Can you secondary prematurely

[Shawn Hargreaves]

remilard, you are missing an important point...

Who cares what difference is made by yeast in suspension (after racking to secondary) or in a cake (leaving it in primary)? As you say, nobody has a statistically significant volume of evidence either way. Generally, when there is no solid evidence, that means the difference (if any) is so small is to be insignificant.

If the difference is so small as to be insignificant, then who cares which way you go? It makes no difference to the quality of your beer. So why not do the easy thing and just leave it in the primary? Why waste time fiddling with your beer for no purpose?

These threads tend to conflate two independent things into one. It's important to keep them clear:

- Long time in primary versus shorter time in primary followed by secondary (making the same total time) - there is no statistically significant evidence either way as to which of these is better.

- Not long enough time (regardless of whether you spend this in primary or secondary) - lots of very convincing evidence that this is a bad thing.

 

[remilard]

I am not missing anything. If there is no difference between transferring the beer towards the end of fermentation (and let us all remember please what fermentation is) and not, why did people jump on the OP? Sounds like the effort of racking is worth gaining use of the vessel to him. You are saying there will be no difference to the beer. Sounds like what he wanted to do was the right thing.

 

[remilard]

If that was 100% true then they wouldn't be able to use the priming sugar added for carbonation.
It takes a very long time for all the yeast to become dormant.

The above post is on the wrong side of antagonistic.
Debate is good but you should try to remain civil.

What does priming sugar have to do with yeast at the bottom of the fermenter? Only yeast in suspension make it into the bottle. Nobody is disputing that the yeast in suspension are active but I would guess that nobody is disputing that they would be transferred with the beer if the OP racked either.

 

[BierMuncher]

That’s why I love this place. A simple question brings out the passion in all of us.

Lest we sink this thread under the weight of lofty debate, let’s revisit the OP’s original question and intent:

…My hefe has been in the primary for 6 days…

Hefe’s are famously fast from grain to glass...even though the OP is not asking if he can bottle right now.

…I need the carboy…

Not necessarily trying to get the beer to tap sooner…he just wants to brew again. I’m all for brewing again.

…Am I going to hurt the beer by transferring to the secondary…

This is a hefe…laden with protein haze and yeast. Designed to be drunk in its youth.

Now if this were a Doppelbock or a Wee Heavy that he was intent on serving crystal clear, smooth as silk and at full maturity…then yes, he would be hurting his beer.

Check out the majority of threads asking for the “fastest brew” and hefe’s are a perennial favorite.

So to the OP:
In my opinion…you will not be hurting your hefe by transferring to a secondary after 6 days of fermentation.

Carry on…nicely please...

 

[steelerguy]

Good post BierMuncher! This has devolved some (maybe a lot, didn't see the deleted posts) from the question the OP originally posed.

I do have a question for you though, why would he be hurting his beer if it were a big ale? I would guess that after 6 days, fermentation would still be wrapping up, most of the yeast would have dropped out, and all that would be needed to condition would still be in suspension

Orfy - I certainly meant to offense to david_42 in my previous post. I was just trying to understand what he meant by an active yeast cake. If offense was taken, I apologize.

Denny - I usually do leave my beers on the cake for 3 weeks or so. I get lazy and don't move to secondary most of the time. The times I have moved it off after a week I have noticed no ill effects. In fact, the beer has always still been cloudy at this stage, and a lot of yeast dropped out in secondary while it conditioned and cleared. This is actually what got me thinking about the whole topic of "better beer by leaving it on the cake".

I guess I view it like this... I have a 100 house guests over for a Thanksgiving feast and after 75% of the food was gone, 90 of them stop eating and fall asleep. The remaining leftovers are not going to go any faster if the 90 guests who are done stay with me or go back home. They are done eating, it is now up to the 10 guests left who chose to stay up and keep eating to finish up those leftovers. Making 90 people who are done eating stay in the house is not going to make the food go any faster.

Sometimes those 90 people are drunk though so it is just easier to let them hang around in the house while the 10 sober ones finish up. If you need your house back now though because you want to have another party, it is fine to give them the boot!

Damn...that was a lame anology, I am going to blame it on the home brew I have been enjoying!

 

[steelerguy]

Oh yeah...what did you decide to go Cougfan? Since you caused this big mess you at least should tell us your decision.

