canning left over wort

[ntbritton]

I had read an article about canning wort to use on yeast starters, and so i tried it and i canned up some. But in a slightly different way. I would like to get some feedback if anyone else has done this or knows of the pros and cons.

The article talked about using a pressure cooker. But i don't have one and have canned pickles for years via an oven method. So i took the following approach.

1. boil jars and lids
2. cool jars
3. add wort to jars
4. put in oven at 250 for two hours (picks was always one hour)
5. take out jars are sealed and checked following morning.

I am not sure if this is as safe as a method. Reading about the other method is designed to kill the bacteria that causes botcholizm. What do you guys think, have you done this before? If doing this what gravity would be ideal to hit?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

As long as you hit the temperature and time prescribed for killing spores you should be fine.

However, don't compare pickles with wort. When making pickles you are using vinegar to acidify the product in order to prevent things from growing. Wort pH is too high to prevent growth. I would use a similar method prescribed for canning green beans perhaps. That might work.


Also, pressure cookers are not very expensive and much quicker/easier to use. They are really handy especially if you have a garden and can stuff.

 

[adriedel]

I just soak everything in star san fill them up with wort and keep in fridge isnt that ok?

 

[Jon73]

I've done a batch of canned starter wort and we just did the boiling method of canning.

We mixed up a 1.040 batch of wort using DME, boiled it for 15 minutes to mix it all up good and to kill anything that needed killing then added it to the canning jars (I did pints and quarts), placed them in the water bath, boiled for 20 minutes, removed and waited for the lids to seat. Worked great.

I would add that if you aren't familiar with water bath canning, read up on it because I gave a poor description of the actual method. I also do not think I really needed to boil it for 20 minutes since I already boiled it for 15 minutes, but the paranoia takes over occasionally.
As for getting to the desired 1.040, I used the 100 grams to 1 liter ratio and added a little extra water to account for the slight amount of evaporation during the 15 minute boil.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

No. They need to be absolutely sterile. That is a jar of wonderful sugar that something nasty will for sure grow in.

Clostridium Botulinum is not something to mess with--

Botulin toxin produced by C. botulinum is often believed to be a potential bioweapon as it is so potent that it takes about 75 nanograms to kill a person (LD50 of 1 ng/kg,[25] assuming an average person weighs ~75 kg); 1 kilogram of it would be enough to kill the entire human population. For comparative purposes, a quarter of a typical grain of sand's weight (350 ng) of botulinum toxin would constitute a lethal dose for humans.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I've done a batch of canned starter wort and we just did the boiling method of canning.

We mixed up a 1.040 batch of wort using DME, boiled it for 15 minutes to mix it all up good and to kill anything that needed killing then added it to the canning jars (I did pints and quarts), placed them in the water bath, boiled for 20 minutes, removed and waited for the lids to seat. Worked great.

I would add that if you aren't familiar with water bath canning, read up on it because I gave a poor description of the actual method. I also do not think I really needed to boil it for 20 minutes since I already boiled it for 15 minutes, but the paranoia takes over occasionally.
As for getting to the desired 1.040, I used the 100 grams to 1 liter ratio and added a little extra water to account for the slight amount of evaporation during the 15 minute boil.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

People can possibly kill themselves and others by doing this! Starter wort is a culture medium. It contains no alcohol, and lacks sufficiently low pH to stay safe for humans. DO NOT just use the boil method for canning. This method is for low pH canning where botulism can not grow.

 

[sloanb27]

I just soak everything in star san fill them up with wort and keep in fridge isnt that ok?

