Can You Brew It recipe for Wychwood Hobgoblin

[Jes2xu]

Jes2xu - welcome to the world of trying to reproduce Hobgoblin...

Gbx, I was starting to look at the invert sugar as well. Its the only ingredient not being added
that the brewer suggested. That and a few minor things (ph, strike water ratio, yeast amounts)

Bottle ABV: 5.2% - straight from the UK and US bottles.
Cask ABV: 4.6% - straight from Jeff Drew (head brewer)

I was thinking of adding a few % of invert sugar - If only I can get some lime to make it.
But what color/flavor of invert sugar. This page claims to be able to get various different flavors and colors

I estimate that we would have to add 1/2 pound invert sugar to get OG of 1.051 and FG of 1.011 (values of original brew.)

Jes2xu, GBX, DSmith, do you measure pH of your beers ? I'd love to know what you achieved. I measured the commercial beer at 3.64. My latest is at 4.1.

I was reading that the more yeast you pitch, the faster the ferment and the lower the final pH of the beer. It takes me more than 3 days to ferment and I use a 1.5L starter on a stir plate. To get 3 day ferments, like the brewer suggested, I'm going to need more yeast.

Nah sorry man, I dont track ph at all, I guess I should start though. I also don't worry much about water. To be fair our water here is better for malty type beers. I kinda feel like ph and water will be the last things i worry about after everything else is sorted.


I'm actually considering throwing some prunes and port or sherry into the "secondary" on the next one i do. Not sure if it will be hobgoblin.....but I'm sure it will be tasty hahaha.


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[adam01]

So I found some things to consider for future brews.

1. Mash thick - 1:1 - better maltose levels.
2. Pitch more yeast, so fermentation completes in 3 days (wychwood)
3. Use fullers 64-68-64 fermentation schedule or Wychwood's 60-68-46.
This stops fermentation so that target FG is not overshot.
4. Boil first runnings for partial carmelization
5. Double the crystal malt amount -
The Fuller commercial recipe vs Fuller homebrew recipe DOUBLED the crystal malts.
6. Use some invert sugar, golden syrup, etc. for caramel/toffee taste.

What do you think about the ideas ?

 

[gbx]

My plan is going to be brewing the recipe as per the brewer but padding it out with golden syrup or homemade invert syrup to 5.2%ABV. If I was to brew today with the malts I have it would be like this:

Expected OG: 1.052 SG
Expected FG: 1.013 SG
Expected ABV: 5.2 %

Maris Otter (Fawcett) 9lb 0oz 85.1 %
Crystal 75 (Baird's) 12.00 oz 7.1 %
Chocolate Malt (Baird's) 3.25 oz 1.9 %
Sugar - Invert Sugar (Golden) Syrup 10.00 oz 5.9 %

but this brew has to wait as I have homegrown hops that need harvesting.

 

[balrog]

So I found some things to consider for future brews.

1. Mash thick - 1:1 - better maltose levels.
2. Pitch more yeast, so fermentation completes in 3 days (wychwood)
3. Use fullers 64-68-64 fermentation schedule or Wychwood's 60-68-46.
This stops fermentation so that target FG is not overshot.
4. Boil first runnings for partial carmelization
5. Double the crystal malt amount -
The Fuller commercial recipe vs Fuller homebrew recipe DOUBLED the crystal malts.
6. Use some invert sugar, golden syrup, etc. for caramel/toffee taste.

What do you think about the ideas ?

Do you mind fleshing out the specifics on your #3 above? I presume those are °F, but for how many days each step, and do they use they same yeast with those different (64 vs 60) first fermentation steps?

 

[DSmith]

So I found some things to consider for future brews.

1. Mash thick - 1:1 - better maltose levels.
2. Pitch more yeast, so fermentation completes in 3 days (wychwood)
3. Use fullers 64-68-64 fermentation schedule or Wychwood's 60-68-46.
This stops fermentation so that target FG is not overshot.
4. Boil first runnings for partial carmelization
5. Double the crystal malt amount -
The Fuller commercial recipe vs Fuller homebrew recipe DOUBLED the crystal malts.
6. Use some invert sugar, golden syrup, etc. for caramel/toffee taste.

What do you think about the ideas ?

The closest I've brewed is summarized in post #81, #84 & #87.

I mash thick like you mentioned in #1 and have no idea of it's affect vs. mashing thinner for this beer.

