Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[TrickyDick]

TD: when I did the side by side I was really surprised at how far off I was as I went in thinking it was cloned! I have the hops right and the color. Malt is close, but different...can't quite put my finger on what the difference is. Glad you did the side by side...it is a great learning tool in my opinion! From the pix, I would say yours looks almost like a porter with a wee bit of amber showing through. Beginning to think I need to back down on the dark crystal after seeing that picture. How much did you use and how much special roast? Cheers!

Doing my fantasy draft online now. I use Beersmith on my MacBook, so when I get a chance, I'll post my stuff on what I used.

Mine is waay to dark, but let me know if you think the grist is out of whack for color. I'm getting darker results than I used to lately.

TD

 

[reuliss]

Well. Stone AB On the right. Mine on the left.

Mine is darker, more brown than red but hues of red noted. I've noticed since using beer smith, all my brews come out a bit darker than expected.

Mine has more malty aroma. Figs and dark fruits. Stone has a more neural floral aroma

Flavor. Well there is a lot going on in mine. Very malty. Toast like, plums and figs and dark fruits. Smooth. Hops are there for sure but smooth and not as, well, arrogant. The stone brew carries the bitterness over the tip of the tongue all the way to the throat. There are hints of roasted barley in this I swear. The bitterness lingers well into the aftertaste and persists after the malt flavors subside. My version is perceptibly less bitter on the mid palate and for sure not as bitter in the back palate and throat.

Mouth feel is identical best I can tell. Equally dry and smooth drinking.

I think that my brew I had some hop extraction problems. I've since switched to a different regulator and the boil is more vigorous. This could be part of it. The hop flavors are difficult to pick out in mine because the malt is more prominent and masks that aspect you sense in AB, but I think that the hops are very close.

AB does have some definite but very subdued plum flavors in there too I can sense.

As my samples warm a bit I perceive more hops in my own brew while in the Real AB the malt flavors come out more as it warms.

Aromas is waay off on mine. Specialty malt.

ABV and OG/FG are identical AFAIK.

This was fun. I'll take another stab at it in 2014. May bottle some for future reference. It's tough to down a whole bomber and also a highball of my own 7.2%

TD

Nice write up! Mind sharing the recipe you used? And why the special roast? I agree that the beer has a roasty taste, but always found special roast more tangy tasting than anything, though that may just be me.

 

[s2000]

I really think you guys should have a look at Weyermann Caraaroma. I don't work for Weyermann, I swear!

I have some Caraaroma and some Special B in front of me. Please note I am not an expert or anything, just my immediate thoughts. The Caraaroma is visibly, obviously darker. Some of the grains look almost as dark as a pale chocolate. The lightest Caraaroma grains are about the same colour as the darkest Special B.

The Special B smells like raisins. Sweet raisins. Smelling it, you know it will be sweet. It has that sugary, caramel tone to it. You know what it smells like? Slightly burned raisin cookies, like a hint of barely burned cookies underneath the raisins. Maybe a hint of the plum people talk about.

The Caraaroma smells like burned plums. Like a Christmas plum pudding. It reminds me of dark rum, although that could just be my brain associating it with the pudding. There is no immediate rasiny sweetness like in Special B, the straight up first impression is all burned plums. The burned/roasted aroma is way stronger, using the cookie analogy, if your cookies smelled like this it would be one of those "OH CRAP!" moments, running to the oven, but it's too late, they're burned, but not so badly you can't eat them. Definitely a bit of a "dark chocolate" sensation coming through, nothing like you'd get from chocolate malt, but ... let's say you made a chocolate glaze, put it on a plum pudding, and it accidentally burned? That's what I imagine this would smell like.

It seems like "not roasty enough" is the top complaint for what is missing in the clone malts, and I think that this might give that roasty edge without quite entering "chocolate malt" sorts of flavours.

Your results may differ!

 

[TrickyDick]

Nice write up! Mind sharing the recipe you used? And why the special roast? I agree that the beer has a roasty taste, but always found special roast more tangy tasting than anything, though that may just be me.

