Can this brown ale be cloned?

[RichardM]

I’d like to try and clone my favorite local brown ale. I’m not experienced enough with brewing sw to know if what I’m putting in is correct.

This is a fusion of English and American brown ales.
Abv: 6.4%
IBU: 33
Grains: Pilsner, brown malt, chocolate malt, and crystal 65
Hops: Columbus, East Kent Golding

Is this enough information to create this recipe?
I honestly get lost with trying to fill in water numbers and others.
If so I would like both an all grain for BIB and an extract version.
Thanks

 

[Amadeo38]

There are a couple things I’d like to know before attempting a clone, if it were me. SRM (color) might help determine the ratio to use for the grains you’ve listed. Additionally, either the type or yeast, or the Original Gravity would be helpful.

The great thing about local breweries is that if you go there and ask (after buying a pint), they’ll usually be happy to tell you these details. At the very least, what yeast strain.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For the extract recipe the brown malt will need to be mashed, probably with an equal amount (by weight) of Pilsner malt to ensure conversion.

As for the specialty malts, brown malt generally is less than 10% of the grist and chocolate malt is often used in small amounts for color adjustments.

 

[RichardM]

There are a couple things I’d like to know before attempting a clone, if it were me. SRM (color) might help determine the ratio to use for the grains you’ve listed. Additionally, either the type or yeast, or the Original Gravity would be helpful.

The great thing about local breweries is that if you go there and ask (after buying a pint), they’ll usually be happy to tell you these details. At the very least, what yeast strain.

I don’t know the OG or SRM, but you may be right about the brewery giving it. It has more body than most browns, rich chocolate malty flavor with a slightly hoppy finish. May be closer to a stout than a brown, but is labeled a brown.

 

[kh54s10]

You have enough information for a start, except the yeast strain. You can alter the amounts in a recipe program until you get the right IBU and predicted ABV. Then it may take a dozen or so tries until you get it right.

If you do an extract recipe you will not be able to refine as much since you typically don't know what went into the extract.

Also you do not have to mash the specialty malts in an extract batch. They are steeped for flavor and aroma.

 

[rhys333]

I don’t know the OG or SRM, but you may be right about the brewery giving it. It has more body than most browns, rich chocolate malty flavor with a slightly hoppy finish. May be closer to a stout than a brown, but is labeled a brown.

This helps, as it suggests a lower attenuating English yeast, malt ratios and at least gives an idea of hopping levels. A couple questions for you:

1) Can you detect any fruity flavors coming from the yeast?
2) Is the hoppy finish mostly just bitterness, or does it include a noticeable hop aroma and flavor? If the latter, can you tell if its more floral and spicy (EKG), or more like licorice or perhaps unusual and hard to describe (Columbus)?

 

[rhys333]

As a starting point though, maybe something like the following, and I'm assuming 5.5 gallon batch:

Grain:
79.5% Pils Malt (11.25lbs)
10% C65 (1.4lbs)
6.5% Brown malt (0.9lbs)
4% Chocolate malt (0.6lbs)
Hops:
0.25 Columbus @ 60
EKG & Columbus flavor and aroma hops TBD
Yeast:
WY 1469 West Yorkshire (produces body and stonefruit yeast character), or
WY 1099 Whitbread (lower yeast esters)

60 minute mash @ 153F

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you do an extract recipe you will not be able to refine as much since you typically don't know what went into the extract.

In the (perhaps special) case of Briess malts, they list on their web the base malts that they use for their most of their DME/LME products: http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#PilsenLight.

I'll concede that they don't include mash temperature range. But maybe this doesn't matter.

By assuming that DME/LME does not make a highly ferment-able wort, I've been able to do a lot of recipe design using DME/LME with good results. hint: yeast selection

 

[madscientist451]

What is the brewery and name of the beer? Sometimes, you can get clues from a brewery website abut a recipe, OR email the brewer with questions.
If you go to the brewery and chat up the brewer if you can find him/her, sometimes you can get lots of information.

 

[RichardM]

This helps, as it suggests a lower attenuating English yeast, malt ratios and at least gives an idea of hopping levels. A couple questions for you:

1) Can you detect any fruity flavors coming from the yeast?
2) Is the hoppy finish mostly just bitterness, or does it include a noticeable hop aroma and flavor? If the latter, can you tell if its more floral and spicy (EKG), or more like licorice or perhaps unusual and hard to describe (Columbus)?

The hop flavor is mostly bitter. I don’t get any fruity flavors from the yeast. It could be an American style with an English yeast, but not sure.

 

[RichardM]

What is the brewery and name of the beer? Sometimes, you can get clues from a brewery website abut a recipe, OR email the brewer with questions.
If you go to the brewery and chat up the brewer if you can find him/her, sometimes you can get lots of information.

