Cant get crisp clean taste in lagers

[Davey_Boi]

Has anyone had the same experience where they struggle to get a clean taste in lagers but instead there is always a bit of "homebrew" taste. I would describe it as a tangy or slightly sweet flavour. Its not a crisp and bitter finish like you would get in beers like asahi, Stella Artois, carlsberg.

My recipes have generally been 80% pilsner and 20% light Munich malt. I've been mashing for 1 hr at 66 deg c / 151 f, sparging to about 1.012 (corrected to 20 deg c), boiling for 1 hr (have tried 90 mins also). IBU 30-35. Fermenting at 10 deg c / 50 f and have tried a decent secondary fermentation for 2 weeks. Also allowed the bottled beer to lager for months. I've also been pitching a good amount of yeast 3 packs of 11 g of w34/70 and in a separate Brew used saflager s-23. Also have tried adding 1.5 tsp of calcium chloride in the mash, for a 10 gal batch.

I've recently found my digital thermometer was reading 2 deg c too low (so may have been mashing at 68 / 155 instead but I'm not sure if this would cause it. Or maybe I should try 100% pilsner malt?

Any thoughts?

 

[coryforsenate]

Out of curiosity, what's the mineral profile of your water?

And what attenuation levels are you getting?

 

[Davey_Boi]

I dont know much about water profiles, but found a report from Melbourne Water in 2006, which had the following listed:

The concentrations of calcium and magnesium in Melbourne’s water supply are
normally in the order of 3mg/L to 6mg/L and 1mg/L to 2mg/L respectively. Total
hardness is in the order of 10mg/L to 26mg/L CaCO3.

Seems like a fairly soft water from what I could gather? The local HBS recommended the 1.5tsp of Calcium Chloride. I think this was to adjust the pH.

As for attenuation levels, they have been fairly consistent - SG 1.051 to FG 1.011 for most brews.

 

[Begin2Brew]

I've recently found my digital thermometer was reading 2 deg c too low (so may have been mashing at 68 / 155 instead but I'm not sure if this would cause it.

Any thoughts?

This could be your problem. I mashed my Pilsner at 149F so it will finish off clean and crisp, so far it is giving the taste i was looking for.

 

[Airborneguy]

I sort of agree with the above. What you are describing only seems to be excessive sweetness, which really isn't a problem at all. Mashing lower should help you dry it out a little more. Also, try bulk lagering instead of bottling and then lagering. That should make the flavor profile more consistent throughout the whole batch.

 

[Yooper]

I sort of agree with the above. What you are describing only seems to be excessive sweetness, which really isn't a problem at all. Mashing lower should help you dry it out a little more. Also, try bulk lagering instead of bottling and then lagering. That should make the flavor profile more consistent throughout the whole batch.

That, and I'd consider using a different "crisper" lager yeast. Maybe a pilsner yeast?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Have you checked the pH at all? That would have a lot to do with the impression of "crispness"

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I used Saflager 34/70 with my Oktoberfest/Marzen lager and fermented at 52F for nearly 4 weeks before racking to a secondary and cold lagering in the refrigerator for another 3-4 weeks before bottling. They bottle carbed nice at 70F for 2 weeks before I chilled and drank them. Very clean crisp and awfully good beer all around. I'm planning on brewing 2 more batches this weekend as well.

 

[markg388]

I've had the same problem a few times but not consistently, it happens batch to batch to me every once in a while. It's always the batches that remain a bit hazy throughout lagering, or the ones that have a bit of diacetyl that won't go away.

You should read the homebrew wiki on lager fermentation, especially where it compares the way the German breweries ferment lagers to homebrewers. Even though I still do the "accelerated" fermentation (how it's worded in that article), it helped me wrap my brain around what I *believe* to be my issue... the yeast going dormant and never finishing up that last tiny bit of attenuation that usually happens either during lagering or during the diacetyl rest.

For instance, when a typical German brewery is preparing a beer nearing the end of primary fermentation for lagering, they blend in a percentage of beer from a different batch with slow flocculating yeast to help ensure there is plenty of yeast awake and active during lagering. In the article it sounds like some German brewers ran into the same problem you and I have, and they go to great lengths to prevent it.

I can't do a very good job of explaining it or offering techniques/advice... but that homebrew wiki may at least shed some light, even if your problem is something totally different than what I'm guessing. It's pretty long and a bit tedious... but there's a lot of good stuff in there that I haven't seen written anywhere else. It's helped my lagers .

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Also, if you wanted to dry it out a bit, add a half pound of rice hulls or so to your brew. Just a thought, I've never done it so I can't say that it would work for certain. Just an idea.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Also, if you wanted to dry it out a bit, add a half pound of rice hulls or so to your brew. Just a thought, I've never done it so I can't say that it would work for certain. Just an idea.

I'm not sure what that would do for drying it out? Adding actual rice or rice syrup would lighten the body, but rice hulls wouldn't do anything to attenuation.



By tangy, are you saying that there is some esters?

Also, 20% Munich may be taking away from the crisp impression you are looking for if you are trying to copy a stella or similar beers. Not sure, but I think the munich is a little high for that.

 

[Davey_Boi]

Thanks for all the feedback.

I'm trying the lower mash temp of 65/149f in a brew now but will be a month before I can sample it.

As for esters, I guess it does have a slight fruity taste, even almost slightly vegetable but only trace levels in the aftertaste. Its still a drinkable beer but after a few it starts to get harder to drink and more noticeable. Since it seems like a sweetness it did occur to me that maybe my choice of malt and mash temp could be a factor so I will try a brew with the rice and pilsner malt only.