PS - Went to the U of A...good comeback yesterday, almost pulled it off!

 

[HSM]

I have found this topic interesting myself. Based upon my understanding of yeast and flocculation, it really should not matter if you transfer the almost done beer off the cake. The yeast in the cake have clumped together for environmental protection because they have finished reproduction and fermentation, they have basically "gone dormant". They are just waiting around for more food and until it arrives, they are done.

The yeast that are still working are in solution and will get transferred with the beer into the secondary, where they will keep on working. I suppose an argument could be made that transferring the beer into the secondary could stress the yeast out causing them to flocculate and stop fermenting, but just some agitation really should have no affect, should actually help them out some.

As I see it, science seems to say it should not matter if you move it at this point. The dogma here seems to indicate you should not move it. Personally, I think you will be just fine moving it. I also have only been brewing for a year. Your call...

Let us know what you do and how it goes.

Agreed 100%. and.. GO STEELERS!

 

[Cougfan]

OK, sorry to start this mess, I thought it was a simple question. I decided yesterday to leave it in there an borrow a 6.5 carboy from a buddy. If that hadn't worked out, I think I would have probably transferred it. I can see all of the points made here, but tend to think that it can't hurt me too bad on a hefe. If it was another kind of beer, I would probably would have left it. Oh well. Thanks for all of the good points made. I love to see the passion. As my wife has said before, its just beer. I can't seem to explain it to her.

BTW, I am VERY happy for you that you beat the puppies last night. I am a COUGAR which is from WSU, not UW!!! Just kidding, we have you guys tomorrow. Should be a good game. Hope you can stand up to the punishing defense GO COUGS!!!!

 

[BierMuncher]

Good post BierMuncher! ...I do have a question for you though, why would he be hurting his beer if it were a big ale?...

Yeast plays a bigger role than simply converting sugars to alcohol. While it's a rather subjective (read anecdotal) theory, yeast not only converts sugars to alcohol and CO2, but it also cleans up after itself (don't ask me for the scientific explanation).

Diacetyl (butter flavor) is a common bugaboo amongst homebrewers. It's often caused by stressed yeast. The most effective method for ridding the diacetyl is to simply raise the fermentation temperature and allow the beer to rest a longer period of time on the original yeast cake. This diacetyl rest is designed to insure a cleaner tasting beer. For lagers it is a necessary regimen.

Any homebrewer who follows a discipline of letting the beer "primary" for 3 weeks will most assuredly have a cleaner, smoother tasting beer.

Now...for a lot of styles, this is not desirable (such as the OP's hefe style).

 

[Denny]

Denny - I usually do leave my beers on the cake for 3 weeks or so. I get lazy and don't move to secondary most of the time. The times I have moved it off after a week I have noticed no ill effects. In fact, the beer has always still been cloudy at this stage, and a lot of yeast dropped out in secondary while it conditioned and cleared. This is actually what got me thinking about the whole topic of "better beer by leaving it on the cake".

Your own experience trumps other people's opinions 100% of the time. My own experience is that moving the beer off the yeast that soon doesn't work well for me. If your experience is different, you should do what works for you.

 

[Revvy]

Yeast plays a bigger role than simply converting sugars to alcohol. While it's a rather subjective (read anecdotal) theory, yeast not only converts sugars to alcohol and CO2, but it also cleans up after itself (don't ask me for the scientific explanation).

Diacetyl (butter flavor) is a common bugaboo amongst homebrewers. It's often caused by stressed yeast. The most effective method for ridding the diacetyl is to simply raise the fermentation temperature and allow the beer to rest a longer period of time on the original yeast cake. This diacetyl rest is designed to insure a cleaner tasting beer. For lagers it is a necessary regimen.

I was just listening to the Aussie Craftbrewer radio podcast from last week, and in the tech segment they talked about acetaldehyde, the green apple taste sometimes present and Graham Sanders just mentioned that one of the ways to help get rid of it is to let the beer sit on the yeast cake longer as well. It's just a quick mention, along with a few other suggestions...But he does mention it.

CraftBrewer Radio Blog Archive January#2,2009

 

[Denny]

Very true...,both diacetyl and acetaldehyde get cleaned up by the yeast if given a chance.

