CFC chilling in a single gravity fed pass straight to fermenter?

[Garthmuss]

Hello all,

How many of you are able to use a CFC to chill wort to pitching temps in one pass without a pump?

I’ve long considered upgrading my chiller as I live in aus and always try to make chilling as water efficient as possible. I have a pretty simple copper immersion chiller that has worked well, but it is by. I often chill to around 25-28 degrees and then put wort into fermenter and let it cool down to room temp and pitch yeast that night or the next day.

I’ve looked at many other posts about CFC efficiency and not using a pump with them (which I won’t ever get a pump I’m quite sure) and while many have had success some others haven’t been able to, and I think it comes down to dialing in flow rates of wort/cold water and length of immersion chiller.

If I end up getting an immersion chiller I think I’ll go all out and snag this Coolossus Gen2.1 - Passivated Stainless Steel Counter Flow Chiller with 1.5

it’s $265 though so I’m posting here to try and be as sure as I can it will chill my wort in one pass down to around 25C before I purchase.

thanks!

 

[marc1]

I tried without a pump and it was SLOOOOOW. After 20-30 minutes I used an old cheap pump I had gotten to try pumping wort with. Made it passable. Would not be good on water usage.
I switched to a RipTide a couple brews later. Works great.

 

[Golddiggie]

One of the tricks to using either a CFC, or plate chiller, is to run the chill water at full blast and slow down the flow of the wort. That is how you can get to pitch temperature in a single pass. I use a plate chiller (12" wide, 40 plates) to chill my batches. I go from about 195F to around 65F in minutes. My 7-8 gallon into fermenter batches are chilled in about 5-6 minutes. We did a 13.5 gallon batch that was chilled to pitch temp in 9 minutes. I do have pumps in use to move the wort (or HLT water) that are installed on my brew stand.

IME, plate chillers are hard to beat for rapid chill. The only 'issue' comes from hops plugging them. But, that can be countered via a couple of different methods. From what I've been reading, brewery level (1bbl and above rated) plate chillers don't seem to have this issue.

Both of my pumps are from Chugger. I have the TC fitting heads (center inlet) and they work really well. The only item on my brew stand that isn't a native TC fitting is the plate chiller. Next one I get will be.

 

[Garthmuss]

One of the tricks to using either a CFC, or plate chiller, is to run the chill water at full blast and slow down the flow of the wort. That is how you can get to pitch temperature in a single pass. I use a plate chiller (12" wide, 40 plates) to chill my batches. I go from about 195F to around 65F in minutes. My 7-8 gallon into fermenter batches are chilled in about 5-6 minutes. We did a 13.5 gallon batch that was chilled to pitch temp in 9 minutes. I do have pumps in use to move the wort (or HLT water) that are installed on my brew stand.

IME, plate chillers are hard to beat for rapid chill. The only 'issue' comes from hops plugging them. But, that can be countered via a couple of different methods. From what I've been reading, brewery level (1bbl and above rated) plate chillers don't seem to have this issue.

Both of my pumps are from Chugger. I have the TC fitting heads (center inlet) and they work really well. The only item on my brew stand that isn't a native TC fitting is the plate chiller. Next one I get will be.

7 gallon batches chilled in 5 mins huh! interesting. Maybe I'll have to spring for the CFC. I'm pretty against a plate chiller and also a pump, I'll stick with an immersion chiller before I purchase either of those. I think I'd be happy if I could get close to those results with a CFC. I do BIAB so pumps have never been needed and I've enjoyed not having to clean one or run an extension cord/set one up.

If I could use the CFC to chill in one pass to my fermenter, and have it land around mid 20 degrees Celsius, I think I'd be a lot happier with that than my current immersion chiller.

 

[myndflyte]

I'm pretty against a plate chiller and also a pump

I thought the same thing until I got a pump. After that, I don't know why I never had one before. I do BIAB too but I still recirculate during the mash and no more lifting 6 gallons of wort to gravity transfer it to the fermenter. And I thought I'd never own a plate chiller until I saw one in action.

 

[Golddiggie]

7 gallon batches chilled in 5 mins huh! interesting. Maybe I'll have to spring for the CFC. I'm pretty against a plate chiller and also a pump, I'll stick with an immersion chiller before I purchase either of those. I think I'd be happy if I could get close to those results with a CFC. I do BIAB so pumps have never been needed and I've enjoyed not having to clean one or run an extension cord/set one up.

If I could use the CFC to chill in one pass to my fermenter, and have it land around mid 20 degrees Celsius, I think I'd be a lot happier with that than my current immersion chiller.

IME an IC can't come close to the speed of either a CFC or plate chiller. With same temperature chill water the plate chiller beats all takers.

