candi syrup

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Merlinus

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i'm planing to make a dubbel, i want to make my own candi syrup, but i have a few questions:

1) i'm making it using 350gr of sugar, to calculate the abv how i proceed ? i will have 350 gr of sugars even if i add around 100 ml water ? so in the recipe calculator i add 350 cane sugar ?
2) do i have to add calcium hydroxide ? or works fine with lemon juice also ?
3) do i have to add yeast nutrient ? or will work without it ?
4) after boils start, i will cook it for around 8-10 min

will it be ok ?

its to hard to make it ? it is worth to buy it from shops ?

5) if i put the D2 in my recipe, it will darken too much my dubbel (38 SRM), what can i do ? i want to have around 18-20 srm, but still have the caramel, rum, chocolate taste from the syrup.

thank you !
 
I have made three batches and would say that it is not hard, but consistency may be the issue. I had no consistency in my attempts: 1. toffee, caramel; 2. big rum raisin flavors; 3. somewhat chocolate, toffee, butterscotch. Just make sure that when you get to the smell/color that you want, that you have a plan to cool the syrup.
 
thanks for the fast answer. so:

1) i'm making it using 350gr of sugar, to calculate the abv how i proceed ? i will have 350 gr of sugars even if i add around 100 ml water ? so in the recipe calculator i add 350 cane sugar ?
2) do i have to add calcium hydroxide ? or works fine with lemon juice also ?
3) do i have to add yeast nutrient ? or will work without it ?

thx
 
so still have some questions unanswered:

1) i'm making it using 350gr of sugar, to calculate the abv how i proceed ? i will have 350 gr of sugars even if i add around 100 ml water ? so in the recipe calculator i add 350 cane sugar ? will it be as fermentable as plain 350gr of sugar ? or will need to add more sugar in the syrup to act as 350 gr of sugar ?
2) do i have to add calcium hydroxide ? or works fine with lemon juice also ?
3) do i have to add yeast nutrient ? or will work without it ?
4) my beer will be an extract + partial mash. i will use speciality malts like: special b, biscuit, chocolate, it is better to use the syrup or just dark candi rocks ? (it might get to aromatic if i use the syrup ? )
 
Yes, enter the 350g as cane sugar. The sugar amount doesn't change, no matter how much water you add and for such a small amount, there won't be enough water to cause a noticeable dilution to the overall batch. Also, you will lose some of the water through evaporation, further decreasing the amount.

When I made mine, I used both calcium hydroxide and beer yeast nutrient. If I recall correctly, lemon juice could be used to replace the calcium hydroxide, but the yeast nutrient is necessary. This is the page that I used as reference for my attempts:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html
 
ok thanks ! i figured it would be same as 350 gr of sugar but i have read somewhere this:

"However, the fermentability is limited, so you will want to add the equivalent amount of white sugar to achieve the same weight of candi sugar called for in the recipe. Add the syrup and any other sugars at the end of the boil."

i will try on a small batch with lemon juice, it should work as it is an acid. i will try to find yeast nutrient, but it's hard in my country.

that was the page where i was reading , + this one:

http://www.franklinbrew.org/wp/?page_id=391

what you think about : my beer will be an extract + partial mash. i will use speciality malts like: special b, biscuit, chocolate, it is better to use the syrup or just dark candi rocks ? (it might get to aromatic if i use the syrup ? )

thank you !
 
If you follow the link to my blog, I have a series of articles and videos on candi sugar (under the "DIY" tab). They may be of some help to you. In regards to your specific Q's:

i'm making it using 350gr of sugar, to calculate the abv how i proceed ? i will have 350 gr of sugars even if i add around 100 ml water ? so in the recipe calculator i add 350 cane sugar ?
Just enter the weight of sugar used to make the candi into your brewing program. A small portion of the sugar is lost during the candi-making process, but the loss is minimal.

