Can't get Homebrew to feel like like I want...

[blackstrat5]

Now, this question may be real stupid, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

I started doing extract kits, then AG. Well my extract kits all had this "watery" or lack of mouthfeel compared to commercial beers. (excuse my descriptions I'm not real sure how to describe it). I thought AG would cure it, but I'm still getting this watery, or lack of fullness to the beer that commercial beers seem to have. Is it a homebrew thing I should just get used to? Is my water doing this (filtered tap water)? Is my process doing this? Is there an ingredient (malto-dextrin) I should be adding? Just looking for insight.

I'm sure you'll have questions for me to help give you better answers/ suggestions to fire away please..

 

[JonK331]

Could be any number of things. Maybe your water, maybe your recipes, maybe your process. If you could post a summary of your process including temperatures of your mash and also a recipe that you feel came out watery, we can try to troubleshoot. Also post your gravities, I'm wondering if by "watery" you mean "dry." A simple pale ale with some quality 2-row, around 10 percent Munich malt for melanoidin, and some crystal malt mashed at 152 or so should not seem "watery." The only time I've had issues with a beer being watery is if a large portion or corn sugar is used or mash temp is too low. Could also be not enough malt or poor efficiency. Also post the type of base malt you are using, a poor quality base malt could also be a factor.

 

[Frodo]

One easy thing to check is to make sure your thermometer is reading correctly. Get another and compare them, also check in an ice water bath that it reads 32F, and at boiling (at sea-level) 212F. If it doesn't at least you'll know how far it is off.

 

[jgardner6]

First thing that came to my mind was gravity or co2.

 

[blackstrat5]

Well, the first one that comes to mind is a Brown Ale.

8.80 lb 2-Row
0.84 lb Caramel 40
0.42 Chocolate
0.42 Brown

At the time it was unfiltered tap water (Baltimore City water). I reached a Mash temp of 152 and held for an hour. It finished after the hour at 150. Now for measuring the temp, I used a lab thermometer, that I stuck in a few places of the tun and held it there for 10 seconds then read it. The temperature always seems to be within 2 degrees of all the readings. It was at a 1.25 qt per lb water/grain ratio. I sparged with enough water to produce 6.5 gallons for the boil (boiled a gallon off).

Other than that, the only sugar added was Corn sugar for priming and that was at bottling. It was 1.050 OG and 1.015 FG. I think somewhere around 70% efficiency?

I can give my beer to other people who immediately recognize it as a homebrew with I guess it could be a dryness, although it seems sweet and watery.

 

[fatguy-littlecoat]

are there chloramines in baltimore water? if yes... did you use campden tabs to remove it?
try bottle water on a batch and see if it is different.

 

[blackstrat5]

..I don't believe there are chloramines used. I did install an under the counter filter. Now my water bottle doesn't taste like pool water at the end of the day.

Would carbonating using priming sugar have an effect on the mouthfeel, or dryness of the beer at all?

 

[jgardner6]

Priming sugar no but force carbing for a few weeks can make a beer seem watery intill the co2 dissolves into the beer.

Primary- 10 Gal Oatmeal Stout
Secondary- Brett Saison
Kegged- 10 Gal Black IPA, Wet Hop Citra Pale Ale, Sorachi Ace Pilsner
Bottled- Zeus IPA, Berliner Weisse
Next- Kolsch, Greenbelt Pale Ale, 100% Brett Pale Ale

 

[Synovia]

How long are you waiting from bottling to drinking?

Sounds like Green Beer to me.

 

[blackstrat5]

My Nut Brown was bottled back in september. I think I need to find another experienced homebrewer around here, take them the beer and see if they can help me trouble shoot.

It's a watery sweet dryness, something. It seems hard for me to explain. And I have no idea what could be causing it.

What in the mash process could potentially cause this watery/ sweet dry aspect of a beer?

