Can I make and split a yeast starter indefinitely?

[Dhagey90]

I know how to wash yeast from a fermented batch of beer from reading online thoroughly. I have not done it yet though. I’m currently making a starter with a stir plate and a 2L flask. I’m wondering if I could just make a 2L starter, pitch half of it and put the other half safely in the fridge. Then use the 1L I saved to make another 2L of yeast starter then repeat later. Im somewhat new to home brewing and right now I’m making the same recipe frequently because it turns out good.

I tried searching multiple different phrases concerning splitting a yeast starter and all I could find was articles and posts on washing yeast. I’m starting to think it’s going to be easier and less time consuming to just wash my yeast if I’m making the same beer over and over again instead of making a starter every time.

Thanks for any help.

 

[day_trippr]

Hello, @Dhagey90, and welcome to the forums at homebrewtalk!

The technique you describe is often referred to as "overbuilt starter" with the excess needed to pitch stored for the next starter cycle and batch.
Lots of us have been doing this, for both cost savings and convenience of having strains available to grow and pitch.
At my peak I was "farming" 10 strains via overbuilds (since dropped down to four for awhile).
As long as you are solid on sanitation - and take note that some strains take longer to flocculate and you want to capture those cells as well as the fast sinkers - you can keep things going for a long time - well into a couple/few years with frequent cycling...

Cheers!

 

[Dhagey90]

Thanks glad to finally make an account.

Ok great thanks! Now that I know the term I can research some more them test it out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome to HBT!
You found the best place...

Here are a few pointers:
Don't boil extract/wort in your flask! It will crack, sooner or later.
Instead, use a clean kitchen pot with a well fitting lid. Stainless is my preference.
Chill that pot in the sink or plastic tub with cold water. When chilled, pour the starter wort into your sanitized flask and add the yeast. You may want to keep a little starter wort behind to rinse out the yeast pack, and add it.

Use a pitch and yeast starter calculator:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
Mr. Malty - The "pitch from slurry" tab is the only one of its kind, and indispensable for that.

 

[day_trippr]

Excellent advise - I do exactly that to avoid any chance of incurring The Wrath Of The Spousal Unit
And I've become a fan of the Homebrew Dad calculator as well as it offers the "overbuild" feature that the otherwise excellent Brewer's Friend starter calculator lacks.

Wrt ranching overbuilds vs storing yeast cake from batches, I've always felt the latter gets one closer to developing a "house strain" through the myriad influences of complex wort and hops, where the former starts closer to the original "store bought" characteristics and may run "truer" in subsequent batches...

Cheers!

 

[Dhagey90]

I was going to ask about the difference between making an oversized starter and harvesting yeast from the fermenter. That helps answer that.

From what I understand, having a yeast slurry with an ABV of some percentage can help keep it from becoming infected. Most harvested yeast from the fermenter has this. So will an oversized yeast starter have some sort of alcohol content or does the yeast mostly just multiply and not consume the sugar to create alcohol like in a batch fermentation?

 

[Gavin C]

Use a flask.

If you have a borosilicate one they are designed to be heated.

No boil-overs ever if you do it this way

 

[Dhagey90]

I use a Pyrex brand flask, I literally just read that article about the Fermcap S and I’m looking it up to buy now.

 

[day_trippr]

Hahaha! I bought the wife a brand new kitchen and dining room two years ago and would not even consider heating a flask on the gas range lest something tragic happen and I suffer beau coupe consequences

My method extends @IslandLizard's process - I bring the water to a boil in a pot, then set the pot in the sink, stir in a couple of drops of Fermcap, then add the DME, lid the pot, and start filling the sink to water-bath chill it to pitching temperature. Then I add the yeast to the sanitized flask and pour in the wort, using the last bit of wort to rinse out the mason jar the yeast came from.

Nearly zero chance of farking up Her Kitchen. That's priority one

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

My method extends @IslandLizard's process - I bring the water to a boil in a pot, then set the pot in the sink, stir in a couple of drops of Fermcap, then add the DME, lid the pot, and start filling the sink to water-bath chill it to pitching temperature. Then I add the yeast to the sanitized flask and pour in the wort, using the last bit of wort to rinse out the mason jar the yeast came from.

So you never boil the extract... it should pasteurize at those temps.

Here's my workflow:
Bring the water to a boil with some nutrients, the DME, and 1 drop of Fermcap-S. 1 drop per gallon (or partial gallon) is enough.
Stir until all DME has dissolved, then simmer it on low heat with the lid on, for a minute. I check by lifting the lid to make sure it's boiling/simmering.
Then put in the cold water to chill.
A metal pot will chill much faster than a glass flask.
And I can bang that pot around all I want, it won't crack.

