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Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

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Enjoy By is a 50/50 mix of English and US base malt with some dextrose on top, word straight from the brewmaster. I imagine the US base malt is standard 2-row, the English could be Marris Otter, Golden Promise, not sure.

Mitch Steele did an article in Zymurgy recently about hop bursting and he mentioned Stone have had a lot of success with FWH in their beers. I thought that was rather interesting because as far as I know there isn't an "official" Stone recipe that calls for first wort hopping, maybe they use it in recipes that they haven't revealed to the public (Arrogant Bastard?).

Assuming Arrogant Bastard is what Stone say it is (their pale ale scaled incorrectly), Stone pale ale has about 1lb/bbl hops total. The pale ale uses about 30% of the hop weight for bittering and 70% for flavour/aroma in the whirlpool. If I scale the recipe up to 1.5lb/bbl and replace all the hops with Chinook, 30% weight at 90 minutes, 70% at whirlpool / hop stand, I get ~85 IBU (12.1% Chinook) which is interesting since that's pretty much exactly where people estimate the IBU's to sit.

Could just be coincidence of course but in a 5 gallon batch that's ~4oz hops total, 1.2oz at 90, 2.8oz at whirlpool.

TrickyDick's version is obviously too dark, according to what I can figure out his recipe amounts to around 23 SRM?

Using 90% base malt + 10% Caraaroma (~150 SRM) which is the malt I suggested earlier as a roastier replacement for Special B, no other malts, I calculate about 20 SRM which seems like it would be closer to the real colour?
 
I brewed this back in early December.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium (Great Wes Grain 1 86.7 %
1 lbs Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.7 %
8.0 oz Crystal 150, 2-Row, (Great Western) (150 Grain 3 3.3 %
1.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 4 46.9 IBUs
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5 3.3 %
2.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 39.5 IBUs
3.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15. Hop 7 14.8 IBUs


Turned out very nice, but not a clone at all. More hop flavor than any AB I have had.
 
I did a double bastard last year with C150. It is much higher in gravity so the taste profile is different than it's sibling. Personally, I found the C150 lacking the 'crystal' flavor apparent in both DB and AB. Perhaps it was my brewing process this time.
 
Enjoy By is a 50/50 mix of English and US base malt with some dextrose on top, word straight from the brewmaster. I imagine the US base malt is standard 2-row, the English could be Marris Otter, Golden Promise, not sure.

Mitch Steele did an article in Zymurgy recently about hop bursting and he mentioned Stone have had a lot of success with FWH in their beers. I thought that was rather interesting because as far as I know there isn't an "official" Stone recipe that calls for first wort hopping, maybe they use it in recipes that they haven't revealed to the public (Arrogant Bastard?).

Assuming Arrogant Bastard is what Stone say it is (their pale ale scaled incorrectly), Stone pale ale has about 1lb/bbl hops total. The pale ale uses about 30% of the hop weight for bittering and 70% for flavour/aroma in the whirlpool. If I scale the recipe up to 1.5lb/bbl and replace all the hops with Chinook, 30% weight at 90 minutes, 70% at whirlpool / hop stand, I get ~85 IBU (12.1% Chinook) which is interesting since that's pretty much exactly where people estimate the IBU's to sit.

Could just be coincidence of course but in a 5 gallon batch that's ~4oz hops total, 1.2oz at 90, 2.8oz at whirlpool.

TrickyDick's version is obviously too dark, according to what I can figure out his recipe amounts to around 23 SRM?

Using 90% base malt + 10% Caraaroma (~150 SRM) which is the malt I suggested earlier as a roastier replacement for Special B, no other malts, I calculate about 20 SRM which seems like it would be closer to the real colour?


I need to learn to multi quote....

I heard the Enjoy By used Golden Promise. That's what I used in my attempt. Very very close. mine not as bitter, but was battling boilovers and had to turn down intensity of boil. I also didn't use extract for mine. the nose and flavor were bullseye though. Its a great brew...

I'm not sure AB uses FWH. Seems too aggressively , no arrogantly, bitter for a FWH. That said, I'd love to experiment with tasting a brew done with FWH and without. I've done a few times, and truly I find it hard to discern a real "Wow this FWH bitterness is great" impact... but thats just me. From what I've read therefore, it seems the bitterness is huge in AB, and I'd be surprised that they got it that way with FWH. I'd bet that hop extract may be used though. Anyway... I think Chinook is the right Hop used. Whether or not they add any Athanum or not, who knows....