 

[samc]

Have you checked your hydrometer in distilled or RO water for a 1.000 reading?
How long is your beer in the fermenter?
What kind of yeast?
Fermenting temps?
How much sugar for bottling?

 

[wildwest450]

Could be as simple as adding carapils to your next batch.

 

[blackstrat5]

I haven't checked the hydrometer in RO water yet. My attenuation has always been within 4% of target. It's not just the Nut Brown that has done this, but all of my beers so far. So, I think it's something with my process. Maybe it's ingredients, I've only used liquid yeasts. I guess I could add carapils or maltodextrin and see if it helps.

My fermenting temps usually hold at 68, except I've had a batch or two get away from me in the first 24 hours and shoot up to 76. Which I managed to cool back down.

Bottling sugar has always been calculated by Beeralchemy. Depending on the style anywhere from 3 oz to 5 oz.

 

[jezter6]

Blackstrat:

We have an active group here on HBT from the Baltimore area. Hit me up if you need any assistance. Also check sig for next brewday if you want to come up and see how we do things Harford County style.

 

[permo]

My first 10-20 brews were also easily identifiable as homebrew, due to haze, off flavors, and other issues. I have since addressed the issues and I can give you the advice that made my beers better in order of importance.

****sanitation is a precedence that I assume is taken care of****

1. Pitch the appropriate amount of healthy yeast, from a homebrew perspective if you are using liquid or washed yeast, this often means using a very large starter.

2. Pitch the yeast cool and maintain the temp of fermentation at the proper temperature

3. use plenty of O2 and nutrient

4. use a fining agent, personally I am in love with gelatin in the keg and irish moss in the boil.

5. use the freshest hops, malt you can ( maybe this should be #1?)

6. calibrate your thermometer and adjust your mash temps based on yeast strain being used....WLP001, Pacman etc..etc.... if you mash low you will have a very dry beer.....

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

Can you post a recipe for an all grain beer that came out thin? Are you using proven recipes or are you coming up with things yourself?

 

[sam]

Just guessing but it could be a wild yeast getting in there at bottling time. To confirm, you can de-gas one of your "watery" beers and take another hydro reading to see if the gravity has changed since you packaged the beer. If the gravity is lower, you know something is getting in there and munching on stuff that is unfermentable by brewers yeast.

 

[Revvy]

I was thinking the same thing as wildwest about adding carapils... I've noticed even as little as 1/4 pounds goes a long way towards body and mouth feel. Try taking one of your established recipes and working even that amount in, and see if that helps.

 

[blackstrat5]

Jezter6: The next Brewday is dec 11? I'll try and make that one. Maybe bring some of these beers I've made and get some suggestions.

On the other note..I try to be attentive to sanitation. I did make a starter for the Brown ale. It was 1.050 OG, but the wyeast 1028 London Ale was 5 months old so I made a starter with a stir plate.

I'm in an apartment, so as far as temp control I don't have the rom for a full size fridge. I'm still working on finding a minifridge I can fit a carboy in. I may just end up converting a top loading freezer. I can usually still keep the fermentation to 68.

I don't have an O2 system, the best I've been able to do is a lot of splashing which I know is no where near effective. Should I be adding yeast nutrient to my beers?

I do use irish moss.

The hops are as fresh as I can get them, and I always reseal what I have left with a vacuum sealer and in the freezer. The grain is usually milled a couple of days before brew day. (currently making my own mill so I can start buying grain in bulk).

My thermometer is calibrated, its pretty accurate with the ice bath.

I'll post a couple of recipes that I can tell are homebrews. They are my own recipes. The first recipe I brewed that wasn't mine just got bottled this past Monday, I'll see how different that is. It's a Chocolate Mint Stout from Randy Moshers "Radical Brewing".

 

[blackstrat5]

I'm going to give that a try with the carapils to satisfy my curiosity.

On the other hand, I noticed with the first extract beer I brewed, conditioning it (lagering) it in the fridge at least a week before drinking made a significant impact on mouthfeel. I'm wondering if I'm missing something after bottling.