Fermentation with the yeast starter per Mr. Malty and Wyeast 1318 was done in a few days at constant temperature. I think Wyeast 1968 would also be a good choice.

I would not boil the first runnings. I've made Wee Heavy that way and the taste is completely different.

The crystal malt in Hobgoblin is 55-60L (English medium crystal), not the 80L type listed in the CYBI recipe. The CYBI brewer mistakenly did not convert EBC to Lovibond correctly. The lower L crystal malt will make the beer sweeter. I agree that it should be increased if your beer is coming out too dry.

I've brewed with Golden Syrup (up to 20% for one English Bitter, Candi Sugar Inc Golden Syrup). I have a bottled cider right now with Golden Syrup. I don't think the the flavor does comes through until you use darker syrups that would be out of place here. I'd skip adding sugar if the beers are coming out too dry.

The carbonation should be very low. I'd also use the palest English base malt available or a 50/50 mixture of English and American 2-Row.

The brewer also said CaCl2 is added. I'd brew this beer without the minimal SO4.

 

[gbx]

I've brewed with Golden Syrup (up to 20% for one English Bitter, Candi Sugar Inc Golden Syrup). I have a bottled cider right now with Golden Syrup. I don't think the the flavor does comes through until you use darker syrups that would be out of place here. I'd skip adding sugar if the beers are coming out too dry.

belgian golden candi sugar is not the same as british invert sugar. The british stuff is darker. Even Lyle's golden syrup is darker and will bring a caramel flavour. But we don't know what colour invert they are using. ..and its just my suspicion that they are using invert to pad out the bottled version to 5.2%, maybe its is a completely different brew than the cask version

 

[adam01]

Balrog;

Fullers ferments at a starting temp of 64. They let the temp rise to 68 as fermentation takes off; Then at 20%? left, the drop back to 64 (getting there at their desired FG).

Wychwood says, the start at 63, rising to 68 during fermentation. After 3 days, their fermentation is nearly complete and they cold crash to 46 to achieve their FG and drop the yeast out of the beer.

DSmith;

The Wychwood brewer did say that they had a vigorous boil to partially carmelize the wort. So I was going to try that on a small batch to see what the difference would be.

I didn't understand your comment on CaCl and SO4. What's minimal SO4 ? Dallas has 80-90 mg SO4.

 

[DSmith]

Balrog;

Fullers ferments at a starting temp of 64. They let the temp rise to 68 as fermentation takes off; Then at 20%? left, the drop back to 64 (getting there at their desired FG).

Wychwood says, the start at 63, rising to 68 during fermentation. After 3 days, their fermentation is nearly complete and they cold crash to 46 to achieve their FG and drop the yeast out of the beer.

DSmith;

The Wychwood brewer did say that they had a vigorous boil to partially carmelize the wort. So I was going to try that on a small batch to see what the difference would be.

I didn't understand your comment on CaCl and SO4. What's minimal SO4 ? Dallas has 80-90 mg SO4.

Here is an email regarding the water chemistry from Jeff at Wychwood:

"We use relatively hard water but this heated to 90c to remove the temporary hardness and chlorine. We add 50g of CaCl2 and 20g NaCl per brl to the mash tun"

My last version had 70ppm Cl and 25ppm SO4 for all brewing water. I've brewed many beers with just Chloride only (minimal or no sulfate) and that approach seems to work for this beer vs sulfate. Earlier attempts were higher in sulfate (100 ppm) and seemed too minerally.

I will email Jeff and ask about the sugar. We should get an answer straight from the brewer. Thanks for pointing out the difference between English and Belgian sugar. I've never used a Lyle product.

I believe the brewer stated they use a calorimeter brew kettle. I think this is an external heater where the wort is drawn off and heated and reintroduced to the kettle. It's very possible there is some flavor coming from that process that's different from just a kettle over a flame.

 

[DSmith]

I will email Jeff and ask about the sugar. We should get an answer straight from the brewer.

Looks like the answer will have to wait. I got an automated-response:
"I am holiday until Monday 22nd September 2014"

I'll update this if I get an answer.

 

[adam01]

Wow, a chloride/sulfate ration of 70:25 = 2.8 - very malty...
I guess I need to start cutting my water way down with distilled.

Maybe we should just ask him about scaling the crystal malts for a homebrew scale.
I've never heard of a calorimeter brew kettle...

Great job getting a hold of the brewer. I sent email a while ago but never received responses from him.