Being against getting a pump seems a bit foolish to me. It expands your capabilities. It also makes things a LOT easier on YOU. I got my first one back in early 2011 and haven't looked back. You have several options for pumps too. I like the Chugger pumps due to the better cost and how you can actually talk with the man in charge (I've done it). Also without a pump you can only do so much. You'll be using gravity to move liquids from the kettle. Which means no recirculation during your mash process.

I have to wonder WHY you're so against getting a pump. The ones made for brewing are completely safe for boiling hot wort going through them. That includes the poly heads and stainless heads (and related parts). I like the stainless heads due to personal preferences more than anything else. Well, plus being easier to clean.

 

[easttex]

I recirculate ice water through my CFC and it still takes me ~15mins+ to get down below 37°C/100°F and I almost never end up at pitching temp. My cooling system usually stalls at 26°C/78°F. Now granted, I'm recirculating the same 6 gallons of chiller water continuously and water can only cool so much.

Still, taking 7 gallons from 208°F to 65°F in five minutes is quite a feat! You must be running a garden hose wide open?

 

[Golddiggie]

I recirculate ice water through my CFC and it still takes me ~15mins+ to get down below 37°C/100°F and I almost never end up at pitching temp. My cooling system usually stalls at 26°C/78°F. Now granted, I'm recirculating the same 6 gallons of chiller water continuously and water can only cool so much.

Still, taking 7 gallons from 208°F to 65°F in five minutes is quite a feat! You must be running a garden hose wide open?

For plate chillers, you're supposed to run the chill water at max flow rate. You slow the wort flow to hit your target temperature (or range). I also do my oxygen infusion at the wort out port of the plate chiller. Which means less to do post wort going into the fermenter (just have to pitch the yeast and it's off and running).

I'm in NH, on well water. I'm brewing in my garage and take the chill water out of a faucet in the furnace room (same level, just deeper into the house since the garage is under it). I also filter that same water for brewing. I use a good diameter hose for the chill water, and it moves FAST. NOT using the water that goes outside the house means the water doesn't get warmed up on it's way to the chiller. The 12 gallon batch we brewed (the 13+ gallons into fermenter) was chilled from the outside hose, in April. So it didn't get warmed up that much.

The long time to chill with an IC is why I went to a plate chiller over a decade ago now. I was tired of trying to get it to chill fast. I also got tired of worrying about the chill water feed coming loose and running into my wort. Neither are any concern with the plate chiller (same as with a CFC).

 

[easttex]

For plate chillers, you're supposed to run the chill water at max flow rate. You slow the wort flow to hit your target temperature (or range). I also do my oxygen infusion at the wort out port of the plate chiller. Which means less to do post wort going into the fermenter (just have to pitch the yeast and it's off and running).

I'm in NH, on well water. I'm brewing in my garage and take the chill water out of a faucet in the furnace room (same level, just deeper into the house since the garage is under it). I also filter that same water for brewing. I use a good diameter hose for the chill water, and it moves FAST. NOT using the water that goes outside the house means the water doesn't get warmed up on it's way to the chiller. The 12 gallon batch we brewed (the 13+ gallons into fermenter) was chilled from the outside hose, in April. So it didn't get warmed up that much.

The long time to chill with an IC is why I went to a plate chiller over a decade ago now. I was tired of trying to get it to chill fast. I also got tired of worrying about the chill water feed coming loose and running into my wort. Neither are any concern with the plate chiller (same as with a CFC).

Sidebar: do you recirculate for a few minutes to santize your chiller system? And that effect your inline O2 stone at all? Ever had any issue with wort creeping back up the O2 line?

 

[IslandLizard]

I think 2 stage chilling is best and most efficient.

Our homebrew chillers (plate or CFC) are small, thus the chilling channel is short, hard to get the wort chilled in a single pass, without using excess chilling water or drastically limiting wort flow. Also the temp of your water source plays a big role. Water that is 70F won't get your wort much below 80-90F.

Stage 1:
Recirculate with tap/ground/rain barrel water until your wort is ~40-60°F (~22-33C)* above the ingoing water temp.

Stage 2:
To get the last ~20-40F* down, use colder water (ice, prechiller, etc.) and either recirculate, and/or go straight to fermenter.

* Adjust for the temp ranges that are suitable or applicable to you.

An other reason to recirculate is to keep more hot and cold break out of your fermenter.

 

[Golddiggie]

Sidebar: do you recirculate for a few minutes to santize your chiller system? And that effect your inline O2 stone at all? Ever had any issue with wort creeping back up the O2 line?

No recirculation now that I'm using the Spike+ 20 gallon electric kettle. I can run hot wort through the system before adding the chill water IF I want to. But, I've been simply running Starsan through the plate chiller after cleaning, and rinsing it. I usually do that when I'm running Starsan through the conical fermenter. Since it's easy to add that to the loop. The oxygen infusion setup gets dunked into the Starsan bucket on brew day, before getting attached to the plate chiller.