I should be letting it carbonate for a couple weeks, then should I be lagering or conditioning for some amount of time? The Brown ale was bottled in late september and even a c ouple of bottles that sat in the fridge for over a week still had that thin mouthfeel/taste.

 

[BargainFittings]

If you are crash cooling and then drinking it within an hour or so, you are not letting the co2 in the head space absorb into the beer. It will escape when you open the bottle.

Try chilling a six pack for at least 24 hours and try it against one that is chilled quickly.

If they still have a thin mouth feel your carbonation levels might be a bit low.

What sort of head do you get when you pour the beer?

 

[blackstrat5]

I don't get much of a head. It quickly dissipates. I've been trying to calculate the amount of priming sugar needed by selecting the beer style and having beer alchemy tell me.

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

I'll post a couple of recipes that I can tell are homebrews. They are my own recipes. The first recipe I brewed that wasn't mine just got bottled this past Monday, I'll see how different that is. It's a Chocolate Mint Stout from Randy Moshers "Radical Brewing".

If you've been designing your own recipes without having much experience brewing, that is most likely your problem. I would stick with brewing established, proven recipes until you have a better feel for what different ingredients add to your beers.

 

[blackstrat5]

If you've been designing your own recipes without having much experience brewing, that is most likely your problem. I would stick with brewing established, proven recipes until you have a better feel for what different ingredients add to your beers.

...Fair enough.

I did just brew Randy Moshers Chocolate Mint stout. It was just bottled Monday but I'll see how that turns out to be.

I did use 3.5 oz of priming sugar for 4.5 gallons. As per Beeralchemy calculation.

 

[olivergothe]

put the lab thermometer into boiling water. I had one once that read boiling water at sea level at 200 degrees F. That screwed up a nice german pils that I was trying to mash at 142. (ended up probably mashing at 132)

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

If you can give an example of one of your recipes, we might be able to tell you what's wrong with it, provided that is the problem.

Also, 3.5oz of priming sugar should be about right for 4.5 gallons of a sweet stout as long as your beer fermented around 65 degrees. I usually use this calculator: http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

 

[RBlagojevich]

if more body is what you want, you can also mash at 160 in order to have more body, i.e. a less fermentable wort.

 

[blackstrat5]

8.80 lb 2-Row
0.84 lb Caramel 40
0.42 Chocolate
0.42 Brown

I mashed at 152 for 1 hour. with a Fuggle addition 1.5 oz at 60 and a .5 oz at 10 minutes for 28 ibu. I used Irish Moss. The beer fermented at 68 with wyeast 1028 London Ale. I bottled at the same temp with 3.5 oz of priming sugar.

 

[Frodo]

..I don't believe there are chloramines used. I did install an under the counter filter. Now my water bottle doesn't taste like pool water at the end of the day.

It's a carbon filter that you use and it does state that it takes out chloride/chloramine?

It might not hurt (except for the $) to brew a batch with bottled water just to rule out your water as the culprit anyway.

 

[Mermaid]

In my limited, rookie experience it's 2 things that have screamed "home brew" - one is chill haze and the other is lack of carbonation.

In my (very humble) opinion, I think that getting the right level of carbonation can correct for some lack of depth to flavor. The super tasters / experienced tasters will catch any flaws, but as long as it's not infected or cloyingly sweet (under attenuated?) if your beer is sparkly clear and carbonated, it will be less obvious.

In the "Dead Guy" ale clone I brewed back in September, (a PM batch), it had chill haze but when force carbed in my tap-a-draft it tasted pretty good even though it was a bit on the sweet side.

I am going to use gelatin to clear the batch sitting in the primary now, I think gelatin is probably going to kick my beer into the "proudly share with others" category from the "I'll share this with friends who understand and/or someone who can offer good suggestions to correct my mistakes".