Rabbit Hole Rapture is what I’m trying for. It’s a staple for them that is found in stores, but on the website it only lists a mystic Rapture that may be a coffee version. It’s by far my favorite brown I’ve had and when poured in a frozen mug it’s almost like a dessert.

 

[ESBrewer]

If you have enough patience and some original beer at hand so that you can do side by side comparisons, so yes, it should be clonable. But do not expect to nail it The first time, you need to brew a couple of batches with modifications. Experience with brewing methods and the nature of the ingredients will help as well as any information on how brown ales are traditionally brewed. You should proably have a look at the BJCP guidelines for brown ales and also try to find any information of how some well known brown ales are brewed. This way you can find the corner stones for the recipe and it is going to be more about minor changes in the amounts of ingredients and the process to get the exact taste you are looking for.

 

[madscientist451]

Rabbit Hole Rapture is what I’m trying for.

Clone recipe:
http://brewgr.com/recipe/52565/rabbit-hole-rapture-clone-recipe

And a kit:
https://www.txbrewing.com/rapture-all-grain-beer-recipe-kit.html

 

[rhys333]

Clone recipe:
http://brewgr.com/recipe/52565/rabbit-hole-rapture-clone-recipe

And a kit:
https://www.txbrewing.com/rapture-all-grain-beer-recipe-kit.html

My guess at the grain bill percentages was reasonably close, going by that first clone recipe. Different abv though.

 

[Amadeo38]

My guess at the grain bill percentages was reasonably close, going by that first clone recipe. Different abv though.

I was thinking that “clone recipe” was just created by the poster, given that the abv, ibu, and hops were incorrect. IMO, your attempt is closer.

 

[RichardM]

Clone recipe:
http://brewgr.com/recipe/52565/rabbit-hole-rapture-clone-recipe

And a kit:
https://www.txbrewing.com/rapture-all-grain-beer-recipe-kit.html

Thanks, guess I should have just googled it.

 

[madscientist451]

I was thinking that “clone recipe” was just created by the poster, given that the abv, ibu, and hops were incorrect. IMO, your attempt is closer.

Where did you find out what IBU and hops they use?
I looked around and can't find anything.
The Brewery website doesn't give any stats.
The label image on the internet is hard to read but I think it says 6.4% ABV.
The "clone" recipe above is 5.6, I believe.

There's a podcast with the brewer/owner and they discuss the rapture beer, I haven't had time to listen to it yet:
http://www.brewstyles.com/rabbit-hole-brewing/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Where did you find out what IBU and hops they use?
I looked around and can't find anything.
The Brewery website doesn't give any stats.
The label image on the internet is hard to read but I think it says 6.4% ABV.
The "clone" recipe above is 5.6, I believe.

There's a podcast with the brewer/owner and they discuss the rapture beer, I haven't had time to listen to it yet:
http://www.brewstyles.com/rabbit-hole-brewing/

I had not considered using google image search to read cans or tap lists. So I gave it a try and found a couple of images that look like tap lists at the brewery.

This one https://istopforhops.com/2017/05/25/rabbit-hole-brewing-justin-tx/ was easy to read: ABV of 6.4%

And thanks for the link to brewstyles.com!

 

[madscientist451]

The taplist also shows the IBU at 33....
The pieces sometimes come together slowly.

 

[RichardM]

Where did you find out what IBU and hops they use?
I looked around and can't find anything.
The Brewery website doesn't give any stats.
The label image on the internet is hard to read but I think it says 6.4% ABV.
The "clone" recipe above is 5.6, I believe.

There's a podcast with the brewer/owner and they discuss the rapture beer, I haven't had time to listen to it yet:
http://www.brewstyles.com/rabbit-hole-brewing/

I got it off a card on a table at a beer fest they were serving at. It listed the abv, ibu's, grains and hops, but not the og or srm. Each of their beers had it's own card with a description and info.

 

[RichardM]

The txbrewing clone recipe list it with a og of 1.059 and an abv of 4-6.5%.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I got it off a card on a table at a beer fest they were serving at. It listed the abv, ibu's, grains and hop
s, but not the og or srm. Each of their beers had it's own card with a description and info.

Was the card similar to the card in the photo shown here:
https://escapehatchdallas.com/2014/11/rabbit-brewing-intros/ ?

 

[RichardM]

Was the card similar to the card in the photo shown here:
https://escapehatchdallas.com/2014/11/rabbit-brewing-intros/ ?

Yes it was.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks.

I was able to listen to the section of the podcast over the last couple of days. The descriptions that they used during the tasting section should be helpful in "calibrating" with the original and comparing the "clone" to the original.

The podcast did mention that both American and British malts were used (So maybe American pilser for the base malt, and British malts for the others?).

It's definitely worth a listen if you want to try to reproduce this beer.