I've seen pictures and threads about flasks cracked on a stove in a puddle of half dissolved DME. It's not pretty.

 

[day_trippr]

Pasteurization happens almost instantaneously at near-boiling temperatures - like, .5 seconds at 195°F.
No need to actually boil the DME - it's not like it's going to pasteurize it more...

Cheers!

 

[Gavin C]

I use a Pyrex brand flask, I literally just read that article about the Fermcap S and I’m looking it up to buy now.

Not all Pyrex is created equal.

If you get yourself lab-grade borosilicate you can heat it safely on a naked flame and plunge it into an ice bath straight off the flame. No fear whatsoever of it breaking from thermal shock. Done it countless times. The right tool for the job is key.

Don't trust Pyrex brand alone as it may not be what you want. It's got to be borosilicate glass.

Don't heat it on an electric stove (uneven heating may result in a mess), flame is what you need, and don't try using it as a club and it will outlive you.

A good quality borosilicate flask is a tried and tested idiot proof tool for heating stuff over a flame and cooling the same stuff rapidly.

 

[Jako]

good question, i was thinking something similar. but for my situation i plan on splinting a new yeast pack so i can pitch most of the starter into High gravity wort or hoppy beers and not have to worry much about cleaning yeast or pitching stressed over work yeast into my next batch.

 

[IslandLizard]

Pasteurization happens almost instantaneously at near-boiling temperatures - like, .5 seconds at 195°F.
No need to actually boil the DME - it's not like it's going to pasteurize it more...

The 1 minute simmer is mostly for steam pasteurizing the headspace in the pot and lid. It may be overkill, but I don't mind spending the extra few minutes on it.

I'm never waiting for it to chill either. There are many other things to do during that time...

 

[IslandLizard]

good question, i was thinking something similar. but for my situation i plan on splinting a new yeast pack so i can pitch most of the starter into High gravity wort or hoppy beers and not have to worry much about cleaning yeast or pitching stressed over work yeast into my next batch.

I think it's more productive to make a starter from the whole pack first. Then split that in 2 (or 3) and make a larger starter from each of the fractions when needed. That way you start out with more cells to propagate from.

 

[day_trippr]

The 1 minute simmer is mostly for steam pasteurizing the headspace in the pot and lid.[...]

Right. I get the same effect just bringing the plain water to a lidded boil first...

Cheers!

 

[Dhagey90]

I forgot about adding the malt before letting it get to a boil, almost made a big mess and it all clumped up. Was a pain to get it mixed in. Took a while to chilll in the glass too because glass doesn’t transfer heat well. I’ll chill in the pot next time.

 

[rgraville]

Honey is naturally resistant to infection and therefore does not need boiled/pasteurized. If using properly filtered water skipping the boiling process can leave more oxygen in the starter for better propogation.
Add in a bit of GoFerm to add nutrients that honey does not contain (but malt does) and one should be good to go.

 

[Dhagey90]

Forgot about using bottles spring water. Much easier than having to boil and chill. Is honey with the nutrients as cost effective as the dry malt? I never buy honey. Don’t think I ever have.

 

[IslandLizard]

Forgot about using bottles spring water. Much easier than having to boil and chill.

I've heard people doing that, but jeez, no pasteurization at all? At least sanitize the bottle and opening before pouring it out.

 

[IslandLizard]

To get back yo your original question.
Of course you can repitch harvested yeast from a previous batch. Use about 1/5 to 1/4 of that yeast cake of a batch of similar size and gravity, as it has grown 4-5 times in quantity.

There is no need to "wash" (rinse is actually the correct term here, unless you use an acid) to separate the yeast from the trub. You could pitch as is. Just keep excellent sanitation.

 

[Dhagey90]

Thanks, it sounds easier to harvest the yeast rather than making a starter from previous starters again each time.

 

[Mutant]

I have used the "overbuilt starter" strategy. This past weekend, I pulled out some WLP810 that was over a year old and built it up to make three different 5 gallon brews. The first flask I saved off some and put in my yeast kegerator, some into another flask for the 2nd beer, and the rest into keg #1 (ferment under pressure). Then took flask #2 and put into a 3rd flask and keg #2. Thus, I have Vienna Lager, Intl Dark Lager and Marzen all fermenting one day apart in the same kegerator at the same temperature.

