CDA / Black IPA recipe feedback?

[mistercameron]

I brewed this today. I think it's going to be an awesome beer, though I'm a bit frustrated with a bad crush from LHBS. Like 50% eff. So this 7ish % beer is going to end up just below 5%.

 

[smagee]

If it really bugs you, you could try upping it with a pound or two of extract to compensate. I've done that once or twice with bigger beers.

 

[mistercameron]

I thought about that, but no extract on hand and LHBS is closed til Tuesday. could I add some later this week after fermentation has already been underway or just chalk it up to experience? I'd be only slightly concerned about oxygen in the mixture but more about an extra couple lbs of fresh DME to the yeast. I'm not super upset but I would like to try the recipe as intended since technically the beer isn't going to be this recipe unless I do something.

 

[smagee]

I did that very thing with an RIS I brewed a couple months back. Your concerns are certainly valid, but I looked at it the same way I'd see adding a simple sugar after fermentation has partially finished (which I do far more often).

It's worth noting, however, that adding complex sugars like DME after the initial fermentation has finished can up your FG. With my stout, it added around 5-7 points of nonfermentables, which for an RIS is acceptable, but in a IBA probably less so. If you decide to go that route, you might consider 1lb DME and 1lb dextrose so the simple sugar can help thin out the DME addition.

Or, just leave well enough alone and chalk it up. I just figured it couldn't hurt to present the option .

 

[sendkyleanemail]

I like a little pale chocolate malt it special B in a CDA. Carafa adds the color and a hint of roast but not much in terms of depth or complexity, which is what I dig most about CDA's. Killer hop schedule, though!!

 

[beowulf]

I'm sure it will turn out well, even being lower in ABV than expected. Sometimes it's not a bad thing. My India Black Ale is constructed similar to yours and it's fantastic. I went with something like 6% C60, 4% Carafa II (didn't have "III" at my LHBS), and 2% Chocolate (not the pale variety). Hops schedule was similar, only heavier on the late hops and I used Columbus, Warrior and Centennial. I don't think it's too roasty at all. In fact I was considering adding more Carafa or chocolate next time, but it's so good as is that I'm reluctant to change it. The hops are definitely prominent. Mine is 6.66 ABV and 99 IBUs, but for some reason it doesn't taste that bitter, just perfect....maybe it's the late hops and the malty yeast...dunno. I over-boiled a bit, so that contributed to the higher IBU....I was shooting for 70-ish but oh well. It's perfect just the same.

Anyway, I digress....I think you've got a winner on your hands

 

[mistercameron]

I did that very thing with an RIS I brewed a couple months back. Your concerns are certainly valid, but I looked at it the same way I'd see adding a simple sugar after fermentation has partially finished (which I do far more often).

It's worth noting, however, that adding complex sugars like DME after the initial fermentation has finished can up your FG. With my stout, it added around 5-7 points of nonfermentables, which for an RIS is acceptable, but in a IBA probably less so. If you decide to go that route, you might consider 1lb DME and 1lb dextrose so the simple sugar can help thin out the DME addition.

Or, just leave well enough alone and chalk it up. I just figured it couldn't hurt to present the option .

On a side note, My mash temps got away from me a little bit, but I think they were high enough that I should have a decent body... Started at 153, dropped to 149 by the 45 min stir, then I added a gallon of hot water to bring the temp up to 153 again. I also let the mash go a little bit longer.

I like your idea. I forgot about the corn sugar in the pantry. I may just add whatever I have there... Its not much. Probably about a # but better than nothing. I think I read some other post where Yooper said DME adds about 8 points per lb in a 5 gal batch. I'll probably assume the same for the dextrose.

The body of the wort seemed fine when I did the post hydrometer sample and share with curious family. I guess we'll see

Thanks for the input!

 

[smagee]

I usually count 7pt/lb for simple sugar, 8-9pt/lb for DME (at least according to beersmith). Sounds like you're in good shape, and should have the body to support a bit of extra simple sugar. I'd definitely go that route rather than the DME, given your circumstances. Good luck!