Here was my brew. looks easier to read if your column width is big enough to prevent wrap around. I lost a bit more than ususal since I didn't use hop sacks. Ended up probably about 9 gallons finished beer. Gave some to a friend.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.48 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.70 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.074 SG (Actual 1.072)

Estimated Color: 21.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 75.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.8 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
25 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.8 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -150L (150.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.4 %
8.0 oz Special B (Dingemans) (147.5 SRM) Grain 3 1.7 %
8.0 oz Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.7 %
2.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 0.4 %
2.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 6 40.5 IBUs
1.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 12.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
1.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 10.4 IBUs
1.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 7.6 IBUs
1.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 4.2 IBUs
3.25 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Chinook [11.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Ahtanum [6.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 15 -
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10 min) Other 16 -



Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, w/Temp Mashout
Total Grain Weight: 29 lbs 6.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 44.82 qt of water at 157.1 F 148.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 170.0 F over 4 min 170.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.99 gal water at 168.0 F

I made an appropriately sized starter.
My FG was 1.017 (ABV 7.3%)
per BeerSmith 21.8 SRM, but seems to be darker in the glass - this has been a problem for me since I switched to Beersmith. Maybe I need to get some SRM cards to compare to my computer screen. I have no clue what my Special B SRM contribution was, as it seems the different suppliers can have quite a range. I wish homebrew suppliers were more diligent about informing us who the maltsters are and what the SRM/L values are.

I steeped the aroma hops post boil, and I had actually cooled the wort to around 140ºF before adding them, and I let them sit for 30 minutes. I think that I will probably maybe just knock the temp down to 180 next time I try this. I'd been reading the volatile hop oils have some low flash points which is why I tried 140, but I think i didn't extract the aroma and flavor that I might have had with just a flame out addition like I've been used to doing.
I couldn't tell you if the ahthanum hops added any significant effect or not, but as I had them on hand, I used them.

I would also point out that I think my hops were off in the side by side, because of 1.) lack of vigorous boil with decreased extraction/utilization and 2.) steeping hops added at lower than traditional temp.

I added the special roast to try and capture the roasted flavor that I think is in there. I will probably skip the Special B and Special Roast altogether and try toasting a portion of the C-150, and possibly adding just a tiny pinch of roasted barley. I might try tasting the crystal malt beforehand to see if I can discern any plum or roasted notes that I think I taste in the commercial AB.

I've rambled enough already...

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

I really think you guys should have a look at Weyermann Caraaroma. I don't work for Weyermann, I swear!

I have some Caraaroma and some Special B in front of me. Please note I am not an expert or anything, just my immediate thoughts. The Caraaroma is visibly, obviously darker. Some of the grains look almost as dark as a pale chocolate. The lightest Caraaroma grains are about the same colour as the darkest Special B.

The Special B smells like raisins. Sweet raisins. Smelling it, you know it will be sweet. It has that sugary, caramel tone to it. You know what it smells like? Slightly burned raisin cookies, like a hint of barely burned cookies underneath the raisins. Maybe a hint of the plum people talk about.

The Caraaroma smells like burned plums. Like a Christmas plum pudding. It reminds me of dark rum, although that could just be my brain associating it with the pudding. There is no immediate rasiny sweetness like in Special B, the straight up first impression is all burned plums. The burned/roasted aroma is way stronger, using the cookie analogy, if your cookies smelled like this it would be one of those "OH CRAP!" moments, running to the oven, but it's too late, they're burned, but not so badly you can't eat them. Definitely a bit of a "dark chocolate" sensation coming through, nothing like you'd get from chocolate malt, but ... let's say you made a chocolate glaze, put it on a plum pudding, and it accidentally burned? That's what I imagine this would smell like.

It seems like "not roasty enough" is the top complaint for what is missing in the clone malts, and I think that this might give that roasty edge without quite entering "chocolate malt" sorts of flavours.

Your results may differ!

Thanks!

I have some on hand. I will try tasting some when I'm putting together my next attempt at the AB sometime next year.

 

[reuliss]

Okay, here's what Im going to go with this weekend. Significantly more hops than my last batch, 4 oz less special B and the addition of the pale chocolate.

Arrogant Bastard v.2

Style: Unassigned OG: 1.074
Type: All Grain FG: 1.018
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 7.34 %
Calories: 242 IBU's: 114.86
Efficiency: 70 % Boil Size: 7.52 Gal
Color: 21.2 SRM Batch Size: 6.00 Gal
Preboil OG: 1.064 Boil Time: 60 minutes

Fermentation Steps
Name Days / Temp
Primary 7 days @ 69.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
18.00 lbs 92.90 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036
1.25 lbs 6.45 % Special B Malt 60 mins 1.030
2.00 ozs 0.65 % Fawcett Pale Chocolate 60 mins 1.030

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
1.00 ozs 35.26 Chinook 90 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 32.97 Chinook 60 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 30.27 Chinook 45 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 16.36 Chinook 15 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Chinook 0 mins 13.00

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale White Labs 0007

Additions
Amount Name Time Stage
0.50 each Whirlfloc Tablet 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Light Body Infusion In 75 min @ 145.0°F
Add 19.38 qt ( 1.00 qt/lb ) water @ 162.0°F
Full Body Infusion In 15 min @ 160.0°F
Add 8.72 qt water @ 200.0°F
Sparge
Sparge 12.06 qt of 170.0°F water over 60 mins

 

[ultravista]

Dang, that's a lot of hops. Me thinks a little overboard, but it should be a good hoppy beer.

