Cane & Ebel Clone help?

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dummkauf

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Since I've recently become a HUGE fan of Two Brothers Cane and Ebel, I have decided it's time to brew up a batch, but can't find much in the way of clones. Doing some googling I found this: http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?p=552036&sid=fe176c6d5cf38b37cc68eeb9bcf046ac

Which lists info that apparently came from one of the two brothers :D

I then started punching numbers into BeerSmith and this is what I've come up with and I would appreciate any advice, or recipes if anyone has successfully cloned this one already. I haven't gotten to the mash yet, but the link recommends mashing in the mid 150's, and I was thinking of just going for an even 155(that's as "mid" as it gets :D )

Recipe: Cane & Ebel Clone
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.072 SG
Estimated Color: 17.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 66.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM) Grain 61.37 %
2.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 12.27 %
1.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.67 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.07 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3.07 %
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.53 %
0.05 lb Crystal Rye (90.0 SRM) Grain 0.28 %
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (75 min) Hops 17.6 IBU
0.50 oz Summit [18.50 %] (75 min) Hops 23.2 IBU
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (55 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (50 min) Hops 8.0 IBU
0.25 oz Summit [18.50 %] (45 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
0.75 lb Palm Sugar (3.0 SRM) Sugar 4.60 %



Thoughts?
 
also, does anyone know what yeast strain Two Bros are using? or if it is a house strain, any suggestions for a good substitute?
 
found that one already, that's actually what I used as a reference to put the above recipe together, but I am looking for input from anyone who may have tried cloning it as well as anyone who might know if they use a publicly available yeast strain?
 
I have always wanted to clone this from that same information on Northern Brewer, but haven't done it yet.

I believe your crystal rye may be off. The description called for 3%, not 0.3%.

Are you going to get "thai" palm sugar? Who is your source?
 
Thanks for pointing that out, I think that should've been 0.5 and not 0.05. Just ran a quick Excel sheet since I'm at work and this looks a bit closer to the percentages from NB

Lbs Malt Percentage
10 Pilsner 69%
1.75 Rye malt 12%
1.15 10L 8%
0.5 Melanoiden 3%
0.5 Munich 3%
0.1 black patent 1%
0.5 Crystal Rye 3%

Total Lbs 14.5


As far as the Thai Palm sugar, was just going to check one of the Asian markets in the Minneapolis area for it, otherwise you can order it online: [ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=thai%20palm%20sugar&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=shop:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wf&biw=1055&bih=656[/ame]

It's probably going to be about 4 or 5 weeks before I'll have time to brew another batch so this will be on hold for a bit anyway, I think I might just try emailing them about the yeast strain since they seemed very friendly at the brewery and the NB response looks promising.
 
Ok, I think I am going to try this one either this coming weekend or next. I got the following response back from Two Brothers after emailing them asking about the recipe and the yeast :)



The recipe probably did come from us. We share our recipes with homebrewers all the time. Here is a little more refined recipe you can use as well. Good luck.

9.5 lbs. Pilsner
1.5 lbs. Rye
1 lb. Crystal 10L
.5 lb. Munich
.5 lb. Melanoiden (or Aromatic)
.5 lb. Rye Crystal
2 oz. Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett)

Strike 168
Mash 154 for 60 minutes
75% Efficiency
1.072 Target OG

Collect 7 Gallons Wort
75 Minute Boil

75 Minutes 1 lb. Thai Palm Sugar
60 Minutes .5 oz Columbus and .05 oz Summit (or Warrior)
30 Minutes .5 oz Summit (or Warrior)
25 Minutes .5 oz Columbus
20 Minutes .5 oz Simcoe
Dry 2.0 oz Simcoe

Final volume 5 gallons

Wyeast 1332 (Northwest Ale) OR White Labs WLP005 (British Ale)

1.022 Target FG
6.7% ABV
63 IBU


Cheers,

Two Brothers Brewing Company
30w315 Calumet Ave.
Warrenville, IL 60555
 
WOW! Way to go... when I emailed them, I never got any reply at all.

My wife loves this beer. I have a local source for the Palm sugar(Asian Market). All I need to do is order, or make, the Rye Crystal malt. I'm putting this beer on my list.

THANKS for posting the reply email.:mug:
 
saltydawg said:
WOW! Way to go... when I emailed them, I never got any reply at all.

My wife loves this beer. I have a local source for the Palm sugar(Asian Market). All I need to do is order, or make, the Rye Crystal malt. I'm putting this beer on my list.

THANKS for posting the reply email.:mug:
Click to expand...

NP!!! Let me know how it turns out.
 