 

[mistercameron]

Smagee,

Do you normally just keep plain light extract on hand for situations like this, or do you have a little bit of everything depending on how light or dark the recipe is?

 

[smagee]

I usually have a few pounds of light DME lying around for making starters (maximum of 3lbs, minimum of 1 or so). My LHBS is literally 2 miles away though, so in emergencies I can always make a quick run.

I almost never use anything darker than "light" unless I'm working from a recipe that specifically calls for it.

 

[mistercameron]

I usually have a few pounds of light DME lying around for making starters (maximum of 3lbs, minimum of 1 or so). My LHBS is literally 2 miles away though, so in emergencies I can always make a quick run.

I almost never use anything darker than "light" unless I'm working from a recipe that specifically calls for it.

That makes sense. I have some mason jars of yeast I've been planning on trying to make starters from, so that will be a good reason to make pick some up next time I'm in. Right now I have my dextrose cooling, but it's looking too thick right now for the fermenter. This isn't a major inconvenience, but wasn't planning on having to learn this lesson this weekend.

 

[Nemleu]

I've been working on one too, and plan on brewing this:

Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.26 gal
Estimated OG: 1.071 SG
Estimated Color: 32.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 99.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 87.3 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.3 %
12.0 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.5 %
1.00 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 54.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 5 38.5 IBUs
0.30 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 5.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 8 0.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 9 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Day Hop 10 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 12.0 oz

 

[smagee]

If you're looking for feedback on that, I'd suggest bumping that 45 minute Simcoe to 15 minutes left or later (I'd actually put it at flameout, but it depends on how much you like hop flavor). Also, make sure you're going with the Carafa III Special/Dehusked.

I'd also advise more dryhops, but again, that will vary depending on your taste preference. 7 days with one ounce is pretty low even for a less hoppy IBA, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also, you're only losing half a gallon over a 60 minute boil? That sounds like an interesting set of equipment! Did you specify that based on past experience? With a standard pot, I'd be surprised if you're losing so little with a solid rolling boil.

 

[mistercameron]

I took my first hydrometer reading Wed night at 1.010 an doing the third tonight. It's probably done.

The flat beer tasted alright. Thinking back, I think LHBS had the Carafa II, so I went with that, rather than Carafa III Special. The II is roasty enough that I don't know if I would add as much III in there, unless the Special really does remove quite a bit of the bitterness. The bitterness was reminiscent of coffee, though not overpowering. I'm going to dry hop it in the keg, but even as such, I think this recipe could do with a little bit more hops in the boil. We'll have to wait and see on the dry hopping. I may add more.

Smagee... you mentioned in an earlier post about this recipe almost being like a "hoppy dry stout". I've been thinking about that statement. What would make it not a hoppy dry stout, but more a CDA?

 

[smagee]

To be honest, it seems to be a pretty fine line (at least to me) between the two. Your original recipe was a bit lower in hops than a lot of the other IBA recipes I see floating about, which as we discussed, was relatively fine with you (as I recall). For instance, my last IBA attempt had 4oz of dry hops in addition to 2oz at flameout, 2oz at 5 minutes, and 2oz at 10 minutes, not to mention the bittering addition and whatever I had for flavoring. In my first post here, I mentioned that this batch was quite hoppy initially but faded quickly into a more stoutlike character (which was also delicious, mind you). This is all to say that even with as much hops as I tossed into mine, it didn't come out quite to what I picture when I think of the style.

A lot of this comes down to the somewhat flexible definition of the style itself, so it's really a subjective thing for the time being. In order to steer away from the more stoutlike aspects in your recipe, I'd add a couple ounces of flavoring hops (say, 1oz at 5 and 1oz at 10 minutes?) so there's a bit of flavor retention--you might even bump one of them to 15 to ensure that it lingers long enough. Also, if you really ended up with a non-dehusked carafa, that makes a massive difference, particularly with a full pound in the mash. To reduce the roast (and to be clear, I think *some* roast in an IBA is excellent, but not as much as mine ended up with), I'd go dehusked if you haven't already, and I'd only mash about 8oz or so for the full time, adding the second half with 10 minutes or so left in the mash (or just steeped separately). That'd take out some of the coffee that makes it so reminiscent of a stout.

