CFC - How big??

[psykobillys]

Hey all. I have an approx 25' counter-flow chiller I built (the copper-in-garden hose variety). It works well, but I want to run the wort a little faster. This one is 1/4" (I think, can't recall for certain, maaaaybe 3/8") copper tubing. I wanna step up to 1/2" copper pipe, which will likely be surrounded by 1" OD tubing or PVC or whatever I get to work best. My main question is: how long does the exchanger need to be? 20'? 30'? I would like to run out of the kettle as quick as maybe 2-4qts per minute... Any thoughts?

 

[P-J]

You can make a copper in copper CFC using 1/2" OD copper tubing inside 3/4" OD copper tubing. You would only need 25' total coil length for it to be an efficient chiller (equalized temperature at the output point). The real problem in fabricating this is the coiling process. You must choose a form that has a fairly large diameter for you to accomplish the coiling process without kinking or flattening the tubing. I used a pressure cooker (about 13" in diameter) as my form and it was difficult.

Here is a link to the build process that I have used to fabricate copper in copper chillers. You can see the 1/2" unit at the bottom of the page.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

You can make a copper in copper CFC using 1/2" OD copper tubing inside 3/4" OD copper tubing. You would only need 25' total coil length for it to be an efficient chiller (equalized temperature at the output point). The real problem in fabricating this is the coiling process. You must choose a form that has a fairly large diameter for you to accomplish the coiling process without kinking or flattening the tubing. I used a pressure cooker (about 13" in diameter) as my form and it was difficult.



Here is a link to the build process that I have used to fabricate copper in copper chillers. You can see the 1/2" unit at the bottom of the page.

I hope this helps you.

P-J,

Very nice...

I have 1/2 and 3/4 in copper and have been planning on building one of these. I assume you straightened both coils before feeding the 1/2 thru the 3/4"?

This may be just the inspiration I need to get it going.

Ed

 

[P-J]

P-J,

Very nice...

I have 1/2 and 3/4 in copper and have been planning on building one of these. I assume you straightened both coils before feeding the 1/2 thru the 3/4"?

This may be just the inspiration I need to get it going.

Ed,

Yes - exactly. That process is a little difficult all by its self. I pull one over the other. (The method is described in the link.) Once the two are pulled together the adventure of coiling them begins. I kinked a few feet of my first try before I decided that I needed a much larger form.

You can see my 1st and second try, one on top of the other, after they were finished:

 

[Dog House Brew]

I built one with 1/2" inside 1" Goodyear Horizon hose. I used 25' and I hope it works. I was going to use the copper and actually talked to PJ about it. I had trouble rolling the coil with the copper and gave up trying to do it myself. Bought the hose and had no trouble. Really like the copper on copper ones. If mine doesn't work well I will give it a try again.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ed,

Yes - exactly. That process is a little difficult all by its self. I pull one over the other. (The method is described in the link.) Once the two are pulled together the adventure of coiling them begins. I kinked a few feet of my first try before I decided that I needed a much larger form.

You can see my 1st and second try, one on top of the other, after they were finished:

Image removed...

Yea, I took a look at the link... very informative.

My wife called me from a garage sale she was at last year and told me they had some copper for sale and asked if I wanted it. I said sure but had no idea what she was looking at... there must have been 200lbs of various size tubing for something like $10.

After re-thinking, the one coil I have may be bigger than 3/4" (it's been awhile, I need to re-measure), I may have to go with an even larger form than you did.

How straight did you have the 2 tubes before you started pulling?

Ed

 

[Catt22]

I built one with 1/2" inside 1" Goodyear Horizon hose. I used 25' and I hope it works. I was going to use the copper and actually talked to PJ about it. I had trouble rolling the coil with the copper and gave up trying to do it myself. Bought the hose and had no trouble. Really like the copper on copper ones. If mine doesn't work well I will give it a try again.

IMO, your tubing in hose will work just as well as the copper in copper. Any measurable difference in actual performance would be very trivial.

 

[P-J]

... How straight did you have the 2 tubes before you started pulling?

They don't have to be perfectly straight when pulling one through the other. Reasonably straight is good enough. Now if you were pushing one through the other, it's whole different ball game.

there must have been 200lbs of various size tubing for something like $10.

Wow, that is a major give away! You got very lucky on that one.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

IMO, your tubing in hose will work just as well as the copper in copper. Any measurable difference in actual performance would be very trivial.

I agree.
I'm interested in building a copper in copper CFC because I have the material and for aesthetic reasons.

I have a 3/8" tube in hose CFC, I'm looking for a higher flow rate.

Wow, that is a major give away! You got very lucky on that one.

Yep... It was a great find, SWMBO is a keeper.

Ed

 

[Catt22]

I agree.
I'm interested in building a copper in copper CFC because I have the material and for aesthetic reasons.

I have a 3/8" tube in hose CFC, I'm looking for a higher flow rate.

Ed

The larger 1/2" tubing will certainly give you the higher flow rate you seek. Aesthetically, it should be plenty good enough for Ohio folk.