I brewed 10g this beer and it is GREAT! Hit my numbers spot on. Palm sugar from an Asian market per recipe. The only change i did make was to slightly shift the late hop additions even a little later to reduce IBU's from the recipe. (the recipe came in high on the IBU's according to BeerSmith :confused:) The 1332 yeast and the rye adds a little tartness and spicieness to the full bodied FG of 1.022.
BTW: Brewed a 5g starter beer, a CAP, with the 1332. This beer also turned out great.

Thanks again, dummkauf for sharing this excellent recipe!

:mug:
:mug:
:mug:
 
saltydawg said:
I brewed 10g this beer and it is GREAT! Hit my numbers spot on. Palm sugar from an Asian market per recipe. The only change i did make was to slightly shift the late hop additions even a little later to reduce IBU's from the recipe. (the recipe came in high on the IBU's according to BeerSmith :confused:) The 1332 yeast and the rye adds a little tartness and spicieness to the full bodied FG of 1.022.
BTW: Brewed a 5g starter beer, a CAP, with the 1332. This beer also turned out great.

Thanks again, dummkauf for sharing this excellent recipe!

:mug:
:mug:
:mug:
Click to expand...

You are welcome and I am glad to hear it!!! I've been extremely busy lately and I still haven't had a chance to brew it, however I just emptied both my kegs I had on tap so I am aiming to give this a shot this coming weekend. **Fingers crossed nothing new pops up that would interfere with my brew weekend**

But on the plus side, my local liquor store has been stocking the actual brew lately, so I have put back a few 6'ers of the actual 2 bros brew that has tided me over :D
 
I hope you get a chance to brew it soon. Keep us posted how your batch turns out and if you tweaked the recipe at all.
 
This is mashing as I type :D

This is my first go at this one so I am following the recipe sent from 2 Bros almost exactly as was written. The only thing I am planning on changing is to use 2.5oz of Simcoe to dry hop instead of the recommended 2oz. I LOVE simcoe, and since I would have had an extra .5oz's left over based on the original recipe, I figured it wouldn't hurt to toss a little more in the secondary with it :D(hops were bought in 1oz bags which is why I have the extra .5oz's).
 
Well only time will tell now. I ran out of propane with 6 min to go, and the burner started dwindling in the last 20 min or so I didn't have that great of a boil for the last 20 minutes of this one which I am going to blame my low OG(1.052) on the fact that I should have boiled off a lot more water, but that's still not too bad. BeerSmith predicted 1.076OG and 1.022FG, so if this one ferments out below the 1.022 mark I should still be good. Though it should still be tasty either way, I've messed up a recipe way worse in the past without ruining a batch(knock on wood).

One of these days I'm going to learn my lesson and get a 2nd propane tank :(

Will let you know how it turns out.
 
dummkauf said:
Well only time will tell now. I ran out of propane with 6 min to go, and the burner started dwindling in the last 20 min or so I didn't have that great of a boil for the last 20 minutes of this one which I am going to blame my low OG(1.052) on the fact that I should have boiled off a lot more water, but that's still not too bad. BeerSmith predicted 1.076OG and 1.022FG, so if this one ferments out below the 1.022 mark I should still be good. Though it should still be tasty either way, I've messed up a recipe way worse in the past without ruining a batch(knock on wood).

One of these days I'm going to learn my lesson and get a 2nd propane tank :(

Will let you know how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Bummer on the propane situation. I'm up to 3 tanks plus 1 in the BBQ Grill! Part of it is I'm lazy about getting them refilled, so it's a nice luxury to have an extra or two. The recipe is a solid hit with my wife, she absolutely loves it. Although, it did NOT place in a local competition recently. Possibly too dark for style? I entered it as an American IPA and listed rye as a special ingredient.

Good luck with yours, and thanks for the update. I'm sure your gonna love it.
 
Well hydro sample tonight was TASTY!!! Will rack to secondary on top of a pile O' hops and will hopefully have this kegged up in the next couple weeks :D Can't wait to try it after dry hopping.
 
Anyone else make this yet?

I'm fermenting another batch of my CAP, for one it's good, for another I need a big pitch of 1332 for another batch of the Cane & Ebel clone! I'm going to go closer to the original hop schedule this time, only adjusting hop amounts to hit 63IBU's.
 
I did a PM version of the recipe (Beersmith conversion of the one halfway down page 1) and I thought it was pretty close to the real deal. I had to tweak the hop schedule to get the IBU's right. I haven't had a chance to do a head to head, but I'm pleased with the outcome. Definately will be another batch soon.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 lb Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 40.06 %
2.13 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 21.36 %
1.35 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 13.56 %
0.90 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 9.01 %
0.45 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.50 %
0.32 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 %
0.32 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 %
0.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 12.0 IBU
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (25 min) Hops 16.7 IBU
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (25 min) Hops 7.8 IBU
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (20 min) Hops 12.6 IBU
0.50 lb Thai Palm Sugar (8.0 SRM) Sugar 5.01 %
1 Pkgs British Ale (Wyeast Labs #1098) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.068 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.064 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.68 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.79 %
Bitterness: 60.2 IBU
Calories: 286 cal/pint <-- holy balls! no wonder I'm getting fat!
 