I use a wort strainer before the plate chiller. That keeps the hot break out. I have zero issues with some cold break getting into the fermenter. Over the past several batches doing this, I've had zero issues. I get nice clear beer at the end. I'm also not seeing any cold break come out of the fermenter either when I do the yeast harvest, or when I do the conical cleaning.

IMO, a "two stage" method might be OK for some. But with my ground water as cool as it is (year round) I have zero need to make the system MORE complicated. Since I can get my current batch sizes chilled to pitch temperature in less than ten minutes.

 

[Beenym88]

I never do one direct pass through my CFC. I usually run it to the fermenter around 165 and cannot get it below 80 degrees. It gets to 165 while recirculating very fast though that takes about 2 or 3 minutes. It instantly takes it to 80 from there. I’m assuming it’s a limitation of how cold my water is.

 

[superiorsat]

I think 2 stage chilling is best and most efficient.

Agreed but not always needed in Golddiggie"s case. It would definitely solve Beenym88"s problem. I run a huge 57 foot 1/2" ID CFC I built for future plans. This thing will chill with Chugger Pump running full bore no throttling needed. I usually run a whirlpool for about 15 minutes after the boil which has the CFC and Herms coil ( home made immersion chiller style that I can put in a heated pot or a buck of ice water) in line. I will then Hit the tap water full blast. In the heat of the summer my water coming to the back garage( 100 foot of drinking water hose ) is about 68F. It will drop to about 78/79F in about 1-2 minutes but then instead of throttling the wort back to try and keep getting it down slowly I just drop my herm coil/ 2nd stage chiller in a bucket of ice water. I don't have the patience to trickle 12+ gallons into a fermenter I'd rather run at 7 gallons a minute. The winter time is even faster and no second chiller needed. I actually have to throttle back the tap water or I'm mid 50'sF in like 2 minutes running full bore. There is a reason they make 2 stage commercial plate chillers and that is for speed.

 

[eric19312]

An other reason to recirculate is to keep more hot and cold break out of your fermenter.

I used to recirc back to the fermentor but now understand this is not best practice for creating a good cold break and then separating it out. Best practice in brewing literature seems to be to separate hot break in the kettle/whirlpool and then precipitate cold break during chilling. Cold break is much smaller particles than hot break and takes hours to settle out. If reintroduced to hot wort by circulating from CFC or PC back to the kettle you will redissolve the precipitated cold break and it will be less able to form in later passes.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

In my first system, I had a CFC that I had built into a bucket and could get down to pitching temps in one pass with ground water most of the times of the year, by gravity feeding from the kettle to the fermenter.

Actually I miss those simpler times.

 

[Rob2010SS]

To the OP, if you wanted to stick with an immersion chiller, the JaDeD Hydra is by far the best one I ever used. I don't know what batch sizes you're doing but without stirring the wort or anything, the Hydra got 6.5 gallons from boiling to about 65F in under 9 minutes. Not sure what size batches you're doing but that thing was great! Still kind of sad I sold mine...

 

[Garthmuss]

To the OP, if you wanted to stick with an immersion chiller, the JaDeD Hydra is by far the best one I ever used. I don't know what batch sizes you're doing but without stirring the wort or anything, the Hydra got 6.5 gallons from boiling to about 65F in under 9 minutes. Not sure what size batches you're doing but that thing was great! Still kind of sad I sold mine...

I've looked at the hydra chiller a lot! If i dont end up getting the CFC (looking like i may not because it sounds like a pain trying to use one with just gravity) I think I'll end up getting one of those. They sure do look slick.

 

[IslandLizard]

[CFC] sounds like a pain trying to use one with just gravity

Why would that be?
When placing the CFC lower than your kettle exit valve, wort should just run through, by gravity, no? Coil would stand up, vertically, the windings being horizontal.

I would put a valve on the CFC exit to control flow, leaving the kettle exit valve wide open, to make sure the CFC wort tube remains filled for efficiency/speed.

A pump would only be needed if you recirculate, such as whirlpooling, but that can be done with a paddle/large spoon, intermittently.

 

[kevin58]

Another side note: If you buy a CFC don't get a cheap one. I did and the tubing inside through which the wort flows snapped.

 

[Garthmuss]

Why would that be?
When placing the CFC lower than your kettle exit valve, wort should just run through, by gravity, no? Coil would stand up, vertically, the windings being horizontal.

I would put a valve on the CFC exit to control flow, leaving the kettle exit valve wide open, to make sure the CFC wort tube remains filled for efficiency/speed.