 

[remilard]

A well made ale won't have either about two days after fermentation ends if not by the moment fermentation has ended. Notice the veritable cornucopia of 21 day old ales at brewpubs with non-detectable levels of both.

Those are the only common flavor compounds in beer that are reduced by yeast and yet, reading here, you would think endless contact with the yeast will cure all sorts of ills.

If you have diacetyl or acetaldehyde in an ale 14 days after you pitched the yeast, you are screwing up somewhere. I recommend fixing the problem where it occurs.

 

[Bobby_M]

Just like I submitted in the previous debate on this topic, the beers that I later made tasting notes on generally described as "better" sat in primary longer than ones that were described as "fair" or "average". Of course, if you want to quote from prominent brewers out there, Jamil does a 4 week primary IIRC. Pitching rate is by far the biggest variable here and I think most of us underpitch. Certainly brewpubs are adding 3x the yeast that we normally use and therefore can push their pipeline faster.

 

[Yooper]

A well made ale won't have either about two days after fermentation ends if not by the moment fermentation has ended. Notice the veritable cornucopia of 21 day old ales at brewpubs with non-detectable levels of both.

Those are the only common flavor compounds in beer that are reduced by yeast and yet, reading here, you would think endless contact with the yeast will cure all sorts of ills.

If you have diacetyl or acetaldehyde in an ale 14 days after you pitched the yeast, you are screwing up somewhere. I recommend fixing the problem where it occurs.

Maybe brewpubs don't have the issue with 21 day old ales, but I would be willing to bet they pitch more than one little vial of yeast per 5 gallons. In an ideal environment, the proper amount of yeast cells would be pitched, and the perfect fermentation temperature would be held. Since this isn't the usual circumstance in a homebrew setting, comparing 21 day old brewpub ales to homebrews is a absurd. You're reaching here to justify your stance. (Incidentally, though, I have tasted diacetyl in beers in brewpubs- it's not necessarily out of place in some beers, but I have tasted it in places it's not part of the style. It's not unheard of)

I would say that the vast majority of the problems we see here almost never come from being too long in contact with yeast. The variety of ills we see usually are from attempting to rush the process.

Will you harm your beer from racking in 5 days? Probably not. Will you benefit it from racking in 5 days? Probably not.

I HAVE had diacetyl in a 14 day old beer. I have also had acetaldehyde in a 14 day old beer. Know why? Because they were 14 day old beers.

Either that or my brewing skills suck.

 

[Revvy]

Everything I have read and even the podcast I referenced say that both diacytl and acetaldehyde are both natural aspects of the fermentation process. And that time on the yeast is the cure for getting rid of it.

The podcast goes into a great description of the formation of it.

Acetaldehyde – This is an intermediate compound in the formation of ethanol. If beer is not given ample time to age and condition, it develops the flavor profile of green apples or farm-fresh pumpkin.

Description: This flavor or aroma is reminiscent of the flavor or aroma of green apples.

Cause: It may be indicative of bacterial infection, but also may be a sign that the beer is too "young" and needs to age.

Remedy: Make sure good sanitation procedures are followed to avoid infection. Make sure your homebrew is not removed from the yeast too soon during fermentation.

And this on diacetyl;

"THE ROLE OF DIACETYL IN BEER
By Moritz Kallmeyer"

The Abstract begins...

Diacetyl as a product of fermentation is more characteristic of ales than lagers. Diacetyl is produced early in the fermentation, and then most of it is reabsorbed by the yeast and reduced to flavourless compounds later on. Yeast strains differ markedly in their diacetyl reduction ability. Some ales and a few lagers (such as the famous Pilsner Urquell) contain perceptible amounts of diacetyl, but as a rule modern brewers consider it as a fault. This is because certain bacterial infections and other errors in brewing technique will increase diacetyl levels resulting in unacceptable beer aroma and flavour profile. This parameter thus serves as a quality check. However, it is important to remember that diacetyl flavour is a natural by-product of yeast fermentation, and in some beer styles it is an optional or even required flavour component in low amounts.

From here....


Drayman's Brewery and Distillery

There's two methods of rests listed in the Kallmeyer article...one for ales and warmer beers....interesting.