I came across some "Jaggery Palm Sugar" at the grocery store. It looks like a candle but doesnt specifically say Thai. Does this seem like the right stuff?
 
starman said:
I came across some "Jaggery Palm Sugar" at the grocery store. It looks like a candle but doesnt specifically say Thai. Does this seem like the right stuff?
Click to expand...

Sounds right to me....this is what I'm planning on using this weekend
IMG_20111230_193806.jpg
 
Oh, and it will dissolve in hot water pretty quickly, but I usually smash it into smaller chunks to weigh it out and add it(my meat tenderizer works very well for the smashing)
 
Loved this beer when I visited the brewery last year. Planning to try this with Indian date palm jaggery instead of the Thai (just because I have it).

However, I do not have the right hops. I am thinking of substituting Summit and Columbus with Cascade and Chinook. But what can you use for Simcoe? Any suggestions?

Thanks!
 
MadHopper said:
Loved this beer when I visited the brewery last year. Planning to try this with Indian date palm jaggery instead of the Thai (just because I have it).

However, I do not have the right hops. I am thinking of substituting Summit and Columbus with Cascade and Chinook. But what can you use for Simcoe? Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well as far as substitutions those sound about right, I've never made this with different hops so I can't comment on those. As far as the Simcoe substitute goes, the last IPA I brewed that called for Simcoe, but couldn't get any, the guy at Midwest recommended Citra. That beer was very good with the Citra, but I prefer the Simcoe.

Maybe someone else might have other suggestions for a Simcoe substitute??
 
The Hop Union handbook suggests Magnum or Summit. A different forum's thread suggested a blend of the two but to limit the Summit % due to 'onion' tones. Another suggestion was 70/30 Chinook / Citra. The feedback wasn't very encouraging.

Rather than trying to replicate, I might just go with Columbus (Ala Denny's Wry Smile) or even Cascade.

The growler of C&E I'm polishing off has such a great aroma, too. Darn Simcoe producers.
 
Thanks for the input. Seems like it is better that I source some Simcoe rather than trying to do a unsatisfactory substitute.
 
Simcoe pellets are out of stock online at Northern, Midwest, & Austin. My LHBS was out for ages so when I went to 2Bros Tap Room for crystal rye and even they didnt have any, it seemed like substitution time.

Went to the LHBS today for the alternates and behold... 1oz. Hop Union pouches of Unhoptanium Simcoe! Good hunting.
 
I've been playing around with BeerSmith working toward recreating the fabled Imperial C&E.

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/689/40401

Additional info from the brewer:
"Imperial Cane & Ebel was the first batch in our new brewhouse when we moved in late '07. The new system was much more efficient, it raised the ABV from 7% to 11% and created a massive version of our current Cane & Ebel. Enjoy this now for you will probably never see or taste this beer again."
Click to expand...

Here's a draft... bumping my mash efficiency down due to high SG to hit 10% ABV. In general I scaled things up (with some rounding) since it reads like this beer was a happy accident. I'm wondering about the 30-20 min flavor hop additions, since those are pretty much the same quantities as regular C&E.

Est Original Gravity: 1.100
SG Est Final Gravity: 1.023
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.3 %
Bitterness: 116.8 IBUs
Est Color: 14.8 SRM
Total Grain Weight: 24 lbs 2.1 oz

11.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)
1 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)
13 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
4 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)
1 lb 12 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
1 lb 4 oz Rye Malt - Crystal (4.7 SRM)
1 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
12 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM)
2 oz Black Malt - Thomas Fawcett (500.0 SRM)
1oz Summit [17.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min
.5oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min
.5oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min
1 lb 4 oz Thai Palm Sugar (10.0 SRM)
.5 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min
.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min
.5 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min
Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins)Fining

British Ale (White Labs #WLP005) [35.49 ml]Yeast

2 oz. Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days

I've got a batch of regular C&E going now so theres an opportunity to harvest/overpitch WLP005, but it worries me that those can get the job done. White justs lists alcohol tolerance as 'medium'

Thoughts?
 
Why the change in the hop schedule?

Based on the quote from 2 Bros, they brewed this as normal but got a much higher efficiency than expected, thus the imperial C&E, which would imply that they used the standard hop schedule. So to recreate this you would have 1 of 2 options:

1.) Increase the efficiency of your brew rig to bump the ABV up.
2.) Increase the base malts to hit the new target ABV.