 

[adam01]

So since GBX is going to do the invert sugar experiment (Golden syrup), I'll do
an experiment on adding more crystal malt - 60% more.

This experiment will just be a mash and a sampling of the wort after boil
and after crashing to drop the trub. I'll also make a control wort with the
original crystal %. This is a 1/2 gal size so I don't have a lot of wort.

Hopefully I can see a difference, enough to brew a full batch this weekend.

 

[adam01]

So much for my 1 gallon brewing skills. I'm just going to brew a regular batch with more crystal. Anyone use lactic acid in their brews?
LHBS was out of acid malt. I'm looking for guidance on this first time using liquid lactic acid.

 

[adam01]

What a day.

First, my son did his eagle project - Yea!

Brewed HG with 66% more crystal 60 to see how that tastes.

The wort is a good deal sweeter. But not the sweetness of HG.
I think GBX will have to provide what he gets from using golden syrup or whatever invert sugar he uses.

I used Dsmith's water profile (very malty with 3:1 CL : SO4) and WLP002.
I'm using the HG fermentation profile. Hopefully my starter made enough yeast.
I'll pour off the liquid and dump the yeast tomorrow, after the trub settles enough to dump.

 

[DSmith]

Congrats. I'm also an Eagle Scout.

I wouldn't look at the Cl/SO4 ratio but their individual levels. What I suggested (and used) is not extreme and think it works well with a malty beer.

I generally brew with more sulfate and less chloride but sweetness of Hobgoblin and low bitterness (and email from the brewer) lead me to using more chloride. The version with more chloride (and less chocolate malt, post #81) tasted more like Hobgoblin than my previous trials.


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[adam01]

So my fermentation with wlp002 is super quick - 2 days. It was down to 1.013 at 7am. So I started crashing the temp from 68. I guess I'll pull it off the yeast tonight into the keg.

But the samples don't have the HG sweetness.

 

[adam01]

Any word from Jeff, the Head Brewer ?

 

[adam01]

So I went to the glass night to taste Hobgoblin on tap for you guys. It is not as sweet as the bottle. I'll verify tomorrow.

 

[adam01]

Anyone with new ideas ? I asked uk brewlabs to recommend a yeast. No response.

 

[gbx]

I've been brewing nothing but german styles for the last year but I was at the government store tonight and found these gems siting in a display of ****ty pumpkin beers. I drank the porter tonight. It was decent. Closer to guinness draught than any other english porter I've had (I wish I had cracked it earlier in the night and could give it a better evaluation) ...but the mini cask of hobgoblin! look at the ABV! its the same % as the cask version and clearly not the bottled 5.2% export version. i will crack it next weekend when the family is over for thanksgiving diner (canadian thanksgiving is next weekend) and I'll report back. I might have to pick up a bottle of export hobgoblin for comparison.

 

[adam01]

I saw those on the website 2 Years ago and asked the distributor if they were Coming to the us. But nothing since.

Maybe if its not filtered you could culture some yeast from it.

 

[gbx]

We drank the Hobgoblin cask tonight. Its was a little old and had hints of oxidation but in better shape then most bottles I've had. I wish I had bought a bottle to compare it with but I'll try my best (believe it or not, I am bjcp certified and scored 80 on a tasting exam a few years back). It was very dark. I'd say it was slightly darker than the bottled hobgoblin. There wasn't a speck of yeast in the cask and every pint poured perfectly bright. The aroma is identical to the bottle with no noticeable hop aromas. All toffee and malty notes. Malt dominates the flavour but there is mild yeast esters. Toffee and hints of chocolate. There is definitely something there I've never been able to reproduce in a homebrewed version. Either its the simpsons crystal or its the dark invert sugar. There is very little hop flavour and whats there seems more like fuggles than styrian goldings and cascade. The body is definitely lower than the bottled version and its very well attenuated. Not near as sweet as the bottles and closer to my home-brewed versions in terms of mouthfeel than to the bottle version. I really enjoyed this beer. I'm definitely going to rebrew once I'm done with the lager pitch I'm using now. I will definitely think about what I'm going to do for recipe. What I have is close but too many hops and there is something dark in there we don't have. Maybe its a darker crystal but i think its a brewing sugar of some sort.

 

[adam01]

Brewery says Whitbread derivative yeast

Haven't reviewed the thread to see if anyone has used that . Maybe I have, but don't recall.

 

[KPBrews]

Tagged. I totally want to try brewing this, once my skills get up to par.

