Can I upgrade typical march pump to HF?

[RapidRuss]

Egbert, i've got a close friend just out of Wirtz Va. heading to Smith lake plus he likes bier and hot rods.
Once you get your brewery running it would be great to show him the process.

Carl you have that rig of yours done yet ? I wanna bring a 55 gallon drum out there in back of the truck, and filler up for the trip back down south ! BTW, Buddy, Thanks for the Big Jug of Canadian Mist for Christmas ! It went down smooth as Silk too...and no Hangover !

 

[BrewBeemer]

Not yet Russ I need my back rebuilt first then win the lottery.
BTW welcome aboard.
You need to touch base with Egbert over in your neck of the woods.
Two fer three where's LCG?
Prost bro now where's my damn bier?

 

[RapidRuss]

Well i think I need to find a book on this and sit down for a month and absorb it all.. Dealing with one of these space age pressure cookers isnt as easy and building a 700hp 428 Cobra motor ! But I think they cost about the same ?

Glenn needs to learn how to make that stuff we have out here in Franklin County ! As we know he likes his High Spirits ! about the same effect as if I went down to the sonoco station an bought a gallon of 116 race fuel..

Carl if I had your money...I'd burn Glenns !!

 

[Egbert]

Well i think I need to find a book on this and sit down for a month and absorb it all.. Dealing with one of these space age pressure cookers isnt as easy and building a 700hp 428 Cobra motor ! But I think they cost about the same ?

Glenn needs to learn how to make that stuff we have out here in Franklin County ! As we know he likes his High Spirits ! about the same effect as if I went down to the sonoco station an bought a gallon of 116 race fuel..

Carl if I had your money...I'd burn Glenns !!

Hey, Russ, PM me.
We commonly do open brew sessions with people stopping in and, I currently don't have a brew partner. It's a lot easier than rebuilding a carb.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I've had issues at higher temps and need a little more power behind it. Especially for <30 bucks!

With the standard impeller in the Chugger pump I have impeller tip to pump body clearance of .365", with the HF impeller .127".
I find the larger impeller the pump has a better chance to purge out the small air pockets with catching and running vs a lost prime.
With reduced primes loss when you need the pump, quicker primes catching itself with an increased pressure from 5.22 to 8.035 psi what's not to like for a $19 investment? Compared vs the initial cost of the pump this is the best bang for the buck improvement.

 

[RapidRuss]

Hey, Russ, PM me.
We commonly do open brew sessions with people stopping in and, I currently don't have a brew partner. It's a lot easier than rebuilding a carb.

EgBert,

I tried to PM you this morning about 5am..wrote a nice little novel..come to find out your big PM file was full...So my letter went nowhere..and nowhere to store it either..

On topic now...Carl, I think you hit the nail right on the head..Plus the pump wouldnt have to work as hard to do a better job !

Russ

 

[rshosted]

I haven't had a chance to test this, but I can't help but believe this is going to substantially reduce the problems I've encountered with my 809 pump.

What problems? I've read all about how to 'avoid' said problems so please do not post how to 'fix' my problems (I've been working on them for years with no luck )

I've had a problem sparging at extremely high temps (200*F+) when trying to raise the temperature of my grainbed. The problem (as I see it) is the water begins to boil and release steam, and loses flow from cavitation.

I also have tried to pump from a lower pot to a higher pot (5' up) and find when the 15 gallon pot is close to full it just doesn't have enough 'umph' to get it full when filling via the ball valve at the bottom (yes, I realize it would be working against more pressure from the water in the pot). I'm a little sensitive about pump advice because I've received some 'colorful' advice from others already.

So that being said, I am VERY hopeful that this will help, ALOT. Just from looking at it before, I thought to myself, 'self, why is that impeller so small?' And now, I have the answer... sort of.

Okay enough of my ranting. Here's the pics. This is the stock vs. HF impeller in a regular 809 pump (High speed of course, photographed in the previous posts).

Big difference:

Back side:

Stock impeller in 809:

High flow impeller:

 

[Mojoe4]

I am very interested if this will help or fix your problems. Keep us posted

 

[MrFugglz]

Subscribed! I just got my 809 HS and was putting it thru a dry run to work out the kinks before brew day. Had some challenges getting the pumped primed, orientation of the outlet (pointed up) seemed to help with the flow and getting the air out. I recently finished my two stage chilling system (40 plate wort chiller and a 3/8'' jockey box). I was hopeful, but not surprised, that the throughput was suboptimal. I could benefit from some more power...

Would love to hear how this upgrade worked out for you...

