Carbing 12% barleywine after 4 months in secondary

[Zanzibeer]

Need help with this one, other thread info has not been helpful with my particular situation.

3 gal batch of amazing BW, 12% ABV and has been in secondary about 3-4 months. Looking to bottle when I go home this weekend.
But my buddy and I are concerned about simply adding sugar solution for priming as we suspect the yeast will either not be able to handle the high alcohol and we will just sweeten or the yeasties have simply fallen out of suspension after such a long aging process.

We used approximately 1 packet of us05 and 1 packet nottingham, when we transferred to secondary we had about a gallon of yeast at the bottom of the bucket.

Curious what others with experience would reccomend in this situation?

Add priming sugar and bottle condition another couple months?
rehydrate a gram of yeast in priming solution to mix in?

Any info will help and is greatly appreciated

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I've recently had success with an 11% BW in the same sort of shape, aged for a while. I used a sort of mixed krauesening approach. Make a starter and when the starter's very active, bottle using some additional sugar.

I used Kai's spreadsheet:

Can't post the link because it opens and saves the file and gives me some bogus url. But in Google, enter "kaiser krauesen carbonation calculator" and it's the first search result.

Worked like a charm for me.

In the past I've tried just bottling as normal and also tried adding dry yeast (US-05) at bottling with less than good results. Just bottling simply didn't work, even after waiting 6 months. Bottling with US-05 didn't work. Popped those bottles and dosed 'em with champagne yeast, which worked, but that was a very dry Belgian. I wouldn't want to do that with a BW that has more residual sugar as the champagne yeast might overdo it, dry it out and make bottle bombs.

Anyway, using the spreadsheet's pretty easy. I didn't bother measuring the SG on my starter at pitching. I just made around 1.040 starter, figured it was around 1.025 at pitching, then dosed with additional sugar to reach my desired volumes of CO2. Stored the bottles at 73 and checked one after 3 weeks and it was totally carbed up very nicely.

 

[Zanzibeer]

Sounds good, thanks!
This seems like a very logical remedy and better than anything I was considering.

 

[Sheldon]

I have been told (and other recipe directions I have seen) that it is a good idea to add a high alcohol conducive yeast 3 days prior to bottling. I have a 10+5 barleywine in secondary right now. will be adding some dry hop pellets at some point prior to bottling as well.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Sounds good, thanks!
This seems like a very logical remedy and better than anything I was considering.

You're welcome.

I used White Labs WLP001, BTW. Pretty decently alcohol tolerant strain.

 

[smokinghole]

It's my understanding that champagne yeast can't metabolize the sugars after an ale yeast has done it's job. I guess the ability of champagne yeast to metabolize maltose sugars or maltotriose is dependent on the stain. I have used champagne yeast in a BW but it was a 1.020 not something like 1.030. Dry champagne yeast is the cheap route.

If you want to be absolutely sure use some wlp099. That thing is a champ at carbing up beer.

 

[BryanJ]

Ill bump this since I think I'm his buddy. Thanks for the responses so far.

 

[Zanzibeer]

To throw another variable into the equation the OG was 1.140 and FG 1.040...

So would it be worth it to simply pitch only the small starter, of WLP001, since there should be enough sugar left to bring it down a little?

 

[mikeysab]

To throw another variable into the equation the OG was 1.140 and FG 1.040...

So would it be worth it to simply pitch only the small starter, of WLP001, since there should be enough sugar left to bring it down a little?

is your gravity steady? if it is, then I don't think adding more yeast is going to get it down any more. if there isn't any more sugar for the yeast to eat, then it's pretty much done. adding yeast won't magically increase the sugar content and lower your gravity. personally, I'd call it done, let it age a couple weeks, then proceed as usual.you're still going to get a good beer and it'll be a nutcracker. i'd say it's done, so enjoy it and be glad you made a good beer (and get good n drunk too)

 

[BryanJ]

^ The beer has been in secondary for 4 months after a 1 month primary. I repitched us-05 during primary fermentation after it hit a steady 1.040 and nothing.