The dehusked aspect is probably the most critical, followed by splitting the carafa infusions, then followed by upping the hops. It sounds like your current one's hop flavor is getting largely drowned out by the coffee/roast, so you may very well not need more hops for your taste (particularly since you were targeting 21st's version/type). I'd suggest doing incremental changes, particularly with the first two (ensure you have dehusked and split the carafa infusion into two steps) before you tweak your hop schedule. That way you can fine-tune it later if necessary without ending up with a batch that's such a hop bomb that it's just unpalatable to your taste.

... That came out as more of an essay than I anticipated! I suppose the flexibility of the style really lends itself well to brainstorming/tweaking .

 

[mistercameron]

That's good information, actually. I just made a phone call to the new LHBS where I got the grains to see what they have in stock. I guess I was right the first time - it was Carafa Special II they had in stock. Either way, they don't cary the Special III, so that part of my recipe will have to change, or I go out to the other LHBS. Will that make a big difference?

Assuming I like this enough to try the next variation, I think I'll go with the split carafa infusion as you suggested, AND up the hops a bit, including more late additions. I'll have to play around with the numbers on the computer. I do remember that while formulating the recipe I kept roughly to the OG and IBU guidelines. Even then, there's plenty more wiggle room.

 

[Nemleu]

If you're looking for feedback on that, I'd suggest bumping that 45 minute Simcoe to 15 minutes left or later (I'd actually put it at flameout, but it depends on how much you like hop flavor). Also, make sure you're going with the Carafa III Special/Dehusked.

I'd also advise more dryhops, but again, that will vary depending on your taste preference. 7 days with one ounce is pretty low even for a less hoppy IBA, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also, you're only losing half a gallon over a 60 minute boil? That sounds like an interesting set of equipment! Did you specify that based on past experience? With a standard pot, I'd be surprised if you're losing so little with a solid rolling boil.

Thanks for the advice Smagee.... I changed the Simcoe to 15 minutes, and bumped the dryhop to 2 ounces of Amarillo. The Carafa is the Special. Regarding the boil.... To be honest with you I just haven't had time to screw around with BeerSmith 2. I target 6.5 gallons for my starting volume, and after boil off and trub I usually end up with a touch over 5 gallons. (BeerSmith 1 was a little more user friendly)

 

[mistercameron]

I don't know if I've seen this post before, but here are some proposed guidelines
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/ca...-ipa-no-carafa-126215/index2.html#post2544777

 

[smagee]

That's good information, actually. I just made a phone call to the new LHBS where I got the grains to see what they have in stock. I guess I was right the first time - it was Carafa Special II they had in stock. Either way, they don't cary the Special III, so that part of my recipe will have to change, or I go out to the other LHBS. Will that make a big difference?

The only significant difference between the two carafas will be color, particularly if you split the additions in the mash. II should suffice.

 

[smagee]

Thanks for the advice Smagee.... I changed the Simcoe to 15 minutes, and bumped the dryhop to 2 ounces of Amarillo. The Carafa is the Special. Regarding the boil.... To be honest with you I just haven't had time to screw around with BeerSmith 2. I target 6.5 gallons for my starting volume, and after boil off and trub I usually end up with a touch over 5 gallons. (BeerSmith 1 was a little more user friendly)

Yeah, I've had some growing pains upgrading from 1 to 2 as well. So long as you know your system though, just go with it .

 

[mistercameron]

Downed the inaugural pints last night and brought a growler to a Christmas party.

This turned out really good. I don't know if I'd change much of anything in the recipe. 2oz of dry hops is enough, IMO.

 

[Nemleu]

Downed the inaugural pints last night and brought a growler to a Christmas party.

This turned out really good. I don't know if I'd change much of anything in the recipe. 2oz of dry hops is enough, IMO.