 

[Egbert]

Why do you guys need 2 stage chiilers?
Is your tap water that warm that you can't chill your water to pitch temp with just a counterflow or plate chiller?

Instead of a two stage, if doesn't cool that much, couldn't you just set the plate chiller in salted ice water?

 

[bendavanza]

If anyone finds a good price on these impellers online, please post it. rshosted, thanks for the pics, this explains a lot.

 

[MrFugglz]

Why do you guys need 2 stage chiilers?
Is your tap water that warm that you can't chill your water to pitch temp with just a counterflow or plate chiller?

Instead of a two stage, if doesn't cool that much, couldn't you just set the plate chiller in salted ice water?

My H2O temp in the winter is around 40F, so no problems there. But, in the summer months it hits up to 70F on hot days... I try to get my wort for lagers down to 50-55F before adding my yeast slurry. I believe most off flavors are generated during the lag phase of yeast propagation.

To you other point, a plate chiller's heat exchange occurs at the point of contact (i.e., between the plates and not the entire casing). I tried the ice bath and got less than 5 degrees benefit. It may have gotten better over a longer period, but time is of the essence... Plus, let's face it; another gadget to build!!!

Would advise skipping salt completely, don't want to expose one of my most expensive pieces of equipment to unnecessary corrosion.

 

[Egbert]

Yeah, if your tap water is that warm in the summer, there certainly wold be a need to knock it down more.

Salt water onto Stainless for that small period of time wouldn't phase it, you're going to rinse it and clean it afterwards anyway.

 

[MrFugglz]

Yeah, if your tap water is that warm in the summer, there certainly wold be a need to knock it down more.

Salt water onto Stainless for that small period of time wouldn't phase it, you're going to rinse it and clean it afterwards anyway.

My jockey box is stainless and my wort chiller is copper. Regardless, you're probably right, just being overly cautious I guess...

 

[RonRock]

If anyone finds a good price on these impellers online, please post it. rshosted, thanks for the pics, this explains a lot.

+1 I'll try a couple.

 

[MrFugglz]

I just ordered my upgraded impeller from my local distributor. $24 and 2/3 weeks delivery time. I'll post the results once I make the upgrade.

 

[Mojoe4]

I ordered mine from these guys last week

http://www.pumpagents.com/cgi-bin/store.pl

Cost me $24 plus some shipping. Now I see they want $35 and only have one in stock.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I ordered mine from these guys last week

http://www.pumpagents.com/cgi-bin/store.pl

Cost me $24 plus some shipping. Now I see they want $35 and only have one in stock.

Wow, I paid $19 for the HF impeller no shipping as it was 6 miles away.
I had to wait three weeks as they had to build up a larger order from March, no biggie I can wait. A super nice family run business handling March pumps and parts here on the left coast.

 

[RonRock]

So does this make a big difference in the pump? I would think it would. But has anybody used the new impeller yet?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Ron, I have a couple empty kegs plus a white plastic 55 gallon drum I was going to measure flow volumes including different head elevations loading down both impellers in my Chugger pump. Health failure reasons with the back have delayed many projects. I also have another idea needing machining and testing before I spout off of any more improved performance.
Working with what I have what the heck failed ideas are cheap, knowledge is
priceless.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks BBeemer. I am of the guessing that the larger impeller would most certainly make a difference in the pumps ability. I only wish that the larger impeller was more readily available. The price you paid makes the impeller a no brain'r, but what I have been able to find makes it a bit more of an investment. I have 3 March's now, if this works I'd change them all.

Just another on my long list of improvements. Maybe some day I'll actually brew some beer on my brewstand.


Cheers

 

[BrewBeemer]

Dummy me sold the old brewery to a longtime friend moving out of state, how was I to know a massive back injury was to happen later?
Stuck at home without a brewery not able to build the next "better one", oh well this gives me more time to think and add more ideas to it.

I'd call around different March distributors in your area, hell I might of got lucky as they quoted me $19 plus $10.40 a spare March SS pump end cover.
This a test to see if the SS had different magnetic shielding properties March vs Chugger, nope both the same in shielding the magnetic pull.
One thing the March impeller magnet is full width strong in pull vs narrower on the Chugger magnet. This alone besides longer impeller arms of the March HF is a win win for me with my future pump modification plans.
Yes I will take notes of the changes be it better or worse in performance.

 

[RapidRuss]

Dummy me sold the old brewery to a longtime friend moving out of state, how was I to know a massive back injury was to happen later?
Stuck at home without a brewery not able to build the next "better one", oh well this gives me more time to think and add more ideas to it.