2) do i have to add calcium hydroxide ? or works fine with lemon juice also ?
DO NOT ADD ACIDS (lemon juice is an acid). Acids will accelerate the inversion of the sugar, but impair the Maillard reactions, which are the reactions which form all those wonderful candi flavours. You need to be adding a base - sodium or calcium hydroxide is best; I've heard of people who used baking soda successfully but cannot claim personal experience.


3) do i have to add yeast nutrient ? or will work without it ?
You need a source of nitrogen for the Maillard reactions. Some people use yeast nutrient (DAP or yeast extract-based nutrients both work). I use a small amount of DME, which IMO produces a nicer product.

4) after boils start, i will cook it for around 8-10 min
You'll need to do a lot more than that:

1) You need to hold the temp at a soft-ball temp for 30 or so minutes to invert the sugar
2) You then need to hold the temp in the hard-ball to hard-crack range to develop the desired level of colour and flavour

Again, details in my blog. I also see someone already posted Ryan's blog post - it is an excellent resource, and is what I based much of my own videos/posts on.

Good luck!

Bryan
 
If you follow the link to my blog, I have a series of articles and videos on candi sugar (under the "DIY" tab). They may be of some help to you. In regards to your specific Q's:


Just enter the weight of sugar used to make the candi into your brewing program. A small portion of the sugar is lost during the candi-making process, but the loss is minimal.


DO NOT ADD ACIDS (lemon juice is an acid). Acids will accelerate the inversion of the sugar, but impair the Maillard reactions, which are the reactions which form all those wonderful candi flavours. You need to be adding a base - sodium or calcium hydroxide is best; I've heard of people who used baking soda successfully but cannot claim personal experience.



You need a source of nitrogen for the Maillard reactions. Some people use yeast nutrient (DAP or yeast extract-based nutrients both work). I use a small amount of DME, which IMO produces a nicer product.


You'll need to do a lot more than that:

1) You need to hold the temp at a soft-ball temp for 30 or so minutes to invert the sugar
2) You then need to hold the temp in the hard-ball to hard-crack range to develop the desired level of colour and flavour

Again, details in my blog. I also see someone already posted Ryan's blog post - it is an excellent resource, and is what I based much of my own videos/posts on.

Good luck!

Bryan

thanks. i will look on your blog, but, on ryanbrews.blogspot.com i saw that you can cook it for 5-10 min if you want it lighter, i want it lighter as its a dubbel and i want to keep it around 18-20 srm. also where i could find calcium hydroxide ? pharmacy ? market ? and if i use light DME, how much would i need to add for 350 gr of sugar ? thx again
 
Warthaug, thanks for catching my faux-pas on the acid...obviously I need to make another batch to keep myself in the game.

Merlinus, calcium hydroxide is often used for preservation of vegetables, but apparently has a wide range of uses. I would start at the market for tracking that down.
 
thanks. i will look on your blog, but, on ryanbrews.blogspot.com i saw that you can cook it for 5-10 min if you want it lighter, i want it lighter as its a dubbel and i want to keep it around 18-20 srm.
The main difference between Ryans method and my own is that he doesn't pre-invert his sugar (his inverts at the same time as the Maillard reactions), while I do. During the inversion process there is minimal colour and flavour changes, which is why my method takes longer to get to a similar point.

I've tried it both ways, and based on my purely subjective experience, I'd say that for lighter sugars both methods are the same. For darker sugars I find that my method produces a broader range of flavours and is less likely to develop strong burnt flavours.

also where i could find calcium hydroxide ? pharmacy ? market ? and if i use light DME, how much would i need to add for 350 gr of sugar ? thx again
I'm not sure where it would be found in your country. It, as well as food-grade lye (sodium hydroxide), is sold in food stores over here. Calcium hydroxide is used in some forms of vegetable pickling, while food-grade lye is used in baking (e.g. for the production of pretzels). You may be able to find either in a well-stocked grocery store.

Bryan

EDIT: both sodium and calcium hydroxide solutions are caustic, so be careful when you work with them, and add them slowly to your sugar - if you over-do it your sugar will throw off the pH of your beer.
 
if i use light DME, how much would i need to add for 350 gr of sugar ?

how will i know if the sugar inverted ? so can it be inverted in 10 min ?

what about if melt and caramelize rock candi sugar ?

which one is better for my beer if i already special b, biscuit, chocolate malts ?
 