The local pub we stayed near last year had a freshly-tapped keg of Hobgoblin, and it was sensational! I must have had nearly 2 gallons of the stuff! Sadly, the bottled version isn't quite as tasty, IMO... still tasty, but not AS tasty. I'd like to attempt to replicate the cask version, as much as possible, although I'll be working from a dim memory by the time I'm ready to give it a go...

 

[adam01]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1446075262.575700.jpg Carmelizing sugars - turbinado plain or with brown sugar or sparkling DME.

 

[adam01]

Brewing HG today. Wy1098 + some kettle carmelization of the first 1qt. What else do you brew on Halloween ?

 

[5hakesbeer]

I saw those on the website 2 Years ago and asked the distributor if they were Coming to the us. But nothing since.

Maybe if its not filtered you could culture some yeast from it.

I live in the UK and have thought about culturing some from one of the local pubs when they have it on draught.
I wish I had thought about it sooner as my mate picked up one of the 5L mini kegs recently but we drained that in no time!
Hobgoblin has been my favourite beer without question for roughly the last 10 years so brewing it at home is the holy grail for me.
I listened to the podcast on the way home from work tonight and although I'm yet to do my first allgrain brew I just can't wait to try it.

...I suppose on the subject, has anyone managed a close extract version of it? would be helpful for a newbie like me to start off with something a little easier I suppose... anyway, I digress...

I've also been to the brewery for a tour a few years ago but since getting back into homebrewing I am thinking of going again sometime soon so I'll try to take some pictures so you can all get a better idea of the fermentation chambers etc. If my memory serves me well they were large rectangle chambers partially covered (as briefly mentioned in the podcast)
If any of you across the pond that can't just nip 50 miles down the road to visit Wychwood have any questions about the brewery I'm more than happy to go on an undercover mission...

 

[adam01]

I/we can't figure out where the sweetness taste comes from - yeast, sugars, ?

I'd love to hear from a homebrewer that has visited Wychwood and gently asked them how they come by that sweetness taste, maybe get some yeast, etc.

 

[gbx]

...I suppose on the subject, has anyone managed a close extract version of it? would be helpful for a newbie like me to start off with something a little easier I suppose... anyway, I digress...

It shouldn't be too hard to do an extract version. You could swap out the pale ale malt for extract and steep in the chocolate and crystal. I'm sure it won't be perfect but none of us have had that level of success attempting to brew it all grain. I think this is a perfect newbie recipe as the gravity is reasonable, no special ingredients, the turnaround time is quick and the margin of error around hobgoblin is pretty wide. You can completely miss the target of Hobgoblin clone and still make a very drinkable special bitter or brown ale.

 

[5hakesbeer]

Sounds good. Shortly after posting that I searched for one and found Orfys extract recipe. I'm costed the ingredients last night and it works out ok so I'll give it a go in a few weeks.

As for the sweetness I'm not too sure, I guess the water could play a big part in the way the tastes are presented? I live in the Cotswolds so my water at home shouldn't be too dissimilar to that used by wychwood. I'll look into the possibility of harvesting some of their yeast and test that as well...

 

[KPBrews]

Sounds good. Shortly after posting that I searched for one and found Orfys extract recipe. I'm costed the ingredients last night and it works out ok so I'll give it a go in a few weeks.

As for the sweetness I'm not too sure, I guess the water could play a big part in the way the tastes are presented? I live in the Cotswolds so my water at home shouldn't be too dissimilar to that used by wychwood. I'll look into the possibility of harvesting some of their yeast and test that as well...

Link to the extract recipe?

 

[5hakesbeer]

I can't seem to find it using the search on my phone... I've got it bookmarked on my Mac so if no one else has posted it by tonight I'll post it then

 

[5hakesbeer]

Here's the extract link:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20228

Also, something in the back of my mind appeared this morning...
I'm almost certain the Wychwood tour guide mentioned a beer that they bottle condition. It has been a good 5 years or so since that tour and for all I know it could be a memory from the Hook Norton Brewery tour from around the same time that has manifested itself in my memory of the Wychwood tour...
Back then I had only attempted a couple of home brews in my uni days (all following the instructions from the all-in-one pack - trebling the added sugar content to make a ridiculously strong beer-coloured drink) so I didn't really pay too much interest to anything specific, I was just enjoying the tour like any normal person would.