I'd call around different March distributors in your area, hell I might of got lucky as they quoted me $19 plus $10.40 a spare March SS pump end cover.
This a test to see if the SS had different magnetic shielding properties March vs Chugger, nope both the same in shielding the magnetic pull.
One thing the March impeller magnet is full width strong in pull vs narrower on the Chugger magnet. This alone besides longer impeller arms of the March HF is a win win for me with my future pump modification plans.
Yes I will take notes of the changes be it better or worse in performance.

Carl, Just get that Dad Gum thing done so we can drink from it ? I'am getting awful thirsty here.. Just Run a CSR BBF pump on there..It'll get the brew flowing at 35GPM.....>o&o>

 

[MrFugglz]

The results are in! I picked up my impeller and ran a before and after trial. The installation is extremely easy. You remove a total of 8 screws (4 phillips screws on the front face of the pump head and 4 flathead screws to gain access to the impeller). I observed both a visual increase in flow with the upgraded impeller, as well as a better vortex with my whirlpool tube in my BK.

Here is a summary of my results, using 5 gallons of water, with about 4 feet of vertical and 2 x 3ft 1/2'' tubing.

Standard Impeller Upgraded Impeller
Trial #1 01:07.9 00:43.6
Trial #2 01:01.3 00:48.8
Trial #3 01:08.5 00:50.1
Trial #4 01:05.7 00:53.5
Trial #5 01:05.8 00:49.0
Average 66 sec 49 sec
Gal / Min 4.56 6.12
% Increase 34%

All in all, worth the $29.

 

[RonRock]

34% increase sounds like a great improvement on flow. Thanks for the effort. Still wondering how the larger impeller will effect priming. I would think it would have to help. Larger impeller leaves less room in the pump for air bubbles to cause cavitation. Along with moving more water.

 

[BrewBeemer]

34% increase sounds like a great improvement on flow. Thanks for the effort. Still wondering how the larger impeller will effect priming. I would think it would have to help. Larger impeller leaves less room in the pump for air bubbles to cause cavitation. Along with moving more water.

Remember, that HF impeller increases the max head height from 12.1' to 18.6' or from 5.3 psi to 8.01 psi. I may be off a couple hundrenths working off memory here. This added pressure should help overcome the long CFC runs as the flow resistance adds up.

 

[MrFugglz]

I forgot to add the picture. You can see the difference in size, using the screw driver as a point of reference. Why they don't make that the stock impeller on the HF series is beyond me.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

The HF impeller (The larger on in the pic above) actually has a stronger magnet then the standard 809 impellers do. All these pump were orriginaly designed for specific applications and have since been used for so many variations that over the years we have made them more or less fool proof to the point we now have. The reason for the smaller impeller on the HS models is that the motor spins at 3400RPM and places a bigger stress load on the magnetic coupling. For us, not knowing where the pump may be used we gave it a smaller impeller so the pump is less likely to de-couple. For water type applications you could use the bigger impeller out of the standard 809 (slow speed 1750rpm) and never have a problem......but once you put something heavier into the pump then the mag-drive would de-couple and you would be on the phone with us complaining!

-Walter

 

[MrFugglz]

The HF impeller (The larger on in the pic above) actually has a stronger magnet then the standard 809 impellers do. All these pump were orriginaly designed for specific applications and have since been used for so many variations that over the years we have made them more or less fool proof to the point we now have. The reason for the smaller impeller on the HS models is that the motor spins at 3400RPM and places a bigger stress load on the magnetic coupling. For us, not knowing where the pump may be used we gave it a smaller impeller so the pump is less likely to de-couple. For water type applications you could use the bigger impeller out of the standard 809 (slow speed 1750rpm) and never have a problem......but once you put something heavier into the pump then the mag-drive would de-couple and you would be on the phone with us complaining!

-Walter

Thanks for the info Walter, it makes sense.. I am guessing that 90% of the applications used with this pump are water based, but could be completely off my rocker. If that were the case, it would make more sense to have this as the standard impeller and offer the smaller one as a option. I also wish it was also easier to obtain the upgraded impeller, perhaps some suave on-line HBS will start stocking them.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

You would be surprised at where these pumps end up. I have them on school buses pumping glycol. They are in french fry machines circulating hot oil. In dairy farms pumping milk. Home radiant flooring systems. Solar hot water systems. Industrial cutting machines pumping cutting oils. X-ray machines. Some starnge and cool places....but point being that instead of making a custom pump for each application its easier to make the pump fit a wider variety of uses. Just like when they make your car...the engine is tuned for economy and the trans is tuned for a soft shift. But when you and i get the car we change thing to suit out needs and the custome tune goes into the computer and a shift kit goes into the trans and we have it the way we want it!

-Walter