 

[psykobillys]

thanks for the input/discussion. i'm planning on building mine sorta "hard" with straight 1/2" copper pipe surrounded by tubing or pvc. this will basically be part of my brewstand (ie - hard-mounted through the structure). do you guys think 20' of chiller length is adequate? 30'? i wanna go somewhere in a happy medium between short and relatively fast... i mean, if i use only 20', would that have the capacity to chill the wort from boiling to maybe 65-70*F (the water is usually about 50-60*F) with a relatively speedy flow?

 

[Catt22]

I built this hybrid CFC using 1/2" rigid copper. The total length of copper is about 20 ft. I pump wort through the chiller and back to the BK in a continuous loop. Works very well for me:

The outer shell is 4" PVC. I have it mounted vertically with the cooling water entering the outer jacket near the bottom and exiting near the top to prevent air pockets. These pics don't show the chiller completely finished, but you can get the general concept. I can post more pics if there's any interest. The chiller is about 36" in length. If I were to make another, I would add two more runs of copper down the center (there's room to do that) and shorten the entire unit to about 30".

 

[dshepard]

I built this hybrid CFC using 1/2" rigid copper. The total length of copper is about 20 ft. I pump wort through the chiller and back to the BK in a continuous loop. Works very well for me:


The outer shell is 4" PVC. I have it mounted vertically with the cooling water entering the outer jacket near the bottom and exiting near the top to prevent air pockets. These pics don't show the chiller completely finished, but you can get the general concept. I can post more pics if there's any interest. The chiller is about 36" in length. If I were to make another, I would add two more runs of copper down the center (there's room to do that) and shorten the entire unit to about 30".

Wow!! Very slick, how does it work performance wise? Are you pumping the wort through or using gravity. I would assume either way with 1/2" pipe the flow should be pretty good.

 

[Catt22]

I'm very pleased with the performance. The design goal was to achieve a very high flow rate for both the wort and the cooling water. I'm using a Little Giant pump to move the wort through the chiller and back to the kettle in a loop. The kettle is equipped with a false bottom which works as a hop screen. The chilling time is highly dependent on the temperature of the cooling water (as it is with most any other chiller). I've done some timed testing, but need to do it over as there were some problems with how I measured the temperatures and because of it, the data is not of much use. I'll get some realistic numbers next time I brew which should be fairly soon. I would say the performance is about equivalent to a maxichiller or similar unit. The initial temp drop from near boiling to 140F is very fast, essentially a single pass through the chiller gets it down there with reasonably cold tap water. From 140F on down varies radically with the tap water temp, but it's still relatively fast.

 

[dshepard]

Are you draining directly from the kettle, through the chiller, and then to the fermenter or recirculating back to the kettle? I have have both an immersion chiller and a CFC and have recently started using my pump to recirculate back into the kettle. At first I used the immersion chiller to recirculate, but yesterday I used my CFC. I have a copper in copper CFC. It has been hard to compare as my tap water is finally starting to drop and I am able to use the tap water longer before switching to ice water.

 

[Catt22]

No, the wort drains from the kettle to the pump then it's pushed through the chiller and back to the kettle in a continuous loop. (kettle-pump-chiller-kettle) The intent is to cool the entire volume of wort as quickly as possible. This is similar to the Jamil whilpool method only using a CFC rather than an IC. I wanted the rapid cooling in order to help retain the late hop addition flavor and aroma contributions for my Pale Ales and IPA's. It's the initial large temp drop that makes the difference IMO.

 

[dshepard]

No, the wort drains from the kettle to the pump then it's pushed through the chiller and back to the kettle in a continuous loop. (kettle-pump-chiller-kettle) The intent is to cool the entire volume of wort as quickly as possible. This is similar to the Jamil whilpool method only using a CFC rather than an IC. I wanted the rapid cooling in order to help retain the late hop addition flavor and aroma contributions for my Pale Ales and IPA's. It's the initial large temp drop that makes the difference IMO.

This is exactly what I have been doing for the last few brew sessions for exactly the same reasons.

The next task is trying to keep the break material in the kettle.

P.S. Which Little Giant pump are you using (model number)?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

The larger 1/2" tubing will certainly give you the higher flow rate you seek. Aesthetically, it should be plenty good enough for Ohio folk.

Thanks for setting that straight.

I'm not sure what the aesthetic standards are by state, maybe you can enlighten me?

Ed

 

[Catt22]

I have the LG 3-MD-MT-HC like this one:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/72471/Little_Giant_3-MD-MT-HC_Magnetic_Drive_Pump

Here's how I filter the hop debris and trub:

The pie plate type false bottom traps the hop debris and trub. Inevitably, when using a lot of hops, the flow will slow substantially as the debris cakes up on the FB. When that happens, I use the attached rod to lift the edge of the FB which restores full flow without disturbing the caked on debris. I believe this is another first for the Catt. I don't know of anyone else who uses this method. Too bad, as it works really well. Same for my hybrid CFC. The lifting rod is simply a length of 1/4" copper tubing attached to the FB with a stainless steel sheet metal screw. I bent the lift rod to fit over the lip of the kettle when in use. The FB is only lifted a mere fraction of an inch, so very, very little debris gets past it.

 

[Catt22]

Thanks for setting that straight.

I'm not sure what the aesthetic standards are by state, maybe you can enlighten me?

Ed

Lighten up Ed! I'm in Ohio too! The aesthetic standards in my area are very low. Almost non-existent. Many good examples on the People of Wallmart site. Mullets are still the rage down this way.

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798