Now, If my memory is correct I think he was talking about one of the Brakspear beers, perhaps Brakspear Triple? I remember him talking through that beer for a while as they double drop it, and it is called "Triple" because it is essentially triple fermented... I think they counted bottle conditioning as one of those three?
If it is bottle conditioned then there should be yeast present, yes?

Listening to Jeff Drew on that podcast I'm pretty sure he said that he was selected to become head brewer at Wychwood because he had previously worked with the yeast etc. from his Brakspear days before both breweries were bought by Marstons.
So if the same yeast is used for the Brakspear ales and the Wychwood ales (any my memory is correct) then we have a beer to harvest the Wychwood yeast from!

Does anyone have any further information to shoot me down/confirm my suspicions?

 

[5hakesbeer]

My memory was correct:

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/brakspear-triple-iii/173826/

There we go! Plain as day... bottle conditioned.
This is a wonderful beer by the way for anyone that hasn't tried it, it's just a shame that the ABV means you can't drink it all night!

Has anyone harvested the yeast from this?
I think this is a ruddy good excuse to buy a few bottles of the stuff

 

[adam01]

Ive tried wy1275 aka Brakspear yeast. page 15 has a link saying its whitbread derivative (wy1098)

Enjoy brewing.

 

[5hakesbeer]

Brilliant, I somehow skipped over that!
In that case I'll give WLP007 a go seeing as that is a little easier to get in the UK and should essentially be the same thing as wy1098

I think I'm ready to give the extract + steep recipe a go for this now, although I'll probably have to wait until the 5th to try it (going to Monaco next weekend and all my ingredients have to be ordered online).
I'll order everything this week and nail down the method so I'm good to go.
If all goes well I could have the perfect Christmas present for myself!

...I'll report back with my results

 

[gbx]

Hello all,

I brewed this again on friday. This time is a little different as I brewed with my fresh homegrown hops. I have already brewed the obligatory double IPA and this used up the left overs of my harvest (I only got about a quarter of last years harvest due to the crappy summer weather). This was a no-chill brew with the late hops all added to the chilling vessel.

2016 HarvestGoblin:

9lb TF Golden Promise
13oz Bairds C75
3oz Carafa Sp 2 (I didn't have any UK chocolate malt)
1.5oz Black Strap Mollases (sub for the invert sugar)

2.75oz wet 2016 Hallertau + Goldings @FW
1oz 4%AA EKG @ FW (Store bought as I didn't have enough homegrown)
2oz dry 2016 Saaz @ 0 (Saaz IS the correct substitution if styrian goldings are not available, don't let anyone sell you fuggle)
1oz dry 2016 Cascade @ 0

1tsp CaCl, 1tsp CaSO4 (Vancouver's tap water is essentially RO)
S-04 Pitched at 12C, 18C ambient
OG: 1.044

The gravity sample was very yummy. I'll post a follow up when I drink it.

 

[gbx]

We drank the cask at canadian thanksgiving dinner yesterday and did a side by side with a store bought. The usual issues: too light in body and alcohol, too hoppy. The colour was almost perfect, the wychwood is slightly more red and head is tan vs mine's off-white head. Maybe this is the carafa sp 2 vs the chocolate malt? This store bought bottle had a heavy mollases note. The black strap in mine is barely perceivable if at all.

I think its pointless trying to replicate the export bottles they sell here with this recipe. I really enjoy this recipe but it comes out closer to the Iron Maiden Trooper than Hobgoblin. Not really a bad thing?

 

[adam01]

>Export glass bottles

Are you saying bottled vs Cask ?

I've had fresh English bottles and they are similar to what we have here.
I've also had a keg version - there wasn't much difference, if any with the bottles here.

 

[gbx]

>Export glass bottles

Are you saying bottled vs Cask ?

I've had fresh English bottles and they are similar to what we have here.
I've also had a keg version - there wasn't much difference, if any with the bottles here.

The bottles they sell here in Canada is the 5.2% ABV, low hopped, heavy malt version. There is no way the recipe from CYBI is the same. The mini cask that I bought last christmas (and refilled with my homebrew) was 4.3% and it seemed conceivable that the recipe given in the interview might make that beer with the same malts and process.

 

[TonyKZ1]

Yesterday afternoon I brewed a 5G Extract w/steeping grains recipe, it was a Hobgoblin Dark English Ale clone from Jaspers. The grains and hops sure smelled good while brewing. I guess I'll know how it turned out in a few weeks. I've never tried the original but it sounded good so I thought, why not?