 

[wyzazz]

If you want a beer to carb in the bottle that has been sitting a long time, I have an almost foolproof way. Pick up a sachet of Red Star Montrachet or any other dry Wine/Champagne yeast, sprinkle 1/3 of a packet in to the bottling bucket as you are racking your beer in there and let it sit for at least 30mins to ensure it's been mixed in well. The Wine yeast will survive the high alcohol environment, and eat ONLY the simple sugar left in the beer (this should be priming sugar at this point). I've done this for most of my high alcohol/extended tertiary beers and they've carbed up within 3 weeks perfectly. No bottle bombs, no uncarbed bottles, everything is just fine and dandy.

And if your beer isn't down far enough for you, then you can always add some amylase enzyme and warm it up. That's done the trick for me in some instances.

 

[HItransplant]

To throw another variable into the equation the OG was 1.140 and FG 1.040...

So would it be worth it to simply pitch only the small starter, of WLP001, since there should be enough sugar left to bring it down a little?

zanzibeer... what ultimately happend to this batch? I have a very simliar issue where my 1140 stopped at 1043 and 1056 (split ferment with 2 different yeast.

is your gravity steady? if it is, then I don't think adding more yeast is going to get it down any more. if there isn't any more sugar for the yeast to eat, then it's pretty much done. adding yeast won't magically increase the sugar content and lower your gravity. personally, I'd call it done, let it age a couple weeks, then proceed as usual.you're still going to get a good beer and it'll be a nutcracker. i'd say it's done, so enjoy it and be glad you made a good beer (and get good n drunk too)

mikey-- problem is, how do you know if fermentation stopped because the sugars are gone... or because the yeast is drunk? Im concerned that with my 1056 (and to a lesser degree, the 1043), that there is still fermentable sugar in there.. the yeast are just too wasted to finish fermenting.. so I tried US 05 and will likely go to montrachet next to try to dry this out a bit as it is waaaaaayyy toooo sweet.

 

[ericd]

Add an 1/16 tsp of amylase and some new yeast, I guarantee that'll get it down.

 

[HItransplant]

Add an 1/16 tsp of amylase and some new yeast, I guarantee that'll get it down.

again, that makes sense if the problem is un-fermentable sugars, but I guess I dont understand how that helps the yeast if the ABV is too high.

can you help me understand this?

 

[smokinghole]

If there are fermentable sugars left and he add amylase he should probably add WLP099 as well. That stuff is fine dropped into a beer like this at 12-14%. Just make a starter decant it and I would add some of the 12% barleywine to get the yeast awake and active again. Then dump the yeast and small bit of barleywine back into the fermentor. Hell he could probably try that with out amylase. Keep the temp around 70 when doing this which should allow the yeast to fairly easily finish fermentation. I would be careful with WLP099 though and let it go for a good amount of time and verify with gravity readings. I have used it in the past it although all signs point towards it's finished, that yeast slowly chews for a while.

 

[HItransplant]

If there are fermentable sugars left and he add amylase he should probably add WLP099 as well. That stuff is fine dropped into a beer like this at 12-14%. Just make a starter decant it and I would add some of the 12% barleywine to get the yeast awake and active again. Then dump the yeast and small bit of barleywine back into the fermentor. Hell he could probably try that with out amylase. Keep the temp around 70 when doing this which should allow the yeast to fairly easily finish fermentation. I would be careful with WLP099 though and let it go for a good amount of time and verify with gravity readings. I have used it in the past it although all signs point towards it's finished, that yeast slowly chews for a while.

Would Montrachet work?

 

[smokinghole]

The issue would be whether or not there is maltotriose sugars left. Ale and Lager yeasts can consume maltotriose but champagne and wine yeasts cannot as a rule.

 

[HItransplant]

The issue would be whether or not there is maltotriose sugars left. Ale and Lager yeasts can consume maltotriose but champagne and wine yeasts cannot as a rule.

I presume there is no way of knowing that... Or can you speculate from the recipe?

 

[Zanzibeer]

At this point I am assuming that the only sugars left are unfermentable.
I am very pleased with the flavor. I am simply trying to find the best way to carb for bottling without causing bottle bombs or having sweetened flat beer.

I have never krausened a batch before and I am hesitant to try it simply because Im afraid Ill crew up this delicious BW since its 3 gal of nectar...

Was planning on bottling it this weekend if i figure out the best way

 

[smokinghole]

With that being the case you could just bottle it with some champagne yeast and call it done. I've done that and you don't have to worry about the champagne yeast consuming the maltotriose sugars.