Yeah, it is 'okay'. what you should do is sterilize, not sanitize though. Set your oven to about 250F, and put your jars (with hot wort) in there for about an hour. Hot wort does not have any dissolved oxygen in it...unlike cold wort. There are many microbes that would love to get their cytoplasm [hands] all over sweet wort that has oxygen in it.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

From BYO magazine--

Botulism Warning

In home food preservation, foods are divided into “high-acid” foods, with a pH below 4.6, and “low-acid” foods, with a pH above 4.6. High-acid foods can be safely canned using the boiling water method. It is recommended that low acid foods be canned in a pressure cooker, where the increased pressure means that water boils at 240 °F (116 °C) or higher. The pH of boiled, unfermented wort is around 5.0–5.2, making it a low-acid liquid.

The reason for the high-acid/low-acid distinction is that spores of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum can survive in low-acid foods, even if they have been heated to 212 °F (100 °C). Clostridium botulinum produces 7 different classes of botulinum toxin, labeled A through G, and all are powerful neurotoxins. Botulinum type A, the most toxic, is 15,000 times more potent than VX nerve gas.

Botulinum toxins stop impulses in the nervous system from triggering muscular contractions. Symptoms of botulism usually arise 24–36 hours after exposure to the toxin and include dry mouth, weakness, double vision, vomiting, depressed breathing and a progressively intensifying paralysis leading to death.

The presence of Clostridium spores in raw honey is why doctors recommend not feeding it to infants or small children.

Although spores of the bacteria are found almost everywhere, cases of botulism are actually relatively rare. Most years, around 110 cases are reported in the US, with most occurring in infants or small children that have eaten honey or other affected foods. On average, less than 30 cases per year result from improper home canning.

In fermented wort (i.e. beer), the alcohol content, low pH (4.0–4.4) and anti-bacterial components in hops prevent C. botulinum from surviving. In preserved, unfermented, lightly-hopped wort, it is possible for the bacteria to grow. Although the bacteria will die if the wort is fermented, any toxins produced by the bacteria will not be neutralized.

To minimize the possibility of botulinum poisoning, can your starter wort using a pressure cooker or add acid — such as phosphoric or lactic acid — to your starter wort such that its pH is 4.6 or below if you are using the boiling water method. (High hopping levels alone are likely not enough.)

The boiling water method is presented here because it has been used successfully for many years, but it does allow for the possibility of botulinum poisoning. Although the probability of this is low, the consequences can be severe if it does occur.

 

[austinb]

Putting them in the oven at 250 does not mean they got to 250. You need a certain amount of pressure for the wort to get to 250. Without the pressure excess heat will be expelled and it will never get any higher than 212 degrees. So if you like being alive I would not recommend using canned wort unless it has been pressure canned at the appropriate pressure for an appropriate amount of time to avoid botulism poisoning. If you water bath canned the wort and the. Refrigerated it then it may be ok for at least a few months but make sure your fridge is below 38 degrees F.

 

[Jon73]

I see your point in being cautious with water bath canning. Do you know how long it needs to cook under pressure? We have a huge pressure cooker, water bath was just simpler. Obviously I didn't die from the water bath, but it's always good to have as much information as possible. I appreciate the knowledge.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Putting them in the oven at 250 does not mean they got to 250. You need a certain amount of pressure for the wort to get to 250. Without the pressure excess heat will be expelled and it will never get any higher than 212 degrees.

Good point.

I see your point in being cautious with water bath canning. Do you know how long it needs to cook under pressure? We have a huge pressure cooker, water bath was just simpler. Obviously I didn't die from the water bath, but it's always good to have as much information as possible. I appreciate the knowledge.

Just off the top of my head I believe it is 250F for 15 minutes. IIRC 250F is 15 psi. It has been a couple years since I have canned wort, but I think I cooked it for 30 minutes at 15 psi.

The big thing is the spores can outlast a regular 212F boil no problem. Then they get into the anaerobic environment of the can/jar and can grow and create the toxin.

And by the way, Botulinum is the most deadly toxin known to man. Not something I would mess with at all.

 

[ntbritton]

Thats pretty much what i figured was the case, but wanted to see what everyone else knew as well. Thanks guys, that was a huge help to know i am right to dump what i have and move the pressure method.