A pump would only be needed if you recirculate, such as whirlpooling, but that can be done with a paddle/large spoon, intermittently.

I meant more the efficiency and time involved. Some people seem to have success without a pump and others not so much. In my head it should work well and be very possible, but that’s only in my head hah. But few have more success with as much ease and simplicity than a high end immersion chiller it seems.

 

[marc1]

I meant more the efficiency and time involved. Some people seem to have success without a pump and others not so much. In my head it should work well and be very possible, but that’s only in my head hah. But few have more success with as much ease and simplicity than a high end immersion chiller it seems.

I did not have good success without a pump. My chiller is one of the home made horizontal ones that can be partially disassembled for cleaning. I don't think there was enough drop through all of it while also keeping it below the kettle and above the fermenter.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

In the winter months, when tap water temperatures are at their lowest, at flameout, I can cool the wort down on the way to the fermentor to 68F in a single pass. When tap water is the warmest in the summer months, a single pass only gets the wort down to around 80F. At that point, I place the fermentors in the chest freezer to lower the temperature to 68F. I try to conserve as much water as possible when brewing, and this works best for me.

 

[Garthmuss]

In the winter months, when tap water temperatures are at their lowest, at flameout, I can cool the wort down on the way to the fermentor to 68F in a single pass. When tap water is the warmest in the summer months, a single pass only gets the wort down to around 80F. At that point, I place the fermentors in the chest freezer to lower the temperature to 68F. I try to conserve as much water as possible when brewing, and this works best for me.

View attachment 738871

You’re one of the cases that makes me think I’d be very happy with a gravity fed CFC, off the top of your head roughly how long is it taking you to transfer to fermenter in one pass? I generally cool to 80F as I brew mostly in the summer in aus (southern Victoria, a cooler region of aus, but nonetheless quite warm). What groundwater temps are you working with, and do you have an idea of water usage?

I currently chill to about 80F with my immersion chiller in less than 10 minutes. Even less than 5 minutes if it’s a cooler month. I think I usually a fair bit of water, but still conservative compared to the general brewing population. Very acceptable, but I like the thought ofturning a valve and having the wort come out at temp directly into the fermenter.

Also, that CFC you have there looks somewhat short. The one I’m considering is over 30 feet long.

 

[Garthmuss]

In my first system, I had a CFC that I had built into a bucket and could get down to pitching temps in one pass with ground water most of the times of the year, by gravity feeding from the kettle to the fermenter.

Actually I miss those simpler times.

I would like to remain in these simpler times, that’s why I’m trying to avoid owning a pump. But shiny new gear is too tempting haha

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@Garthmuss

The Chillzilla model I have is a convoluted counterflow chiller, and it is very compact but efficient. The inner wort tube is 1/2 inch, and the outer cooling water tube is 3/4-inch diameter. Waiting 15-20 minutes is about all the patience I have for filling each five-gallon fermentor, regardless of tap water temperature.

The summer tap water here in the northeast US is about ~75F and winter tap water is about ~65F. I don't particularly like using more than 20-30 gallons to chill down 10-gallon batches year-round—ten gallons of which I use for cleaning up the kettle at the end of the day.

 

[Garthmuss]

@Garthmuss

The Chillzilla model I have is a convoluted counterflow chiller, and it is very compact but efficient. The inner wort tube is 5/8 inch, and the outer cooling water tube is 1-inch diameter. Waiting 15-20 minutes is about all the patience I have for filling each five-gallon fermentor, regardless of tap water temperature.

The summer tap water here in the northeast US is about ~75F and winter tap water is about ~65F. I don't particularly like using more than 20-30 gallons to chill down 10-gallon batches year-round—ten gallons of which I use for cleaning up the kettle at the end of the day.

Interesting. Do you control the flowrate of your wort or the flowrate of the chilling water at all? That amount of water sounds like slightly more than what i generally use to chill a 5 to 7 gallon batch.

I imagined i would end up controlling the flowrate of the chilling water to the minimum it would take to get my wort to around 80F, to further conserve water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@Garthmuss That is a good point. I use a combination of throttling both the wort out ball valve and the tap water faucet. Of course, in winter, the tap faucet can be trimmed if needed to conserve water, but in summer, it is best left wide open and the kettle valve trimmed instead.

 

[HB2 HughBHomeBrew]

Just posting to show my gravity setup - I have a plate chiller (Therminator) not a CFC. I tried a pump once, instead of having my BK up on the box, and that was the only time it clogged. I usually have about 6g of wort and I've never timed it but just takes a few minutes. Temperature limitation is the hose water temp - I brewed a few days ago - air temp was in the 90's F, didn't check the water temp but I'm sure it was 80's and my wort was 85F - still needed the temp control (there's a chiller off screen bottom right) to get wort to pitching temp.