The Caraaroma usage was proposed earlier in the thread. I don't recall who. Has anybody brewed it with Caraaroma yet? FWIW, Beersmith predicts my SRM at 21.8 on that brew. I've noticed they come out a bit darker than intended. I haven't figured out why, but I suspect mis-labelled crystal malt sack (not this batch though). anyways...

I had proposed trying to do an experiment by adding steeped specialty grains, strained and the liquor boiled then cooled into 1 gallon jars/bottles. This will be blended with wort from a batch of AB clone brewed without any specialty grain. Racking near high krausen into 1 gal vessels each containing the appropriate dose of said cooled liquor. Multiple Mini mashed 1 gallon stovetop boil batches could do the same, but seems like that'd be more work. I haven't really committed to doing this yet, since I don't have any 1 gallon vessels to ferment in. Plus I still need to figure out how to do the proportions of malt properly. Ideally the specialty malts would be ones not requiring mashing, which I think is probably the case with the usual suspects in question here. Of course, in order for this to hone in on AB, the hops would need to be right from the get go. Mine were not quite there, but as I've previously mentioned, at that time I brewed, my burners weren't getting the boil as rigorous as they needed to, AND I didn't have whirlpool ability for steeping hops. The whirlpool seems to make a difference in the extraction of the flavor and aroma character in my opinion versus just a stand still steeping.

So I guess we need say 5 (though I often like to do 10 gal batches) candidates for the specialty malts for my experiment. I really wonder if anyone has tried this type of experiment and if it will really work as intended, for zeroing in on a clone recipe?

TD
 
Just throwing this out there:

What if the darker color and prune/raisin flavor is from 150 or 180 candi sugar. Would substantiate a less roasty flavor with the darker color as wwll as more hop flavor/aroma due to using simple sugar instead of converted sugar chains.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Home Brew mobile app
 
Just throwing this out there:

What if the darker color and prune/raisin flavor is from 150 or 180 candi sugar. Would substantiate a less roasty flavor with the darker color as wwll as more hop flavor/aroma due to using simple sugar instead of converted sugar chains.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Home Brew mobile app

Like I told you yesterday, I think this is an excellent experiment for someone to do. I know they were doing a lot of travel to Belgium to observe techniques that the monks use, like candi. You might be onto something...formulate, brother!
 
Like I told you yesterday, I think this is an excellent experiment for someone to do. I know they were doing a lot of travel to Belgium to observe techniques that the monks use, like candi. You might be onto something...formulate, brother!

Oh, already working on it. Thats why I picked up that 180L candi yesterday.

Just giving the forum the idea too, in case gets to a brew day before me.

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So are you going to do small batch or trying for a homerun? I really want to see someone nail this recipe to the wall...it has been so elusive. I talked to Tasty about it at NHB convention in Philly and he said Jamil had given up and moved on. Tasty did not seemed pleased...Jamil has a lot on his plate these days, but if you google this topic (can you brew it) AB comes up predominantly. People really want this recipe! Hell there are almost 800 posts in this thread and we are inching closer to it...keep brewing fellas!
 
So are you going to do small batch or trying for a homerun? I really want to see someone nail this recipe to the wall...it has been so elusive. I talked to Tasty about it at NHB convention in Philly and he said Jamil had given up and moved on. Tasty did not seemed pleased...Jamil has a lot on his plate these days, but if you google this topic (can you brew it) AB comes up predominantly. People really want this recipe! Hell there are almost 800 posts in this thread and we are inching closer to it...keep brewing fellas!

Homerun, of course! ;-)

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Does anyone have the 4th attempt recipe handy? The CYBI episode seems to be offline and I can't find Tasty's final recipe anywhere. Thanks!
 
I didn't know there was a 4th attempt.
I finally brewed my version last weekend.
5 gal batch
87.8 2row
9.5% c150
2.7 c75
mashed at 149 for 75 min.
90 min boil
all chinook
fwh .75oz
60min .75oz
20min .5 oz
and .25 oz at 15, 10, 5, 0, min
thanks srtonebrewer for that hop schedule.

wlp007 at 69-70

c150 is a little hard to get online. Only place i saw that had it was austin homebrew.

