract beer in my kettle, no brew bag and see how that ferments. Since this batch turned out bad, should I go through whole bleach, rinse, starsan process again or just star san?

 

[IslandLizard]

You say bleach, but IMO you need to use PBW. Buy or make some, it's easy. It contains TSP/90 one of the best detergents.

Have you dismantled all the connectors in your kettle and cleaned all the orifices and threads with a brush and PBW? The heating element's tri-clover port? Taken the ball valve apart, is it a 3-piece or a 2-piece valve? The 3-piece ones are the easiest to clean as they come apart totally, with nothing to hide. 2-piece valves also come apart, but you need to slide the ball out to clean the seat and chamber behind it.

What does the lid on your bucket fermentor look like? Is it cleanable? Is that a standard brew bucket? The rim looks kinda thick/wide.

You really need to re-scrub everything that touches your wort and beer with hot PBW using a nylon brush. Something got missed. Inside ports, use a baby bottle's nipple brush, or a round Stainless or nylon brush. I am sure there's a crevice or hideout somewhere causing your misery. You don't happen to have a spigot on your bucket fermentor, do you?

And for the heck of it, maybe make or get another bag?

If you brew indoors, maybe there's something floating in your brew area, or dropping from the "rafters" that causes the infections.

 

[doomy86]

Have you made a new batch or checked the PH of your starsan mixture?

 

[rhys333]

Someone above commented about transfer tubing. This is a likely cause and one that plagued me early on in my brewing hobby. If you're using tubing to transfer wort from kettle to fermentor, I would stop doing that. It's an unnecessary step that's increasing the risk of infection. Pouring through the valve or over the lip of your kettle is preferable.

EDIT: reading back I see you addressed this.

 

[elbinwyp]

I have good news! My all extract batch, no BIAB, has fermented clean. I then brewed a BIAB batch, using a cheap paint strainer bag and also have clean fermentation about 48 hours into fermentation. Additionally, I have a cider fermenting clean in a bucket that previously had an infected batch. Thus, the infection must be in the bag. AND, I am able to clean and disinfect buckets that previously had bad batches. This is all good news.

A few takeaways for those following the thread:

- There are threads out there saying that a moldy bag can be saved. Perhaps in some instances it can. HOWEVER, in mine, a trip through washer on hot, a soak in oxi-clean, bleach, and star san was not enough. Something survived all of that AND the boil. Buy a new bag.

- I developed some better cleaning and sanitation habits through all of this. I used to just rinse all my stainless equipment with water and call it a day. I have now gotten in habit of soaking EVERYTHING in oxi-clean after brew day.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Dcpcooks]

Cheers

 

[ShareBrewing]

What about the kombucha? After all it's a mix of some pretty funky bacteria and fungi (including yeast)... and you only have it covered with a shirt/clothe. It's the same concept as having different fermentation chambers/spaces for your Brett/sour beers and your clean ones. As a sour brewer I have been battling this issue since I've started. I have a moderate one-bedroom apartment that has carpet and all kinds of clothe-like material that the funky Brett ingrained itself in, not to mention all my clothes as my more than half dozen sours ferment together in my bedroom closet. It's just IN THE AIR, dude.

All the flavors and smells that you describe are directly in line with those compounds found naturally in kombucha. Given that beer is a different environment than kombucha, obviously this is why the bugs are taking off and souring your beer so fast, there's simply more nutrients for the bugs to feed on.

Because you're brewing and storing your equipment in the same closed air space as your kombucha, you're just contaminating everything at all times. It doesn't matter how much you obsess about cleaning if any air from your house/basement can get into the carboy and then your batch is contaminated.

This is why I simply stopped brewing and bottling at my apartment entirely. I go to my parents to brew and ferment ALL of my clean beers and haven't had an infection since. When you stopped having the infections, was the kombucha bottled up already or still present? If it was fermenting alongside all your infected batches, it'd be the culprit. I've NEVER heard of a beer forming those kind of funky sour acids THAT fast.