Carboy problems

[bocklover]

I have 4 6 gallon glass carboys. 3 make great beer. But one always seems to ruin a batch every time it's used. I let it set unused for over xa year. Then decided to try to use it again. I soaked it in PBW for a week rinsed it 10 times and sanitized with star san, it still ruined the next batch. It's there a way to fix it or trash time?

 

[day_trippr]

Bleach Bomb from orbit

 

[mac_1103]

One cannot sanitize that which is not clean. Even with a bleach bomb from orbit.

Since it's glass, you can try scrubbing the living daylights out of it with barkeepers friend and one of these or maybe even one of these. Then hit it with the bleach. Lots of bleach. Fresh bleach. Diluted about 1:10.

 

[bocklover]

I did clean it. I used PBW, let out soak for a week. I always read that PBW was the best cleaner. So your saying it's not clean? I also used brushes.

 

[IslandLizard]

Inspect that carboy closely for any dull or dirty or discolored patches inside. Give them special attention when brushing, using BKF. Also, don't forget to clean the (inside) bottom with that 90° carboy brush, and pay special attention to scrubbing the corner where the bottom meets the sidewall. It's a tight corner, and the brush may not reach all the way (deep) in there without some acrobatics, bending the metal wire into the right shape/curve.

Other thoughts...

• Could it be the stopper you're using?
• Does this carboy happen to have a spigot in the side? Those are notorious for hanging onto infections if not removed and cleaned/sanitized meticulously.

 

[mac_1103]

I did clean it. I used PBW, let out soak for a week. I always read that PBW was the best cleaner. So your saying it's not clean? I also used brushes.

You did say you soaked it in the first post, but you didn't say that you scrubbed it until this one. Soaking isn't always enough. If you think you've scrubbed it as well as you can then it might be time to give up.

 

[day_trippr]

Got a couple of good pictures to show?

 

[IslandLizard]

Got a couple of good pictures to show?

Yes, please...

 

[hotbeer]

Chlorine bleach will sanitize better than StarSan. The issue is that it's not a no-rinse sanitizer as is StarSan or Iodophor.

You can soak it in the bleach solution for the appropriate time, then let if drain and drip almost dry and stick it straight into your normal sanitizing solution.

Perhaps if you re-use your Star San, you should consider making another batch since you might have had something get past it.

 

[Deadalus]

Does the carboy have ribs? Are there any scratches visible on the inside, particularly around the neck? Where was the carboy made?

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm surprised nobody asked you what the characteristics of " a ruined batch" are. HOW was it ruined? Failed fermentation in what way, or just tastes bad - if so what are the bad flavors?

 

[bocklover]

It fermented fine. Had a really bad taste that I can't describe. Looks totally normal just had a terrible taste. Can't post pics as I haven't emptied the yeast out and cleaned it yet.

 

[IslandLizard]

It fermented fine. Had a really bad taste that I can't describe. Looks totally normal just had a terrible taste.

Any possible description of foul aroma/flavor? Baby's diapers, rotted broccoli, rotted cheese, spoiled eggs, puke...?

Remember, your wort will be as pasteurized as the dirtiest element that has touched it.

Have you thoroughly cleaned and sanitized everything used in the transfer of the chilled wort from the kettle to the carboy?
E.g., hoses, connectors, aerator, spigots, valves, etc. Everything that may have touched it!

If the chilled wort moves through kettle valves or spigots, they need to be taken apart from time to time for a good thorough cleaning and sanitizing inside.

I'm pointing in that direction, because glass carboys are very smooth and very well cleanable and sanitizable, as long as every inch on the inner surface is touched.

 

[bocklover]

Everything had always been sanitized. I made 4 batches within 2 weeks. And 3 came out fine. But everytime I use this carboy the beer almost taste like viniger. All sanitation is done the same way. If sanitation is the problem, why do the other batches all taste fine. I hadn't used this 1 Caboy in several years and haven't lost a brew in over 5 years till I put this caboy back on use.

 

[day_trippr]

But everytime I use this carboy the beer almost taste like vinegar. All sanitation is done the same way.

An Acetobacter infection will do that. Got fruit flies?

 

[bocklover]

We have flies, but they don't get in my beer or carboys.

 

[IslandLizard]

I hadn't used this 1 Caboy in several years and haven't lost a brew in over 5 years till I put this caboy back on use.