 

[bja]

I just soak everything in star san fill them up with wort and keep in fridge isnt that ok?

Yeah, that's what I do. Just make sure you keep it in the fridge and use it within a couple weeks. If it's going to be longer, use plastic containers and freeze it.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Yeah, that's what I do. Just make sure you keep it in the fridge and use it within a couple weeks. If it's going to be longer, use plastic containers and freeze it.

Yeah, freezing would work also if you didn't want to buy a pressure cooker.

 

[nvrlateinz28]

crap crap crap.

How did I not know about this? I am super paranoid about sanitation.

Ok so from now on we will pressure can our wort instead of water bath canning it.

So here is the problem. The last 4 or five beers we have made were made using canned starter wort that was made in a water bath canner.

I have three kegs of beers left in the kegerator and one helles lager in active primary fermentation right now.


The three beers in the kegs have been drank by myself and a few friends as recently as last weekend with no ill effects.

So my first question is if there were any toxins in those three beers we would have noticed by now already right?

Although the bacteria will die if the wort is fermented, any toxins produced by the bacteria will not be neutralized.

Second questions is about the helles lager. Before we drink the lager is there any way to test and see if there is any toxins in it? Would we be able to taste the toxins? Smell them?

The last 5 beers were made with this canne dstarter wort and have been fine.

Am I worrying too much?


P.S. The starter wort was stepped up in a fermentation fridge where the temp never got above 50 for 1 week. Might that have been enough time and temperature to kill any possible spores?

 

[bja]

The last 5 beers were made with this canne dstarter wort and have been fine.

Am I worrying too much?

Yes, way too much.

 

[nvrlateinz28]

Yes, way too much.

Thanks

 

[jeffjm]

Just off the top of my head I believe it is 250F for 15 minutes. IIRC 250F is 15 psi. It has been a couple years since I have canned wort, but I think I cooked it for 30 minutes at 15 psi.

Correct. This is what was specified for low acid foods in the directions to my pressure cooker.

For what it's worth, I did a water bath for years until I learned better. I'm still alive but decided not to take any more chances.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Correct. This is what was specified for low acid foods in the directions to my pressure cooker.

For what it's worth, I did a water bath for years until I learned better. I'm still alive but decided not to take any more chances.

Yeah, saving a few bucks is not worth risking your life over, even if the chances are minute.

 

[austinb]

crap crap crap.

How did I not know about this? I am super paranoid about sanitation.

Ok so from now on we will pressure can our wort instead of water bath canning it.

So here is the problem. The last 4 or five beers we have made were made using canned starter wort that was made in a water bath canner.

I have three kegs of beers left in the kegerator and one helles lager in active primary fermentation right now.

The three beers in the kegs have been drank by myself and a few friends as recently as last weekend with no ill effects.

So my first question is if there were any toxins in those three beers we would have noticed by now already right?

Second questions is about the helles lager. Before we drink the lager is there any way to test and see if there is any toxins in it? Would we be able to taste the toxins? Smell them?

The last 5 beers were made with this canne dstarter wort and have been fine.

Am I worrying too much?

P.S. The starter wort was stepped up in a fermentation fridge where the temp never got above 50 for 1 week. Might that have been enough time and temperature to kill any possible spores?

It can take up to 10 days for symptoms to appear (but usually only 18-36 hours) if it has been more than 10 days since you first tried the beer you are probably fine. It is not be bacteria itself but a toxin it produces that is the issue. Once there is just a little alcohol in the beer the bacteria will die and no more toxins will be produced so if it was infected you would only be consuming the toxins that were in the starter wort, no more will be produced in the beer. Therefore if you already had your initial pour more than 10 days ago and you feel fine (you would know something was wrong) then that beer is probably safe to drink but I don't think anyone would blame you for the wasted beer if you dumped it.