Maturation of beer flavour requires the presence of yeast as a catalyst. There are many methods of finishing that have the sole objective of prolonging the contact of beer with yeast after primary fermentation is completed. I want to emphasize that a diacetyl rest with most of the yeast lying at the bottom of the tank and not enough in suspension is of no use. Most lager breweries, especially those that use Weinhenstephan 308 or similar “diacetyl producing yeast’s” employ a long diacetyl rest, in order to minimize diacetyl in the finished beer.

Method 1
If a very cold primary fermentation was used it involves allowing the beer temperature to rise from the controlled primary fermentation temperature of about 10°C to 15-18°C when the primary fermentation is coming to an end. Normally, the time is determined by the attenuation of the beer. If, for example the wort starting gravity was 1050 and the expected terminal gravity is 1010, then the diacetyl rest would be commenced when the beer has attenuated to about SG 1023 when two-thirds of the total fermentable material in the wort has been consumed. The diacetyl rest normally lasts for 48-72 hours, until primary fermentation is over and secondary fermentation is under way. At this time the temperature is lowered when the more traditional method is followed, probably 1°C per day until the lagering temperature of 0-1°C is reached.

Method 2
If a warmer primary fermentation temperature was used for ale or lager the diacetyl rest involves either lowering the beer temperature 2 or 3°C at the end of primary fermentation or keeping it constant for up to 6 days. In lager yeast strains with low diacetyl production it is common practise nowadays to employ a short diacetyl rest followed by centrifuging to remove excess yeast and then crash cooling to 0°C. When brewing ales, that should have very low diacetyl levels especially German Ales like Alt and Kölsch, the implications are to not use highly flocculent yeast and to allow an extended primary fermentation, albeit at cooler temperatures until sufficiently low diacetyl levels are reached. Yeast that settles in the cone is still removed on a daily basis.

Interesting for ALES one of the recomendations is to LOWER the temps a bit...or leave them at the same temp for 6 days...learns something new everyday...I'm going to have to try the cool rest.

It also backs up the idea of leaving beers on the yeastcake for awhile longer to allow the yeasts to clean up after themselves.

 

[RayInUT]

Hahah, at 6 days, if my hydro comes in where it's expected....my hefe is getting bottled.

I personally see no reason to secondary a hefe. Brew it, ferment it, bottle it, and start drinking it........10 to 15 days in my house.

That's traditional hefe, using WL300.......other yeasts/recipes may differ. Especially if you are brewing an american style.

Amen! I just kegged a batch last night that I brewed a week ago today. I did use a half gallon starter of 3068 and it fermented like crazy. Hefe's are for drinkin' not for aging!!! I force carbed and had a glass a little while ago. Seven day superbowl beer...that's what I'm talking about!

 

[chefmike]

Revvy, I have to point out the following:

And that time on the yeast is the cure for getting rid of it.

Method 2
If a warmer primary ...... .........until sufficiently low diacetyl levels are reached. Yeast that settles in the cone is still removed on a daily basis.

It also backs up the idea of leaving beers on the yeastcake for awhile longer to allow the yeasts to clean up after themselves.

So The rest does not happen on the yeast cake by my read of this.... I may be missing something... I am trying to learn alot and close down at work!

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, I have to point out the following:



So The rest does not happen on the yeast cake by my read of this.... I may be missing something... I am trying to learn alot and close down at work!

Remember that is a commercial brewing paper and they are probably using conicals, where the yeast fall out and away from contact with the beer. BUT if you look at the intro it say this.

Maturation of beer flavour requires the presence of yeast as a catalyst. There are many methods of finishing that have the sole objective of prolonging the contact of beer with yeast after primary fermentation is completed.

In fact they author would like to see the yeast actually remain in suspension....

 

[beds]

I rack after 3-5 days based on hydrometer. I think there's a theory that you do not want to harvest your quickly-flocullating yeast that has fallen out of suspension in these first days. You want the strong yeasts that stay in suspension and fight for those last few points of gravity! I like to personify my yeasts and like to promote Darwinism in my little yeast wold. The cake from my secondary is super-cake.

 

[remilard]

Maybe brewpubs don't have the issue with 21 day old ales, but I would be willing to bet they pitch more than one little vial of yeast per 5 gallons. In an ideal environment, the proper amount of yeast cells would be pitched, and the perfect fermentation temperature would be held. Since this isn't the usual circumstance in a homebrew setting, comparing 21 day old brewpub ales to homebrews is a absurd. You're reaching here to justify your stance. (Incidentally, though, I have tasted diacetyl in beers in brewpubs- it's not necessarily out of place in some beers, but I have tasted it in places it's not part of the style. It's not unheard of)

I would say that the vast majority of the problems we see here almost never come from being too long in contact with yeast. The variety of ills we see usually are from attempting to rush the process.