I brewed this in November and bottle conditioned. Absolutely wonderful beer! I served it up to some of the judges in our brew club. Their opinion was that I hit this one out of the ballpark. I’ve been asked to make up another batch for a beer pairing dinner. All I have to do is find Amarillo and Simcoe…. They are getting hard to find! BTW: I used 12 ounces of Carafa III and crushed them with the 2-row and 60L.

Mistercameron, I thank you!!

 

[mistercameron]

I brewed this in November and bottle conditioned. Absolutely wonderful beer! I served it up to some of the judges in our brew club. Their opinion was that I hit this one out of the ballpark. I’ve been asked to make up another batch for a beer pairing dinner. All I have to do is find Amarillo and Simcoe…. They are getting hard to find! BTW: I used 12 ounces of Carafa III and crushed them with the 2-row and 60L.

Mistercameron, I thank you!!

That's fantastic! Thanks for sharing - really made my day. I just kicked the keg this past weekend, so it's back on the short list after I get a couple other planned brews out of the way.

Did you do the same dry hop schedule I posted? Curious if doing more would significantly change the balance of this beer.

 

[Nemleu]

That's fantastic! Thanks for sharing - really made my day. I just kicked the keg this past weekend, so it's back on the short list after I get a couple other planned brews out of the way.

Did you do the same dry hop schedule I posted? Curious if doing more would significantly change the balance of this beer.

Looked something like this:

12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row)
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
12.0 oz Carafa III
1.00 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
0.30 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins)
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min
1.0 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-)
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Day Hop

Cheers!

 

[builderguy]

we really liked how this came out...



BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Home Brewing Software, Recipes, Podcast and Blog
Recipe: Black Sea Cascadian Dark Ale - 5 gal
Brewer: Tom Karvonen
Asst Brewer: Dave Estis
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.01 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 39.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 77.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
-
6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 42.9 %
3 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 21.4 %
2 lbs Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6 14.3 %
1 lbs Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) Grain 7 7.1 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8 5.4 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 9 3.6 %
8.0 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 10 3.6 %
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 11 1.8 %
0.50 oz Galena [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 12 18.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 13 18.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 14 6.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 15 14.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 16 11.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 17 7.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 18 1.0 IBUs
2.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 0.0 mins) Other 19 -
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 20 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold (Whole Leaf) [8.50 %] - Dr Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe (Whole Leaf) [13.00 %] - Dry Hop Hop 22 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 21.50 qt of water at 161.5 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.31 gal water at 168.0 F
Notes:
------
Lactic Acid to be added to Sparge Water NOT Mash @ 0.12ml/Gallon in the HLT

Bottled with ESB Yeast WLP002 - Just for fun on 7/31

Created with BeerSmith 2 - BeerSmith Home Brewing Software, Recipes, Podcast and Blog
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[mistercameron]

I just brewed the same recipe again. Last time I cad Carafa SP II, which turned out great. This time I'm trying it With the Carafa Sp III. I really like this enough to put it into regular rotation.

 

[Nemleu]

I just brewed the same recipe again. Last time I cad Carafa SP II, which turned out great. This time I'm trying it With the Carafa Sp III. I really like this enough to put it into regular rotation.

I’ve made it twice with Carfa III. It’s a house favorite and hard to keep in stock. Like any IPA the fresher the better.

 

[mistercameron]

I’ve made it twice with Carfa III. It’s a house favorite and hard to keep in stock. Like any IPA the fresher the better.

I'm very pleased with my recipe here, but what gets me the most is the cost of Simcoe at nearly $4.50/oz at LHBS . I may try something else next time.

 

[smagee]

Or branch out from the LHBS. I love supporting mine, but they can't get either Simcoe or Amarillo (among others), so one has to visit other options...
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=87

 

[mistercameron]

I'm going to rack the Carafa SP III version tonight. The hydrometer samples tasted noticeably roastier, more than I think this beer should taste like. I'll taste it in a couple weeks once it's dry hopped and carbed and make a comparision to some of the bottles I saved from the last batch. My hunch is that I'm going to stick with Carafa SP II for the official recipe.