Botulism toxin is tasteless and odorless so I would probably dump the helles lager, better safe than sorry...or dead. I would also dump any remaining canned starter wort because once the toxin is formed you can't boil it off.

The bacteria can create toxins down to about 38 degrees so 50 degrees is not low enough but they also need an anaerobic environment (lack of oxygen) so an aerated starter wort will not produce the toxin and by the time co2 replaces all the oxygen it is too alcoholic for the bacteria to grow. In a sealed mason jar sitting on the shelf un-refrigerated with a lack of oxygen it is the perfect environment for the toxin to grow.

Botulism is very rare so you are probably worrying about it too much if you have no symptoms yet but again just to be extra cautious I would dump the beer you haven't tried and any remaining jars and also consider dumping the other beers even though they are probably fine since you already drank them and you are still alive.

 

[nvrlateinz28]

It can take up to 10 days for symptoms to appear (but usually only 18-36 hours) if it has been more than 10 days since you first tried the beer you are probably fine. It is not be bacteria itself but a toxin it produces that is the issue. Once there is just a little alcohol in the beer the bacteria will die and no more toxins will be produced so if it was infected you would only be consuming the toxins that were in the starter wort, no more will be produced in the beer. Therefore if you already had your initial pour more than 10 days ago and you feel fine (you would know something was wrong) then that beer is probably safe to drink but I don't think anyone would blame you for the wasted beer if you dumped it.

Botulism toxin is tasteless and odorless so I would probably dump the helles lager, better safe than sorry...or dead. I would also dump any remaining canned starter wort because once the toxin is formed you can't boil it off.

The bacteria can create toxins down to about 38 degrees so 50 degrees is not low enough but they also need an anaerobic environment (lack of oxygen) so an aerated starter wort will not produce the toxin and by the time co2 replaces all the oxygen it is too alcoholic for the bacteria to grow. In a sealed mason jar sitting on the shelf un-refrigerated with a lack of oxygen it is the perfect environment for the toxin to grow.

Botulism is very rare so you are probably worrying about it too much if you have no symptoms yet but again just to be extra cautious I would dump the beer you haven't tried and any remaining jars and also consider dumping the other beers even though they are probably fine since you already drank them and you are still alive.

Thanks for the info

 

[Warthaug]

Yeah, it is 'okay'. what you should do is sterilize, not sanitize though. Set your oven to about 250F, and put your jars (with hot wort) in there for about an hour. Hot wort does not have any dissolved oxygen in it...unlike cold wort. There are many microbes that would love to get their cytoplasm [hands] all over sweet wort that has oxygen in it.

Clostridium botulinum, the bacteria which causes botulism, is an obligate anaerobe - meaning not only does it grow fine without oxygen, but oxygen is actually toxic to it. Boiled wort kept in an unsanitized jar is about as perfect a home for it as you could create. The toxin it creates is either the most toxic thing humans know of, or is the second-most toxic thing we know of (tied with plutonium, FWIW). You do not want to eat that stuff. . .although MD's will inject it into your face to get rid of wrinkles. :cross:

If you can do a proper job of canning, than canning is a perfectly good way to store wort. The safest way is:
1) Boil the wort and jars separately, to sanitize them,
2) Put the hot wort into the hot jars, lid them, and transfer to a canning vessel or pressure cooker (filled with pre-heated/near-boiling water).
3) Boil the jars; I would recommend following the USDA guidlines for pitted fruits for boil times; generally 20-30min, depending on the size of the jar.

The goal is to kill everything in the wort/jars, and then to keep everything hot for the duration of the canning process in order to avoid re-innoculation.

Another options, one that is a little less work, is simply to freeze the leftover wort. You'll need to re-boil it before you use it, but its simple & quick. Assuming you have the deepfreeze space for it...

Bryan

 

[Jeepaholic]

I have been using the boil method for awhile now. I mash my grains at 148 for 2 hours boil the wort for 15 minutes adding my nutrient, energizer and pour the boiling wort into the clean quart jars. Once the kettle is empty I put the jars back in fill it with water to the top of the jars and boil them another 15 minutes. I then store them in my garage fridge at 34℉.