I'll post results when its ready.
 
This looks promising. I haven't brewed once since new year. Want to try again at this later this year.

Be sure to post a side by side and comparison notes.


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I am going for a 10g batch with the following bill, on 3/29:

26 lbs of 2-row
2 lbs of CaraAroma
1 lb of D-180 Candi Syrup

Stone's hop schedule, except 3 oz at FWH instead of 1.5 FWH and 1.5 @ 90.

149F mash temp mixed with Belgian Candi Syrup should get me a 7.2% ABV beer with both dry and malty characteristics (Stone trademarks). The hops will do the rest.

Will do side by side and tasting notes when ready.


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5 gal batch
87.8 2row
9.5% c150
2.7 c75
mashed at 149 for 75 min.
90 min boil
all chinook
fwh .75oz
60min .75oz
20min .5 oz
and .25 oz at 15, 10, 5, 0, min
thanks srtonebrewer for that hop schedule.
wlp007 at 69-70

I'll post results when its ready.

ok bottled this last weekend. here are first impressions after looking and tasting my hydrometer sample. no pics until its carbed up and I do a side by side.
first i did not boil enough off. ended up with .25 gallons too much this resulted in a 1.057 og. :(
my fg was 1.011 color I can tell you without even having ab on hand is too light. and not red enough more of a gold color. Also the AB hop bitterness bite is not there, its much softer. Tastes good but just not right. I'm thinking changing the fwh and the 60 min both to a 90 min. to get that bite back.
maybe using c60 or more c75 to get that red.

I'll post the pics and notes when its ready to drink.
 
This is why I think it needs some chocolate malt, a little bit of roasty, without being roasted barley. I think the crystal blend is likely to be similar to the "English" crystal blend that had previously been used.

I've been super busy and no time to brew so far this year. I might consider trying a re brew in April. But already planning to do the three Vermont DIPA clones from BYO that week.

For bitterness, I think they are probably using extract. If they have it for their enjoy by, I bet they are using it wherever they can. I agree it's not got the bite that the real deal has. I wonder if it is the intensity of the boil, or not accounting for losses in the aa% for storage. I plan to double up on the bittering hops the next time I brew this. I am telling you though, I strongly think that the recipe is no longer a smash style brew. There are more than a single specialty malt in there. Only other thing to consider is if its the wrong yeast being used. San Diego super yeast??

TD


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No choc or roasted malt in the recipe.

85-90% 2 row
10-15% cry120/special b
The range varies based on your system.

Chinook at 90, 45, 15 I target 90 ibus total using an even amount at all three times.

I use Wlp007. I have more luck with it finishing lower with 007 that 002.

People always underestimate the yeast when it comes to the difference in flavor between clones an actual versions of AB.

I also will dry hop for 5-7 days with 1 oz chinook for five gallons.

This recipe is simple. When overthought it becomes too muddled of a beer.


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That fact that nobody has successfully cloned this recipe indicates it is more than meets the eye.
special B is reportedly not in the grist, and homebrewers who've used it, and posted results in this thread, indicate often it is either out of place or they used too much.
I do think that I taste a little roast flavor in the real AB, but not RB, and I suspect it may be a high temp killed chocolate that adds the reddish hue, and slight hint of roast, I think no more than 1.5% of the grist.
Also brewers who used a blend of c-150 and SB or c-150 alone at about 10% if memory serves! indicated that it was not right.
The closest I think as reported in this thread was use of the dark British crystal, such as the stuff more beer carries, which seems to be either a blend of crystal, or uneven kilning, I'm frankly not really sure, but they give the color as a range, not an absolute.

Also, most suggest there are no dry hops in AB.

TD


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NZ is finally getting a keg of this at a Lola beer fest. I've not tried to homebrew it yet. But I suspect after next weekend it will be something to try. Looking forward to it. I'll try to take detailed tasting notes although it will be a little aged i would say. Given the length it's travelled.


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Okay, gents, here we go.

I am brewing my attempt at Arrogant Bastard on 3/29. I have a 3.5L starter of WLP007 going right now, which I will step up again with another 3.5L on Friday, after work.

I am going off my previous attempt at this, and the work put into this "clone" by Stonebrewer, Ultravista and TrickyDick.