 

[reuliss]

Dang, that's a lot of hops. Me thinks a little overboard, but it should be a good hoppy beer.

Well, I'm sure I won't get the IBU's that the program calculated. And all I'm really adding is an additional ounce during the boil at 60 min and an additional one at flame out. Now, I admit that that 60 min addition will add a lot more bitterness, but that was what I saw as the major flaw of my first attempt. The malt actually seemed close to me (though I know that's controversial on this thread), but there was NO DOUBT that my beer needed way more bitterness to emulate the commerical beer.

 

[BigJay13]

Well, I'm sure I won't get the IBU's that the program calculated. And all I'm really adding is an additional ounce during the boil at 60 min and an additional one at flame out. Now, I admit that that 60 min addition will add a lot more bitterness, but that was what I saw as the major flaw of my first attempt. The malt actually seemed close to me (though I know that's controversial on this thread), but there was NO DOUBT that my beer needed way more bitterness to emulate the commerical beer.

Do you do anything to your water? Sorry if this has been asked already. Burtonizing your water will increase the bitterness. I'm not saying you should do that but adding some salts may be worth a shot too.

 

[reuliss]

Do you do anything to your water? Sorry if this has been asked already. Burtonizing your water will increase the bitterness. I'm not saying you should do that but adding some salts may be worth a shot too.

No need to apologize, it's a long thread! Yes, I typically add salts to my brew water, unless I'm brewing something where I don't want the hops to pop as much.

 

[stonebrewer]

reuliss: Your recipe looks good to me! Only thing I might change would be to move that 60 addition to FWH. I found when I did that it made a huge impact on the flavor and really nailed the hop character of this beer. I like your malt choices and reducing the SB was something I think needs to be tried. Since we are neighbors, I am happy to come by sometime and do a taste test...grin!
Cheers!

 

[reuliss]

reuliss: Your recipe looks good to me! Only thing I might change would be to move that 60 addition to FWH. I found when I did that it made a huge impact on the flavor and really nailed the hop character of this beer. I like your malt choices and reducing the SB was something I think needs to be tried. Since we are neighbors, I am happy to come by sometime and do a taste test...grin!
Cheers!

Thanks, Stonebrewer, I'll be sure to share with you (so long as its worthy of our goal here)! As far as the FWH, I thought about that because you had mentioned before that you liked the results. To be honest, I didn't do it simply because I've never done it before, though maybe you can help allay my primary concern without getting us too off topic.

My main concern is this: By tossing those hops in preboil, I'm concerned taht they'll scortch on the bottom of the kettle as I try to bring up the temp, which I'm thinking would bring out nasty vegetal and tannic flavors. I'm sure you haven't had that problem, but can you share how?

 

[stonebrewer]

Absolutely. I actually toss mine in while I am filling the kettle and have never had any off flavors. Though the kettle is hot, the hops are suspended in wort that is below the boiling point. There is movement in the kettle as I am constantly pumping in new wort, that is cool (145-155F) which is in turn keeping the likelihood of scorching at near zero. As the volume increases, the probability of the hops scorching becomes even less. I really don't think this is anything to be concerned about as many, many homebrewers are doing FWH and I have not read any reports of issues with scorching. If I am using pellet hops, I also have them in either a hop bag or more recently a stainless steel hop basket which sits off the bottom. I have used a lot of leaf hops in the past with FWH and just toss them in. There is no more concern of scorching during FWH, IMHO, than at any other time during the boil.

Best of luck!

 

[reuliss]