I'm also learning that slow and steady wins the race - my stove sucks so I boil longer than 60 minutes. I switched to doing smaller batches of AG so I can practice more to perfect the process.

Do you have any issues with your stove/cooker? Are you mashing/sparging for long enough time at the right temps? I bought a new thermometer recently just to make sure that I was hitting my target temps - as I think the el cheapo floating thermometer I was using was off by as much as 10 degrees F.

On chloramines - an under-the-sink filter doesn't get rid of them. Unless you really read your local water "report" - you are not going to know there are chloramines in your water until it's too late. I only use bottled water now for that reason - my community adds chloramines to the water.

 

[Yooper]

8.80 lb 2-Row
0.84 lb Caramel 40
0.42 Chocolate
0.42 Brown

I mashed at 152 for 1 hour. with a Fuggle addition 1.5 oz at 60 and a .5 oz at 10 minutes for 28 ibu. I used Irish Moss. The beer fermented at 68 with wyeast 1028 London Ale. I bottled at the same temp with 3.5 oz of priming sugar.

That's a pretty low mash temp if you want a dextrinous mouthfeel. I'd suggest double checking your thermometer, and making sure that at 152, it's really 152. If you mashed at 149 or 150 instead, you'd get a pretty thin beer.

 

[0110x011]

I'd agree that your mash temp seems low. I'd try mashing at 156 for an hour and see how that does for you.

 

[ghpeel]

A brown ale with less than a pound of crystal mashed at 152F sounds like it would come out a little dry to me. Lots of dark-roasted grains can add an astringency sometimes that makes a beer come across as dry. I've actually given up making darker beers (which i don't enjoy anyway, so no big loss) because they tend to come out this way.

Re-do that brown, with 1.25lbs of crystal, a little less chocolate, and mash at 155F. After an hour max, make sure to do a proper mash out (165F-170F, but not higher) and get the first runnings to boil as quickly as possible.

When making full bodied beer, make sure you stop the enzymatic activity as quickly as possible after starch conversion. Failing that, add .25-.5 lbs of Malto Dextrine powder to the finished beer.

 

[hammacks]

Lots of dark-roasted grains can add an astringency sometimes that makes a beer come across as dry....

When making full bodied beer, make sure you stop the enzymatic activity as quickly as possible after starch conversion.

Some excellent points here. Things I've had problems with in the past. Higher mash temps are also great suggestions, as well as ingredient considerations.

What I've found - you often have to tailor your brewing to what you want to improve. There are so many variables from one homebrewer to the next that someones great recipe may not work for you as is.

 

[blackstrat5]

For stopping the conversion as quickly as possible, is sparging at 170 the method to doing that? Also, as soon as possible after starch conversion, if I'm mashing for an hour should I be monitoring the mash by taking samples at regular intervals and performing a conversion test?

 

[gallagherman]

What yeast strains are you using? are you getting very good attenuation? If your beers finish really low and have fewer residual sugars, very dry beers can have a lighter mouthfeel.

 

[blackstrat5]

For the Brown Ale wyeast 1028 London Ale. 1.050 to 1.015

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

8.80 lb 2-Row
0.84 lb Caramel 40
0.42 Chocolate
0.42 Brown

I mashed at 152 for 1 hour. with a Fuggle addition 1.5 oz at 60 and a .5 oz at 10 minutes for 28 ibu. I used Irish Moss. The beer fermented at 68 with wyeast 1028 London Ale. I bottled at the same temp with 3.5 oz of priming sugar.

Do you recall what your FG was? That could say alot about what is happening.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

For the Brown Ale wyeast 1028 London Ale. 1.050 to 1.015

beat me to it

That looks pretty good to me though. I would agree with making sure your Therm & Hydro are calibrated and I think you probably need a little more carbonation in your beer. Try 4oz of priming sugar next time you bottle and see what that does for you.

 

[blackstrat5]

Psychic!!