You need very little DME; I add a roughly a tablespoon per kilo of sugar. There is no "test" for inversion; 30min for complete inversion is simply an estimate based on various sources I read. Rock candi is (as far as I know) sucrose, so using that would be little different than using table sugar.

Which is better depends on what you want in your beer. Darker sugar will give stone fruit and caramel notes; lighter sugars have less of those flavours, and act mostly to provide alcohol and dryness. I almost always use darker sugars for the flavours they provide - the lighter sugars add so little in terms of flavour that I often just use table sugar to get dryness if required instead of going through the difficulty of inverting the sugar.

Bryan
 
so if i have a bag of amber candi rocks, can i melt them and caramelize them for a better aroma ? without adding anything to them ? (except some water) ?
 
I don't think anyone can say - if the sugar as a nitrogen source than heating (with water) should produce the notes of a darker candi. If it lacks a nitrogen source (i.e. is pure sugar) you will get some carmelization and thus caramel flavour, but wont develop the broader flavour profile typical of dark candi sugars.

Bryan
 
hello. i been trying to do the syrup. i mixed in a pot:

90 ml water
325 white sugar
2 teaspoons malt extract (maybe a little less)
1 teaspoon calcium hydroxide (maybe a little less)

i boiled at low heat for 35 min, it boiled very strong, from time to time i added a teaspoon of water to prevent it overboil. i didn't have a thermometer at the moment, so i don't know how many degrees it had, but it boiled all the time, sometimes i took the pot from the fire for a few seconds, and shaked it a little.

it smells good, like biscuit, toffee, milk-chocolate etc. the color is light, ruby.

it should be good to use, do i have inverted sugar ? will it be fermentable ?

P1190080.jpg


P1190081.jpg
 
That looks really good. As you noticed, time held at a certain temperature develops the flavor/color profile. Always keep some cool water nearby to prevent the temp from rising too high. I've made some acrid tar a few times, in the beginning.
Now getting the goo out of the jar will be a different story.

I always cook the sugar/candi syrup right before brewing or during the boil. When I get to the color/flavor desired, I thin it down a bit with cold water right in the pot, and pour it into the wort at flameout. I rinse the pot out with some hot wort too.
 
That looks really good. As you noticed, time held at a certain temperature develops the flavor/color profile. Always keep some cool water nearby to prevent the temp from rising too high. I've made some acrid tar a few times, in the beginning.
Now getting the goo out of the jar will be a different story.

I always cook the sugar/candi syrup right before brewing or during the boil. When I get to the color/flavor desired, I thin it down a bit with cold water right in the pot, and pour it into the wort at flameout. I rinse the pot out with some hot wort too.

Thanks, for taking it out from the jar, i was thinking at the same method. I have put it in the refrigerator, its not so thick, its medium bodied i think. But im curious if i have candi syrup or just caramel syrup ?
 
Looks good; based on your description and colour change, I'd say that you've got inversion and a nice medium-candi syrup prepared. If it tastes good on its own it should taste good in your beer!

Let us know how it goes!

Bryan
 
I'd say you have a nice Maillard syrup, which I believe to be the proper name for the product. Whatever makes it a candi or caramel syrup may be simply semantics, unless someone can set us straight on that.

Did you read the descriptions and FAQ on the Candi Syrup site?
 
I'd say you have a nice Maillard syrup, which I believe to be the proper name for the product. Whatever makes it a candi or caramel syrup may be simply semantics, unless someone can set us straight on that.

Did you read the descriptions and FAQ on the Candi Syrup site?

Thanks. So would be safe to use it ? Would it be fermentable or should i use dark candy rocks that i have as a plan B ?

Tomorrow i will try to make 1 more batch, as i got a thermometer and i can control more the temperature. Should i use again white sugar (Refined) or should i try with a raw cane sugar (brown) ?