Is this a safe method? I would think at 34℉ they would have a hard time growing. Also it doesn't last long, I use it within a month.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I have been using the boil method for awhile now. I mash my grains at 148 for 2 hours boil the wort for 15 minutes adding my nutrient, energizer and pour the boiling wort into the clean quart jars. Once the kettle is empty I put the jars back in fill it with water to the top of the jars and boil them another 15 minutes. I then store them in my garage fridge at 34℉.

Is this a safe method? I would think at 34℉ they would have a hard time growing. Also it doesn't last long, I use it within a month.

That is probably fine 999 times out of 1000. But that one time.... I wouldn't want to take that risk. Botulism is serious business. Kind of like playing Russian Roulette.

 

[austinb]

I have been using the boil method for awhile now. I mash my grains at 148 for 2 hours boil the wort for 15 minutes adding my nutrient, energizer and pour the boiling wort into the clean quart jars. Once the kettle is empty I put the jars back in fill it with water to the top of the jars and boil them another 15 minutes. I then store them in my garage fridge at 34℉.

Is this a safe method? I would think at 34℉ they would have a hard time growing. Also it doesn't last long, I use it within a month.

As long as it is under 38 degrees the bacteria cannot grow and create the toxin so your jars should be fine in the 34 degree fridge. Water bath canning and then refrigerating sounds like a pretty good way to inhibit bacterias without using a pressure cooker. I may still try and only make enough that you can use it all within about 6 months or so. Now if you went on vacation for a couple weeks only to come back and find that your fridge had died on you or if you found out some point that your fridge wasn't working as well anymore and it was say 42 degrees then I would dump them just to play it safe.

 

[austinb]

Clostridium botulinum, the bacteria which causes botulism, is an obligate anaerobe - meaning not only does it grow fine without oxygen, but oxygen is actually toxic to it. Boiled wort kept in an unsanitized jar is about as perfect a home for it as you could create. The toxin it creates is either the most toxic thing humans know of, or is the second-most toxic thing we know of (tied with plutonium, FWIW). You do not want to eat that stuff. . .although MD's will inject it into your face to get rid of wrinkles. :cross:

If you can do a proper job of canning, than canning is a perfectly good way to store wort. The safest way is:
1) Boil the wort and jars separately, to sanitize them,
2) Put the hot wort into the hot jars, lid them, and transfer to a canning vessel or pressure cooker (filled with pre-heated/near-boiling water).
3) Boil the jars; I would recommend following the USDA guidlines for pitted fruits for boil times; generally 20-30min, depending on the size of the jar.

The goal is to kill everything in the wort/jars, and then to keep everything hot for the duration of the canning process in order to avoid re-innoculation.

Another options, one that is a little less work, is simply to freeze the leftover wort. You'll need to re-boil it before you use it, but its simple & quick. Assuming you have the deepfreeze space for it...

Bryan

Some good info but in step 2 you mention putting the jars in a canning vessel or pressure cooker. By "canning vessel" I hope you don't mean big pot for water bath canning because that is not a safe way to can wort, it is basically a recipe for botulism. Wort pH is too high to safely water bath can and a pressure canner that can reach 15psi is required to reach the 250 degrees necessary to kill Clostridium botulinum.

 

[Warthaug]

As long as it is under 38 degrees the bacteria cannot grow and create the toxin

This is incorrect. The B, E and F strains of Clostridium botulinum can grow and produce toxin at refrigeration temperatures.

austinb: around here we call pressure-canners "canners". So yes, I mean one with pressure.

Bryan

 

[austinb]

This is incorrect. The B, E and F strains of Clostridium botulinum can grow and produce toxin at refrigeration temperatures.