You appear to have increased both the hops and the malts, which while I'm sure it will still be a tasty brew, I'm not sure if that would be the best approach if you are trying to recreate 2 Brothers mistake that created the Imperial C&E.

That said, keep me posted as I'm curious how your version turns out. :mug:
 
I guess I was nosing around on probrewer and ran across some discussions on scaling pilot batches and how hop utilization varies with equipment. It looks like a wild card as the pros are dialing in new gear.
"As an example, the author has found that a value of 3.4 is appropriate in his brewery when scaling a 10 gallon recipe to a batch of 17 barrels. However, this may be completely different on your system, and we urge you experiment with a known recipe and "tweak" this number until the IBU values reflect accurate, known values."
Click to expand...
Since 2B overshot the ABV, I figure the alpha might have been higher too.

Also, guessing this one might need to condition longer I'd like to frontload to offset some of the decay. Ive never done a RIIPA, so more research and feedback is certainly needed before brew day.

Thanks!
 
I am going to brew this beer this week I am going to change up the hops tho since ZI can not get simcoe I am going to use Falconers flight

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: #69 Hop Rod Toad
Brewer: Drew Morgan
Asst Brewer:
Style: Specialty Beer
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.074 SG
Estimated Color: 14.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 61.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 66.6 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 3 9.5 %
8.3 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.3 %
8.3 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.3 %
2.2 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 8 0.9 %
8.3 oz Crystal Rye Malt (49.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.3 %
1 lbs 0.7 oz Thai Palm Sugar [Boil for75 min](3.0 SRM Sugar 16 6.6 %
0.77 oz Falconers Flight [11.40 %] - Boil 60.0 m Hop 9 33.5 IBUs
1 lbs 0.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.6 %
0.51 oz Falconers Flight [11.40 %] - Boil 30.0 m Hop 10 11.4 IBUs
0.51 oz Falconers Flight [11.40 %] - Boil 25.0 m Hop 11 9.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Falconers Flight [11.40 %] - Boil 0.0 mi Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Falconers Flight [11.40 %] - Boil 20.0 m Hop 12 7.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) [124.2 Yeast 14 -
1.25 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 15 -
0.50 tsp Lactic Acid (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 12.4 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 18.42 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 0.00 qt of water and heat to 168.0 168.0 F 10 min
 
What kind of FG do you guys get with WLP005? I hit mash temps and SG but the little limeys yeasties ran it down to 1.010.

Also, Two Brothers is bringing back 14 old brews as part of their anniversary - maybe one will be Imperial Cane & Ebel.
 
Bookmarked for future reference! FYI, if any of you like their Resistance IPA then look for some threads I started on it and you'll find the recipe I got from them. These two are some of my favorite beers!
 
The wife and I just went to Two Brother's Roundhouse yesterday for lunch. This is one of my favorites. I'm a newbie to brewing and just have a couple of beers under my belt. Does anyone have suggestions for converting this to an all extract recipe?
 
mp70 said:
The wife and I just went to Two Brother's Roundhouse yesterday for lunch. This is one of my favorites. I'm a newbie to brewing and just have a couple of beers under my belt. Does anyone have suggestions for converting this to an all extract recipe?
Click to expand...

You cant do an all extract batch because of the rye malt. You need to do a partial mash.
 
Northern Brewer has a rye malr extract but no way to get the simpsons crystal rye as brewtime said above unless you minimash.

Don't fear the mash tun. What better excuse to jump up to all grain? You might do a simple recipe first to get the feel for things but its beer... not rocket science.
 
mp70 said:
The wife and I just went to Two Brother's Roundhouse yesterday for lunch. This is one of my favorites. I'm a newbie to brewing and just have a couple of beers under my belt. Does anyone have suggestions for converting this to an all extract recipe?
Click to expand...

I agree, you need to mini-mash this one. I use this mini-mash recipe. I've made it twice. First time it was very very close in all aspects. The second, I didn't mash long enough (I think that's where I went wrong) and the OG was low, but still tasty. If you have a kettle 12qt or bigger, a thermometer, and an extra hour you can do this using a brew in a bag approach. There's a good stovetop mini-mash tutorial around here somewhere that will help.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 lb Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 40.06 %
2.13 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 21.36 %
1.35 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 13.56 %
0.90 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 9.01 %
0.45 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.50 %
0.32 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 %
0.32 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 %
0.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 12.0 IBU
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (25 min) Hops 16.7 IBU
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (25 min) Hops 7.8 IBU
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (20 min) Hops 12.6 IBU
0.50 lb Thai Palm Sugar (8.0 SRM) Sugar 5.01 %
1 Pkgs British Ale (Wyeast Labs #1098) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Ale
 

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