That certainly seems to point to that one carboy, yes.
And I find it hard to accept that its glass can't be cleaned sufficiently...

 

[jerrylotto]

everytime I use this carboy the beer almost taste like viniger.

Acetobacter or Brett can be hard to kill. An ozone generator or autoclave would work.

 

[bocklover]

Well, I don't have access to those, so I think this one is going to become a coin jar. Hard to throw it away. Thanks to all who input to try to help. Maybe I'll pick up a new one so I can keep 4 batches going. I like to keep 2 lagers and 2 pale ales on tap.

 

[jerrylotto]

Well, I don't have access to those, so I think this one is going to become a coin jar. Hard to throw it away. Thanks to all who input to try to help. Maybe I'll pick up a new one so I can keep 4 batches going. I like to keep 2 lagers and 2 pale ales on tap.

You have an oven, no? It is sounding mostly like brett - get the carboy up to 300 degrees for a bit and let it cool slowly.

 

[bocklover]

You have an oven, no? It is sounding mostly like brett - get the carboy up to 300 degrees for a bit and let it cool slowly.

Now that I'm willing to try. Just hate the thought of losing another batch.

 

[jerrylotto]

Now that I'm willing to try. Just hate the thought of losing another batch.

So make a small one!

 

[IslandLizard]

So make a small one!

A small batch fermented in a large fermenter is not good either, too much headspace for things to go wrong in.

Brewers need to be able to trust their equipment and proper sanitation regimen...

You have an oven, no? It is sounding mostly like brett - get the carboy up to 300 degrees for a bit and let it cool slowly.

Yeah, heating that carboy in the oven is likely the best strategy.
250°F is probably hot enough, but better be sure, so 300°F it is!
Make sure to measure it, oven thermostats are notoriously inaccurate. That should be able to sterilize it. Let it (slowly) cool in the oven, overnight. And avoid any thermal shock.

 

[Broken Crow]

That certainly seems to point to that one carboy, yes.
And I find it hard to accept that its glass can't be cleaned sufficiently...

I did a stupid thing early on and I should have known better, (but since the injury I've done a number of such stupid things)
I stupidly washed a carboy out with extremely hot water and only after bottling the beer did I notice the layers of fractured but seemingly intact glass that was now the bottom. Needless to say I discarded it even though it could still hold liquid and not leak....there seemed to be a bit af darkness in some of the cracking near the inner surface.
Just thought that maybe you'll want to examine the bottom very closely in very bright light.
Unlikely, but possible.

 

[jerrylotto]

A small batch fermented in a large fermenter is not good either, too much headspace for things to go wrong in.

There are strategies that can make that work, like a bag of sanitized marbles to reduce headspace or ping-pong balls or a CO2 filled balloon to fill headspace

 

[IslandLizard]

there seemed to be a bit af darkness in some of the cracking near the inner surface.

Those could be hairline fractures, caused by thermal stress. I doubt fractures like those could harbor microorganisms, but any stress induced in or around that area could cause it to crack or shatter. Simply picking it up when it's full could be disastrous. That's true for glass carboys in general.

Not to scare the OP, but have much respect for large glass vessels/objects:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

 

[IslandLizard]

a CO2 filled balloon to fill headspace

That would be my preference. Mylar, if possible (helium party balloons).

 

[day_trippr]

Thermal shock kills carboys and maims their owners. Don't do that. Keep Delta-T under 5°F always...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

[Glass Carboys] Maybe I'll pick up a new one so I can keep 4 batches going.

I think it would be much, much safer if you started moving away from glass carboys completely, and use plastic alternatives instead.

For example, use plastic buckets (HDPE) or choose from a variety of modern plastic (PET, #1 plastic) fermenters that have started to show up the past 10-15 years in different shapes, such as the Fermonster or one of the Fermzilla models. They have wide openings so the inside can be easily accessed for cleaning. The lids for these plastic fermenters can often be modified or purchased as such, hosting a variety of accessories and adapters, many to keep (unwanted) oxygen out of the fermenter, once fermentation has started.

The chief reason to avoid large glass vessels is the inherent danger when handling them. Especially carrying heavy and slippery carboys filled with 5 gallons (42 pounds) of liquid.
Shoddy manufacturing standards and lack of QC have made glass carboys especially dangerous, due to very thin localized areas, that cannot be easily detected, until they've caused harm and/or damage. But even accidentally dropping an empty, dry or wet and slippery glass carboy can cause property damage and/or serious injuries.