Okay, here's what Im going to go with this weekend. Significantly more hops than my last batch, 4 oz less special B and the addition of the pale chocolate. Arrogant Bastard v.2 Style: Unassigned OG: 1.074 Type: All Grain FG: 1.018 Rating: 0.0 ABV: 7.34 % Calories: 242 IBU's: 114.86 Efficiency: 70 % Boil Size: 7.52 Gal Color: 21.2 SRM Batch Size: 6.00 Gal Preboil OG: 1.064 Boil Time: 60 minutes Fermentation Steps Name Days / Temp Primary 7 days @ 69.0°F Grains & Adjuncts Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity 18.00 lbs 92.90 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036 1.25 lbs 6.45 % Special B Malt 60 mins 1.030 2.00 ozs 0.65 % Fawcett Pale Chocolate 60 mins 1.030 Hops Amount IBU's Name Time AA % 1.00 ozs 35.26 Chinook 90 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 32.97 Chinook 60 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 30.27 Chinook 45 mins 13.00 1.00 ozs 16.36 Chinook 15 mins 13.00 2.00 ozs 0.00 Chinook 0 mins 13.00 Yeasts Amount Name Laboratory / ID 1.0 pkg Dry English Ale White Labs 0007 Additions Amount Name Time Stage 0.50 each Whirlfloc Tablet 15 mins Boil Mash Profile Light Body Infusion In 75 min @ 145.0°F Add 19.38 qt ( 1.00 qt/lb ) water @ 162.0°F Full Body Infusion In 15 min @ 160.0°F Add 8.72 qt water @ 200.0°F Sparge Sparge 12.06 qt of 170.0°F water over 60 mins

Took my first taste tonight. Hopping level right, but malt? Nope. Has anyone done a batch with nothing but pale malt and c 160?

 

[ultravista]

I did a Double Bastard last weekend. OG was 1.104 from 22.5 pounds of grain and I actually got 70% extraction efficiency

With a healthy starter, fermentation took off in about 6 hours.

With 5 oz. of Chinook, it's going to be a might fine tasting beer. If it attenuates as it should, it will be in the 1.020-025 ballpark.

 

[ultravista]

My recently brewed Stone Double Bastard is missing some of the Chinook goodness that comes in the bottle.

The 5.5 gallon batch has 5.5 oz. of Chinook (12.7 AA) - 3.5 oz. at 90 minutes, 1.75 at 15, and .5 at flameout (about 180F). It is plenty hoppy but that distinctive Chinook aroma and flavor is absent. OG and FG is 1.104 and 1.024.

With that said, I am considering dry hopping.

How much of the 12.7 AA Chinook will I need to get noticeable flavor and aroma out of the keg?

It is still conditioning in the carboy therefore not carbonated. Will the CO2 bring out some of the aromatics after it has been under pressure? Flat vs. carbonated beer tasted different ...

 

[barrooze]

My recently brewed Stone Double Bastard is missing some of the Chinook goodness that comes in the bottle.

The 5.5 gallon batch has 5.5 oz. of Chinook (12.7 AA) - 3.5 oz. at 90 minutes, 1.75 at 15, and .5 at flameout (about 180F). It is plenty hoppy but that distinctive Chinook aroma and flavor is absent. OG and FG is 1.104 and 1.024.

With that said, I am considering dry hopping.

How much of the 12.7 AA Chinook will I need to get noticeable flavor and aroma out of the keg?

It is still conditioning in the carboy therefore not carbonated. Will the CO2 bring out some of the aromatics after it has been under pressure? Flat vs. carbonated beer tasted different ...

Alpha Acids don't really matter during dry-hopping. You're not isomerizing, so you can ignore that number. The mass will be what matters. In my experience, if you want to maximize your dry-hopping, do it in two batches. You can dry-hop 2oz at fermentation temps, then rack to a keg and dry-hop another 2oz at serving temp. This will give you two different dry-hop characteristics and will provide all aspects of the chinook hop.

Adding carbonation will definitely help bring out the aromas of the beer, afterall, that's one big contributor from head, right? Once the bubbles rise from the beer, they take aromas with it and bring to the surface where your nose takes over.

 

[reuliss]

Took my first taste tonight. Hopping level right, but malt? Nope. Has anyone done a batch with nothing but pale malt and c 160?

You know, after this batch has matured a bit more, I'm realizing that I'm not too far off. Bought a fresh bomber of AB last night and did a side by side. Pretty darn close. Hops taste the same. My malt profile is less intense, but the flavor components are all there. I just need to dial it up. I'm thinking either more Special B, or switching to Extra Dark English Crystal (C-160, I think). Also, perhaps I mashed too low afterall. It could be a contributing factor. Please let me know if anyone has tried the 160.

But seriously, though. This recipe isn't "it," but it's really close.

 

[ultravista]

reuliss -what hop schedule did you follow?

 

[TrickyDick]

Try 90% base malt And 10 % specialty For the specialty def use c-150 but also use a smaller amount of special b, just a hint, and some chocolate malt for color and some c-40 for depth of flavor. That's what I'm doing the next time. I'm thinking, of the malts I mentioned, and without using software to get color level, of that 10%

5% c-150
1% special b
Then fiddle with the c-40 and chocolate malt for appropriate amber color.

That's my opinion though. The hops were posted several posts back..