The problem is i don't have much calcium hydroxide , as i found it at a dental shop, and it was quite expensive (3 euros for 10 grams). In other places i couldn't find it, except in construction shops, but i don't know if it's safe to use it.
 
I don't think there is a set definition for what qualifies something as candi; different manufactures are going to make it in different ways - the key thing is the end product. If its a mix of caramelized and malliarded (is that even a word) sugars than its some sort of candi. Otherwise its something else.

If I were you I'd go ahead and use it - just be aware that your sugar isn't as dark as most dark sugars; its more of a medium candi (not an amber, but certainty not a D90/D180 candi), so the flavour may not exactly match what you'd expect of the darker sugars.

As for the calcium hydroxide, you may have better luck finding food-grade lye, which is used in the preparation of some types of bread (e.g. German-style pretzels). Just be careful with it - its a little more caustic than the calcium hydroxide. You could also look into a chemical supplier. Anything ACS grade should be OK for food use, especially in the minute amounts you're using.

Bryan
 
Thanks again everyone for the fast answers. Tomorrow i will try to do it more darker, anyway i want my dubbel lighter in color, also i use in it chocolate and biscuit malts, so maybe this lighter syrup would be good. I have put it in refrigerator and it started to crystalize a little it is normal ?
 
In the presence of calcium hydroxide and amino acids, at those temps the Maillard reactions cause the browning and flavoring of the sugar, similar to those created in a good bread crust or seared meat. Since ours are sugar related the word candi or caramel is logical.

IIRC, rock candy is mostly inverted sugar, and the darker varieties also went through a browning process, but with an acid not an alkali. You may as well add regular sugar.

Yours looks like a D45. To get the deeper colors, you need to cook longer without burning, and there lies the trick. I've read somewhere that they do this in several stages, possibly adding small amounts of amino acids and other stuff (byproducts from sugar beet processing). Ryan's blog, SnickaSaurusRex's thread, and this thread on darker syrups, should give you ideas to the next step. SnickaSaurus' deep amber (290°F) is fantastic. I use it in this Caramel Amber ale and it is one of the best caramel ambers you can brew.

SnickaSaurusRex doesn't mention the use of hydroxide, but you should. You only need a good pinch per pound (Ryan's Blog).

Food grade Calcium Hydroxide is called "Pickling Lime" in the US and pickles are submerged in a solution before entering the pickling brine, to keep them crisp. The most common brand here is Mrs. Wages, and runs $3 a pound. I don't recommend using the calcium hydroxide (lime) used in cement. It may contain heavy metals and/or arsenic. However at the small dosages we use it is probably a negligible, but possible risk.

Sodium hydroxide is a much more aggressive caustic, and although I have no evidence it can be used to create sugar candi, a smaller amount should suffice. It is used as drain opener, so that tells you something, be careful, it will dissolve your skin and cause severe "burns."

Any alkali should work, as the main reason it to bring the pH up for the Maillard reactions to take place and so we don't simply invert the sugar (splitting it into a fructose and glucose molecule), as an acid would do.

In the laboratory Calcium Hydroxide can be prepared by mixing aqueous solutions of calcium chloride and sodium hydroxide. The Calcium Hydroxide precipitates mostly, as it doesn't dissolve well in water.

If you can get real chalk, Calcium Carbonate, and heat it to 825 °C (that's hot), you're left with CaO. Combine that with water to make Ca(OH)2.
 
Tomorrow ill make the starter. I ordered a 3000 ml Erlenmeyer glass, tomorrow i will get it, meanwhile a friend did a Stir Plate for me, and i tested it with a big jar with 3 liters of water and flour (to emulate the yeast).

Is it ok ? is it stirring well ? Inside the bar i have a metallic bar (i will attach a photo) is it ok to be in contact with the yeast ? (its not inox), and its making a lot of noise, what can i do (maybe in the Erlenmeyer won't make that much noise) ?

Movie: http://www.escapismmusique.ro/IMG_2305.MOV

IMG_2306.jpg
 
I tried to make again 1 darker batch, but i got burnt sugar, i will throw it and use the previous batch.
 
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