Cascadian Dark Ale/Black IPA: Should it be a new style in BJCP?

[Hugh_Jass]

It's more of a porter in the malt bill and I think has a completely different vibe than IPA. It's not that new either. But if like you say it is just an IPA then should it not be in the IPA category???

That's not necessarily true. Some examples of black ale do have similar qualities to a hop forward porter. Others are very close to an IPA with a higher SRM. If you closed your eyes when drinking my current black ale recipe, you'd swear it's an IPA w/just a slight hint of roast.
2-row, vienna, wheat, and Carafa II, an ass load of simcoe and amarillo hops, and simple, clean ale yeast (1056 or equivalent)

 

[Irrenarzt]

If done right, it really still is an IPA in a sense as it should be hop forward but with some roast undertones in place of any caramel notes. The problem is nobody is really putting any thought into the style and are just overhopping porters which is not the way this style should be built up IMO.

Start with a highly fermentable grain bill and sub carafa III in place of the small amount of crystal and you should have a decent black IPA.

For instance, take Vinny's Pliny recipe. I don't recall it exactly but it has a pound or less of crystal. Sub that out for carafa III and voila. You have a stellar black IPA.

 

[mrgstiffler]

If done right, it really still is an IPA in a sense as it should be hop forward but with some roast undertones in place of any caramel notes. The problem is nobody is really putting any thought into the style and are just overhopping porters which is not the way this style should be built up.

Start with a highly fermentable grain bill and sub carafa III in place of the small amount of crystal and you should have a decent black IPA.

For instance, take Vinny's Pliny recipe. I don't recall it exactly but it has a pound or less of crystal. Sub that out for carafa III and voila. You have a stellar black IPA.

Some breweries are taking the easy route, but not all:

http://beernews.org/2010/03/deschutes-hop-in-the-dark-cascadian-dark-ale-debuts-this-may/

Hop in the Dark is THE perfect example of the style.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Well, you seem to be the SME on the style seeing as you have had more than most. I will see if I can find the Hop in the Dark and see if I agree. I've not had many commercial examples as I have been brewing them myself. I find the ones I like the best to be the ones that are not as malt forward but I am open minded when it comes to learning a newer style if I can find a better combination than what I have previously done. I'm on my fourth iteration now as I just brewed one on Saturday.

 

[terrapinj]

def seems to be different takes on these amongst commercial brewers as well

i've had some that are just a very dark IPA and others that have the roastiness but still not in the porter territory

Hop in the Dark grains:
Pale Malt
Flaked Oats
Munich Malt
Dark Crystal Malt
Chocolate Malt
Chocolate Wheat Malt
Black Barley
Toasted Oats
Dark Candy Sugar

I tried the Stone 15th Anniversary Balck IIPA this weekend and really enjoyed it, nice balance of roast and citrus hops without overwhelming the palette

Vital stats: 10.8% abv, 100 IBUs
Malt Bill: Pale Malt, Cara-Bohemian, Carafa III Special, and Chocolate Malt
Hops Bill: Columbus (bittering), Citra (flavor/aroma). Dry-hopped with Nelson Sauvin and Pacific Jade.

and from the Stone Blog - perfect quote for this thread

“There’s this small faction of people that seems to think it can call Black IPAs ‘Cascadian Dark Ales,’ historical accuracy be damned,” Wagner explains. “So, we thought we’d lightheartedly lay claim to our own style, dubbing it ‘Escondidian,’ both as an homage to our hometown of Escondido, CA and as a gentle ribbing to those Black IPA fans worshipping a false Cascadian idol.”

 

[mrgstiffler]

Well, you seem to be the SME on the style seeing as you have had more than most. I will see if I can find the Hop in the Dark and see if I agree. I've not had many commercial examples as I have been brewing them myself. I find the ones I like the best to be the ones that are not as malt forward but I am open minded when it comes to learning a newer style if I can find a better combination than what I have previously done. I'm on my fourth iteration now as I just brewed one on Saturday.

I was going to post this exactly reply:

i've had some that are just a very dark IPA and others that have the roastiness but still not in the porter territory

Some of the ones I've had can best be described as a "Black Ale". They're bitter and roasty with pretty much no hop flavor. Others are basically IPAs with black coloring. My favorites are the ones that are towards the middle but leaning towards the hoppy end. Hop in the Dark goes even a step further and makes it smoooooooth.

I'm very adamant about this because some of my favorite beers are on that list. I really don't care if it's an official style or just a specialty. I just don't want it to be a passing fad.

 

[moinkyschmoink]

I used some blue food coloring in my latest wheat beer. It's midwesternwiezen then, right?

 

[Beezy]

I have never had a black IPA that didn't have the roastiness from the dark malt. If it's truley dark just for the sake of it. I think that's pretty dumb. The citrus hops and roast together makes a new flavor and its quite pleasant for me.

 

[Spintab]

IMO you should be able to close your eyes and either taste an IPA or a schwarzbier (minus the lagerness), both independently and combined. I made both a schwarz and an IPA last year and literally mixed the two recipes plus a touch of black patent. It was spot on with what I was going for. Hop forward in aroma and flavor with a pleasantly roasty backbone and a little bit of that camp fire charcoal from the patent.

There's a brewery RJ Rockers, I think it's in TN, that makes a dark IPA called Black Pearl. Awesome, probably the best black IPA I've had. 21st Amendment has their Fade To Black that's pretty decent as well. And last but not least, Heavy Seas Black Cannon is a great example of the style.

 

[Beezy]

I started on the 21a. Everyone I have had I liked so far. I think my fave is Thornbridge Raven from England no less. They were pretty hard to find. I went to the g-store the last time and there was about 6 or 7 different ones there.