For pH levels, would this be measured in the mash or initial strike water? What level should be targeted for a crisp mouthfeel vs a "normal" mouthfeel?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

As for esters, I guess it does have a slight fruity taste, even almost slightly vegetable but only trace levels in the aftertaste

Those flavors would be fermentation related most likely. What do you use to hold fermentation temps? Did you rehydrate the dry yeast or sprinkle it on?

For pH levels, would this be measured in the mash or initial strike water? What level should be targeted for a crisp mouthfeel vs a "normal" mouthfeel?

The pH level for the finished beer would be what is important. But it drives off of the mash pH, so that is where you want to look at it and correct. pH would not really be a mouthfeel thing, but more of a flavor sharpness thing. I would work on the fermentation side and use the lower mash temp first, but you should be at least thinking about mash pH. Two things improved my beer more than anything- A fermentation fridge with the dual Ranco and a pH meter.

 

[Davey_Boi]

What do you use to hold fermentation temps? Did you rehydrate the dry yeast or sprinkle it on?

I've got a temp controlled fridge so normally set to around 54f. I have also been doing a secondary at 14c / 57f. I have previously been re-hydrating the yeast only and using 3 packs (11g each). As of my last brew (which is still in the primary), I have done a yeast starter which seems to be the better way to go from what I can gather.

Two things improved my beer more than anything- A fermentation fridge with the dual Ranco and a pH meter.

Any tips on the type of pH meter? I found some on eBay but not sure if a soil / pool meter is okay for brewing or should it be something a little more specialised?

 

[greenbirds]

The only thing I can think of is that your magnesium is quite low. Palmer states 10-20 ppm is crucial to yeast health, and your water report is listing 1-2 ppm, almost absent. Maybe try adding a touch of magnesium sulfate (epsom salt)? Wouldn't take much to get to 10 ppm...

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

There's plenty of Magnesium in the malt and sulphate doesn't work well with noble hops, so I'd be careful with Epsom.

 

[beeber]

What yeast are you using? I would use a higher attenuating yeast.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

What yeast are you using? I would use a higher attenuating yeast.

He said he's getting down to 1.012. That should be good enough. Maybe getting to 1.008-9 would cut the mouthfeel a little to help, but a lower mash temp would fix that.

Also, I have heard that the dry lager strains can be a little more sulphery than the liquid strains. I have never used the dry, so don't take my word as gold though.

I've got a temp controlled fridge so normally set to around 54f. I have also been doing a secondary at 14c / 57f. I have previously been re-hydrating the yeast only and using 3 packs (11g each). As of my last brew (which is still in the primary), I have done a yeast starter which seems to be the better way to go from what I can gather.

54F is a little high for a lager strain if you really want to have a clean flavor. I use the Jamil method and get it down to 44F before pitching my yeast and then let it free rise to 50F over the first 48 hours or so. I hold it at 50 until fermentation is complete(2 weeks or so) and then bump it up to 55 or so to help it clean up. My last two lagers both won golds at BJCP comps using this method.

As far as pH, I would worry about the fermentation more at this point because your pH is probably close enough to OK to worry about. The best info that I have read is the water sticky in the Brew Science forum from ajdelange. I do exactly what he says and just keep it simple and I brew gold medal beer. I have never had a pH be off using his method which is super simple. No spreadsheets or other equations. I heard on the last BN Sunday Session from Gordon Strong that he does the same thing. Just adds a little CaCL to RO water, and he's won the last three Ninkasi awards. When it comes to water and pH, you are better off just KISS. I would advise eventually getting a good pH meter though.

 

[pjj2ba]

My recipes have generally been 80% pilsner and 20% light Munich malt. I've been mashing for 1 hr at 66 deg c / 151 f, sparging to about 1.012 (corrected to 20 deg c), boiling for 1 hr (have tried 90 mins also). IBU 30-35. Fermenting at 10 deg c / 50 f and have tried a decent secondary fermentation for 2 weeks. Also allowed the bottled beer to lager for months. I've also been pitching a good amount of yeast 3 packs of 11 g of w34/70 and in a separate Brew used saflager s-23. Also have tried adding 1.5 tsp of calcium chloride in the mash, for a 10 gal batch.

I've recently found my digital thermometer was reading 2 deg c too low (so may have been mashing at 68 / 155 instead but I'm not sure if this would cause it. Or maybe I should try 100% pilsner malt?

Any thoughts?

Ditch the Munich! My std. lagers typically are at least 90% pils malt and a little wheat or maybe some aromatic or whatever strikes my fancy. If I'm doing a fest, bock or something malty, then I'll add munich and/or vienna.

If I'm doing an American lager with corn, those are typically 80 % pils, 20 % corn. I agree with others on using a yeast designed for pilsners to get that nice crispness. I make one change for my Amer. Lagers. With all of that corn I don't want it to be too crisp and have it end up with less taste, so here I switch it up and use a bock yeast to give a little more fullness.

If you can do a step mash you might want to try that. I like to do a step at 147 and then 158. If I want a malt forward lager I will do 20 min. at each step. If I want more crispness, then I do 30 min for the first step, and then 15 for the 2nd. Makes a big difference! You'll have to experiment with the times on your systems because everyone's is different.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

If you can do a step mash you might want to try that. I like to do a step at 147 and then 158. If I want a malt forward lager I will do 20 min. at each step. If I want more crispness, then I do 30 min for the first step, and then 15 for the 2nd. Makes a big difference! You'll have to experiment with the times on your systems because everyone's is different.

I like doing a mash like this (Hochkurz Infusion, mine is almost identical to what you posted) and it's amazing how much of a difference just 10-15 minutes at the beta rest makes.