 

[TrickyDick]

You know, after this batch has matured a bit more, I'm realizing that I'm not too far off. Bought a fresh bomber of AB last night and did a side by side. Pretty darn close. Hops taste the same. My malt profile is less intense, but the flavor components are all there. I just need to dial it up. I'm thinking either more Special B, or switching to Extra Dark English Crystal (C-160, I think). Also, perhaps I mashed too low afterall. It could be a contributing factor. Please let me know if anyone has tried the 160. But seriously, though. This recipe isn't "it," but it's really close.

Beware upping the special B.
Try chocolate malt and c-40 in addition

 

[ultravista]

My Double Bastard was really lacking flavor and aroma from the Chinook. My brew process for most batches is to let the flameout hops "stand" for an hour or so (covered w/lid) while the wort cools to make chilling easier. In Las Vegas, my ground water temp never really gets cold, cool, but not cold.

I just realized that the long hop stand is the root of my absent flavor and aroma problem. From what I now understand, the longer the contact time at higher temps, the less flavor/aroma is produced.

The fermentation blows-off some of the aroma right? Why not just opt for dry hop vs. the flameout addition? The bittering contribution @ 170-180 is small anyhow ...

This CYBI Arrogant Bastard for example calls for 85/45/15/0 of Chinook. With my process, flavor or aroma from the 15 and 0 is gone. Wouldn't 2 oz. at 90 and 2 oz. dry hopping produce similar results than the 85/45/15/0 with a quick chill?

Would there be a downside to foregoing the late addition and just dry hopping?

It was lacking the Chinook flavor/aroma until dry hopped the serving keg with 1 oz. of Chinook. At less than 24 hours, the Chinook goodness if now very prominent.

 

[stonebrewer]

Why not wait until your wort is below 180 before adding in the Chinook? Dry hopping will work as well, but I get more aroma that flavor from dry hopping, so I think you still want to do really late additions, with your process, to get some of that flavor component while perhaps waiting until the last 25 minutes of your hop stand to add the Chinook...good luck!

 

[crusader1612]

How important is the longer 90 min boil?

After bottling when would this be ready realistically to drink??

 

[stonebrewer]

Stone does almost all their beers at 90 minutes. Uses more fuel and probably isn't really needed, but I do it because they do it. May get some milliard or caramelization flavors witht he extra boil plus better hop utilization. It is ready to drink pretty quickly...I keg so can't answer the bottling question, but I have kegged mine and generally tap it 30 days after I brew...Cheers!

 

[crusader1612]

Stone does almost all their beers at 90 minutes. Uses more fuel and probably isn't really needed, but I do it because they do it. May get some milliard or caramelization flavors witht he extra boil plus better hop utilization. It is ready to drink pretty quickly...I keg so can't answer the bottling question, but I have kegged mine and generally tap it 30 days after I brew...Cheers!

Awesome cheers dude, I've read a good portion of this thread, and a lot of people reckon the recipe is close but still not quite right. Most day the punch ones from the hops is missing. Just a thought, has anyone tried the existing hop schedule plus an additional hop stand/aroma addition normally added maybe 10mins after the boil is completed

 

[stonebrewer]

I am pretty sure that the hops are fine. The malt is where everyone keeps playing with as they are a little off; not much mind you. This recipe is really close, but does not stand up to a side by side comparison. It might be something silly like they use pils instead of 2-row (doubt it), who knows. This is a fun beer to brew because it challenges you to try new things and think about what ingredients are contributing to the over flavor profile of the beer. Enjoy brewing it! Cheers!!

 

[Hop_Hero]

A big flavor component that is overlooked is Stone's yeast strain.

 

[stonebrewer]

A big flavor component that is overlooked is Stone's yeast strain.

Isn't it close or the same as WLP007? I have had great success with that yeast! Fermentation temperatures do have a dramatic effect on that strain as well...can get the bubble gum flavor like the Cali-Belgique has if you let it ferment at the right temp...

I am thinking about doing this and several other beers with Conan to see what that does. Should be an interesting experiment. May even do something like 5 gallons with 007 and 5 with Conan...

 

[Hop_Hero]

Isn't it close or the same as WLP007? I have had great success with that yeast! Fermentation temperatures do have a dramatic effect on that strain as well...can get the bubble gum flavor like the Cali-Belgique has if you let it ferment at the right temp... I am thinking about doing this and several other beers with Conan to see what that does. Should be an interesting experiment. May even do something like 5 gallons with 007 and 5 with Conan...

007 is close but NOT the same hence the reason most clones are close but not the same.

Cali-bel uses a belgian yeast not stones yeast.