As noted by the others, and which is my personal opinion as well, Special B is off in this recipe. However, it isn't that far off. Special B has a raisin/date flavor to it which is just a little "over-the-top". C120 and C150 get you close on color, but lack the flavor profile. So, I got to thinking.... I know, dangerous!

What grains follow closely in Special B's footsteps. Rather, what grains were created to meet the needs of brewers who didn't have access to Special B. Well, there were two that caught my attention.. Weyermann CaraAroma and British (Munton/Baird) Dark Crystal.

Well, Stonebrewer already tried the British Crystal and thought it was close, but still not quite right. So, I am going for CaraAroma. CaraAroma has a less sharp dark fruit (plum/raising/fig) flavor, has a more pronounced aroma profile, and is reported to be a little more "roastiness". I have also heard that CaraAroma has a tendency to provide more red color than just contributing to darkness.

As such, here is what I am doing:

Arrogant Bastard Clone - Old Ale (19 A)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10.50 gal
Boil Size: 13.69 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 11.44 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 10.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Date: 29 Mar 2014
Brewer: Michael Clements
Equipment: Keggle
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.6 %

Ingredients:

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
22 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.5 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 2 13.5 %
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 3 34.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 4 31.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 9.0 IBUs
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 5.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 3.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]

Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color:

Est Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.2 %
Bitterness: 91.2 IBUs
Est Color: 20.5 SRM
Measured Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.3 %
Calories: 233.4 kcal/12oz

Mash Profile:

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Sparge Water: 8.68 gal
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.20
Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 32.74 qt of water at 161.3 F 148.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.81gal, 6.87gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI
Age for: 30.00 days
Storage Temperature: 65.0 F
 
Okay, gents, here we go.

I am brewing my attempt at Arrogant Bastard on 3/29. I have a 3.5L starter of WLP007 going right now, which I will step up again with another 3.5L on Friday, after work.

I am going off my previous attempt at this, and the work put into this "clone" by Stonebrewer, Ultravista and TrickyDick.

As noted by the others, and which is my personal opinion as well, Special B is off in this recipe. However, it isn't that far off. Special B has a raisin/date flavor to it which is just a little "over-the-top". C120 and C150 get you close on color, but lack the flavor profile. So, I got to thinking.... I know, dangerous!

What grains follow closely in Special B's footsteps. Rather, what grains were created to meet the needs of brewers who didn't have access to Special B. Well, there were two that caught my attention.. Weyermann CaraAroma and British (Munton/Baird) Dark Crystal.

Well, Stonebrewer already tried the British Crystal and thought it was close, but still not quite right. So, I am going for CaraAroma. CaraAroma has a less sharp dark fruit (plum/raising/fig) flavor, has a more pronounced aroma profile, and is reported to be a little more "roastiness". I have also heard that CaraAroma has a tendency to provide more red color than just contributing to darkness.

As such, here is what I am doing:

Arrogant Bastard Clone - Old Ale (19 A)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10.50 gal
Boil Size: 13.69 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 11.44 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 10.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Date: 29 Mar 2014
Brewer: Michael Clements
Equipment: Keggle
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.6 %

Ingredients:

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
22 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.5 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 2 13.5 %
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 3 34.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 4 31.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 9.0 IBUs
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 5.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 3.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]

Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color:

Est Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.2 %
Bitterness: 91.2 IBUs
Est Color: 20.5 SRM
Measured Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.3 %
Calories: 233.4 kcal/12oz

Mash Profile:

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Sparge Water: 8.68 gal
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.20
Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 32.74 qt of water at 161.3 F 148.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.81gal, 6.87gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI
Age for: 30.00 days
Storage Temperature: 65.0 F

Didn't get to brew this weekend, due to weather.... :thumbdown:
 
2L starter made with 1L of thick slurry yesterday @ 5pm. Awoke this morning to a barely moving stir plate due to thickness of starter.

Gonna pitch half and save half (that's a lot of slurry)!!!
 
Conditioned grain and crushed - check

Whole leaf Chinook hops already broken up and ready for tomorrow - check

Brew pots outfitted and ready to be put on single-tier brewstand - check

Plate chiller and pump head sanitized - check

Yeast starter churning away - check

All systems are a go for tomorrow's brew day!!!

1396658993287.jpg
 

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