Need extra motivation to not use large glass vessels, such as carboys, read a few of the posts in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

 

[jerrylotto]

I agree with @IslandLizard 100% - The only thing I use glass carboys for is water storage. I have a Fast Ferment (HDPE) fermentor that I use for the most part and an S&S stainless fermenter for pressure fermentation.

 

[sibelman]

Delta-T under 5°F

Per hour?

Even though I've abandoned glass carboys, and been injured by one, I gotta say: it's possible to overstate (or, yes, understate) the risks. And the benefits.

 

[day_trippr]

Differential exposure...

Cheers!

 

[InspectorJon]

I was wondering how long it would take this discussion to go down this road...

 

[Broken Crow]

My own reason for giving up glass carboys was disability... Before I gave them up I did get the orange cap with a racking cane so I could do closed transfers and if I still had my health and reflexes I'd probably still be using them, but the sheer weight of the glass itself, even empty for cleaning, plus the labour of cleaning through a tiny opening, is too much a burden for me. There's a lot reasons one can give up on them but if you still have your health, why fix what ain't broke?
That said: I am loving my Fermonsters and would love my Fermzilla if I'd gotten the All-Rounder (I can't bend or squat easily so I have to lay on the floor to mess with the dump valve and resevoir.) My sanke/Fermhead combo has the same weight issue, but as I use those for long-term ferments, I can deal.
Just sayin'

 

[InspectorJon]

I have talked about the fact that people have widely varying levels of tolerance for risk in the past. Those differences can lead to difficulty in having civil discussion and conversation. We saw that a lot in 2020. I appreciate that a lot of helpful information was shared before the evils of glass carboys was brought to this conversation.

I have a glass carboy that I used back in the 1980s. I quit brewing because after a while it was consistently kicking out beer flavors I did not really like. I didn't think to blame the carboy at the time. I still don't know if it was a sanitation issue, yeast profile, or primitive brewing practices. I think it was likely a combination of those. When I started brewing again 6 years ago I dug it out of my garage, washed it well and filled it with a 10% chlorine (Clorox) solution, sealed the top and let it sit a week. It has consistently kicked out what I consider to be good to great beers since then. I too find it difficult to believe your glass carboy cannot be sanitized. I would not throw it away. I kept mine for 30 years, but that's just me. I have kept a lot of other stuff, just ask my wife...

Acetobacter or Brett can be hard to kill.

Can these survive a 10% chlorine environment? That is an honest question, not sarcasm.

 

[jerrylotto]

Can these survive a 10% chlorine environment? That is an honest question, not sarcasm.

The only 100% effective way I've found to get rid of these has been heat or ozone. Especially if there's plastic or rubber involved (where heat isn't an option).

 

[day_trippr]

Sodium Metabisulfite can effectively kill acetobacter bacteria in glassware. It is a common sanitizer used in the brewing industry to prevent contamination and spoilage.

Importantly, however, it will not work on soiled surfaces, so first step is to ensure the carboy is truly clean. Then make up a pint of sterilizing solution using 1 tsp of Sodium Metabisulphite (or 10 crushed Campden tablets). Stir to dissolve, then use the solution to coat the entire interior surface, and leave it for 10 minutes before rinsing thoroughly...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

When I started brewing again 6 years ago I dug it out of my garage, washed it well and filled it with a 10% chlorine (Clorox) solution, sealed the top and let it sit a week.

According to the SDS, Clorox is 4-9% sodium hypochlorite. According to their dilution ratio chart, the exact concentration looks to be a bit north of 7%. So you didn't fill your carboy with 10% chlorine even if you used the Clorox right out of the jug. A 1:10 dilution of standard strength chlorine bleach is approximately 0.7% hypochlorite. And hypochlorite is unstable at low concentrations unless the solution is acidified, so letting it sit a week was probably a waste of about 5 or 6 days.

 

[sibelman]

One thing about a nice, reasonably strong dilution of Chlorox and its ilk (say 1 bleach to 10 water, % hypochlorite = whatever): it cleans and sanitizes. But you gotta rinse it well.

 

[whoaru99]

Dunno... to me anyway seems like between trying to fix and confirmation of fix that $50-$60 cost of replacement (or less if going PET) seems like a fair trade.