Will you harm your beer from racking in 5 days? Probably not. Will you benefit it from racking in 5 days? Probably not.

I HAVE had diacetyl in a 14 day old beer. I have also had acetaldehyde in a 14 day old beer. Know why? Because they were 14 day old beers.

Either that or my brewing skills suck.

Racking a beer that is fermenting doesn't take the beer out of contact with yeast. Nobody seems to want to explain how it is the yeast at the bottom of the carboy (separated from the beer by a half inch of other yeast) and not the yeast in suspension that are performing the magic for us three weeks after fermentation has ended.

I think people are mistaking "in contact with yeast" for "in contact with yeast visible to the naked eye".

The latter group of yeast, those visible, have flocculated. The former group, those in suspension, are there despite our not being able to see them.

 

[Cheeto]

HEY CougFan !!!! PM me I will talk with you in person about all of this !!!!


If you need a fermentor to use I can help you !!!

I live in spokane !!

-Jason !!!!!

 

[steelerguy]

Racking a beer that is fermenting doesn't take the beer out of contact with yeast. Nobody seems to want to explain how it is the yeast at the bottom of the carboy (separated from the beer by a half inch of other yeast) and not the yeast in suspension that are performing the magic for us three weeks after fermentation has ended.

I think people are mistaking "in contact with yeast" for "in contact with yeast visible to the naked eye".

The latter group of yeast, those visible, have flocculated. The former group, those in suspension, are there despite our not being able to see them.

This is what I have been trying to say also, removing the beer from the yeast that has stopped working is not removing the beer from yeast. There are still billions and billions of yeast in the beer that you are racking off. Most importantly, these are the active yeast that are actually still doing work and cleaning up after the slobs that went to sleep at the bottom of the carboy!

There seems to be a misconception that removing the beer from the primary is removing it from the yeast and that simply is not the case. Also, in no way am I arguing that one remove the beer from the primary after a week without reason. I only do if I need the fermentor, if I don't...then I just let it sit in the primary until I have the time and inclination to move it to secondary or bottle.

Got to say, this has been a great thread, lots of good debate and I think we have all done some reading and learned more about yeast than we did before!

 

[Orfy]

My point of view is that you do not need to get the beer off the yeast cake as soon as possible and that the yeast cake is not inert.
Time and time again experience of brewers show that leaving the beer in primary for extended periods (10 days +) does not harm the beer and in many experiences makes good or better beer.
There is no way the yeast cake is finished due to the fact that dumping a fresh beer on a used yeast cake is one of the quickest ways to get the fermentation going on a beer. This beer does not suffer from autolysis.

It's pointless arguing it must be right to take it of the yeast ASAP because that's what commercial brewers do. The reason they do it is because they need to use the primary fermenters again asap to get another brew going.

To the OP. moving to a secondary vessel after 6 days will not hurt your beer.
I would be tempted to take a little of the yeast cake with it although there will be enough yest in suspension to continue the job.

 

[remilard]

It's pointless arguing it must be right to take it of the yeast ASAP because that's what commercial brewers do. The reason they do it is because they need to use the primary fermenters again asap to get another brew going.

What was the situation the OP was in again?

There is no way the yeast cake is finished due to the fact that dumping a fresh beer on a used yeast cake is one of the quickest ways to get the fermentation going on a beer. This beer does not suffer from autolysis.

What the yeast might do in the presence of additional nutrients and oxygen is an interesting question but has nothing to do with what they will do under current conditions.

I mean, if you take yeast out of cryogenic storage and add it oxygenated wort it will reproduce and be active. Wouldn't it be logically bankrupt for me to use this fact to claim that yeast in cryogenic storage are active?

 

[Yooper]

 

[flyangler18]

The latter group of yeast, those visible, have flocculated. The former group, those in suspension, are there despite our not being able to see them.

Flocculated yeast does not mean that active fermentation is complete; some of the English strains look like cottage cheese even during high krausen.