Well you obviously know more about it than me...I was just stating what I had read on some web page but seeing as I have a science related background (wildlife science) I should know better than just trusting some random website and should seek the information from a peer reviewed source.

So that answers one more question that was brought up several times in this thread that its not totally safe to water bath can it and then refrigerate it. So the only safe methods of preserving wort for starters is to use a pressure canner at 15 psi (probably 30 minutes just to play it safe, even though some sites say as little as 15 mins) or to freeze it.

 

[Tombstone0]

Botulism toxin is tasteless and odorless so I would probably dump the helles lager, better safe than sorry...or dead. I would also dump any remaining canned starter wort because once the toxin is formed you can't boil it off.

This part isn't true, at least not according to the CDC:

"Because botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety."

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/botulism/clinicians/control.asp

 

[austinb]

This part isn't true, at least not according to the CDC:

"Because botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety."

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/botulism/clinicians/control.asp

Ok I guess maybe you could just reboil your water bath canned wort. I still wouldn't risk it. For the guy with the helles lager I would still dump it because if he boils it to try and get rid of the toxin he is going to end up with non-alcoholic beer.

 

[nvrlateinz28]

Ok I guess maybe you could just reboil your water bath canned wort. I still wouldn't risk it. For the guy with the helles lager I would still dump it because if he boils it to try and get rid of the toxin he is going to end up with non-alcoholic beer.

Im the one with the helles.

My beer in the kegerator has been drank by bunch of people with no ill effects in the last few months. If there was a problem with them I would have known about it by now.

As for my Helles lager....My brewing partner who does the wort canning with a water bath canner made this batch of starter wort specifically for this Lager. He made it on a Sunday night and gave it to me monday morning. I started the starter on Monday evening and added a second quart wednesday night and then a final quart friday night because we were brewing this beer on saturday.

Even with the anerobic environment I doubt botullism could grow in a wort jar in less than a week. (the first quart was used in less than 24 hours) I smelled each jar as i open it and there was no smell. The lids were tight and hard to pry off. Even if some spores did grow in that third quart jar that had been made on Sunday and used on Friday I doubt that the spore could have grown and produced enough toxin to create harm in 5 and a half days.


I could be wrong and hopefully no one here will come back with facts and figures about how spores can grow in 24 hours enough to kill you

 

[austinb]

Oh I was under the assumption that the wort for the helles lager was older than that...it is probably fine if it was only a few days old. I could be wrong but I read that it takes several weeks or more or the toxin to form. From now on though pressure can your wort! Just because you didn't get it this time doesn't mean you won't next time.

 

[nvrlateinz28]

From now on though pressure can your wort! Just because you didn't get it this time doesn't mean you won't next time.

Definitely. I talked to my brewing buddy and told him no more water bath canning wort. I'm gonna buy a big presure canner.

Speaking of buying a pressure canner......does anyone know of a good place to get them and what are some good brand names?(I.E. not cheap chinese stuff that will fall apart)

 

[adriedel]

I freeze my wort then boil when useing. Is that ok?

 

[mikescooling]

Yes glad you asked, All American pressure canners are made in WI, and IMHO they are the best you can buy. Don't get me wrong the cheaper ones like the presto also work great. I love my pressure canner, I use to cann my garden, chili, wort, stew meat, and most important is use it for freezing yeast!!! I have saved hundreds of dollars in yeast.

 

[austinb]

All Americans are definitely the best but cost about twice as much as a presto. Fagor and presto are also decent pressure canners. Check on Craigslist and at thrift stores and garage sales and you may be able to find a used one for relatively cheap but you will probably want to check the gasket. The old ones should work just fine too as long as you can still find a gasket for them...there haven't been a ton of advances in home pressure canner technology over the years.

 

[mikescooling]

I use a pressure cooker from presto at least 2-3 times a week to make soup, stew or chili. That presto pressure cooker has been heavily used for years with no problems. They really do make a good pressure cooker or pressure canner. They have good customer service too.