 

[duncan.brown]

I overbuild starters and save the yeast in 250 ml borosilicate media bottles:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008DI5VHS/
The bottles cost about the same as a Wyeast smack pack and can be used over and over again. You can sanitize them, or they can be sterilized in a pressure canner (I use a canner for making starter wort). I fill the bottle up to the neck, screw the lid on tight, and then don’t worry about them exploding in my fridge from any residual off-gassing.

 

[Dhagey90]

Are they rated for pressure or something?

 

[Mutant]

I overbuild starters and save the yeast in 250 ml borosilicate media bottles:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008DI5VHS/
The bottles cost about the same as a Wyeast smack pack and can be used over and over again. You can sanitize them, or they can be sterilized in a pressure canner (I use a canner for making starter wort). I fill the bottle up to the neck, screw the lid on tight, and then don’t worry about them exploding in my fridge from any residual off-gassing.

Be careful. I do similar but use 500ml. I had 3 bottles touch the back of a kegerator. They froze and cracked the bottles. The kegerator's temp was just shy of 40F, but the that plate in the back freezes anything that touches it.

 

[Dhagey90]

Do you have a link to the 500ml ones?

 

[Mutant]

Do you have a link to the 500ml ones?

WilliamsBrewing.com

 

[Mutant]

Do you have a link to the 500ml ones?

I also have the 250ml, but the shape makes it hard to apply blue tape (what I use to label them). I think the 250ml came from Amazon

 

[Mutant]

WilliamsBrewing.com

These cost (I think) $10 each.

 

[duncan.brown]

Most standard lab glass products can take pressure up to 25-30 PSI, so as long as you’ve fermented out almost all of the sugar in the starter, the rating of decent borosilicate glass should be plenty for any off gassing. Mason jars have hardly any pressure rating, so you either need a pickle pipe, or make sure the lid is loose.

However, freezing the liquid can generate thousands of PSI as the water expends, so yeah be careful not to do that in any container!

 

[Mutant]

Do you have a link to the 500ml ones?

Last weekend I pulled a bottle of WLP810 that was over a year old. I spun it back to life and made three five gallon kegs of lager - Intl Dark, Vienna and Marzen. They are sitting in kegerator at 50F fermenting. I saved off the WLP810 for the next time.

 

[duncan.brown]

the shape makes it hard to apply blue tape (what I use to label them)

I cut my blue tape into little squares

 

[Mutant]

I cut my blue tape into little squares

My 250ml look like a flask (fat at bottom skinny at top) - that makes it difficult

 

[Nate R]

Hey @Dhagey90 ... if it helps, and you can spare the extra few bucks... i have gone the lazy man way and buy Propper Starter canned wort. You store them in a closet. You sanitize the lid, add that to your flask, add distilled water to the can, swirl, add that to your flask. Viola! Done. Add your yeast and you are done.
No dme, no boiling, no cooling. Much lower chances for messes and cracks and burns.
The cans run from $3.00 to $5.00 a can. It depends on where you get them. 1 can makes 1L of 1.040 starter wort with nutrients already in it.
Buy it by the case and save. Lhbs have it. Morebeer does too as well as many online stores.
Northern brewer has a cheaper option but it is never in stock!!
Pricey but easier. Like getting milk at 7-11 vs a mega cheapo mart.

 

[Dhagey90]

I will try that. My local shop takes 3 to 4 days to pick up and order so I’ll wait until things are more normal. It certainly is a lot faster and easier. I am off work due to an injury so I have time to burn. I’m trying to find ways to do things as cheap as possible for 5 gallon batches so that when I move up in size I can be as cost efficient as possible.

 

[brewgar]

@Gavin C

As I live and breath, it's Gavin C! Long time no see. Welcome back to the Forum. Hope you are well and thriving. I've made several of the beers you published on this site, and they have been very good.

 

[duncan.brown]

i have gone the lazy man way and buy Propper Starter canned wort

Or you can start pressure canning wort. You'll need a pressure canner like the All American 15 Quart Pressure Canner or All American 21 Quart Pressure Canner which can fit seven quart mason jars per run. The up front cost of a canner and 36 jars is $338. After you spend the better part of a day pressure canning, 6 lbs of DME and 36 mason lids ($60) gets you 36 quart jars of starter wort at $1.70/jar.

MoreBeer retails Propper Starter for $3.50/can in four packs. To break even with a pressure canning setup, you need to make 178 starters...

Of course, you also have a pressure canner which can be used for other things, but YMMV when factoring that into the economics. Cheaper canners are also available, but make sure they can do 15 lbs / 250 F to sterilize the wort. You can also use grain rather than DME, which brings the cost down slightly, but is more effort.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I use around 75% of the sludge in the FV to start the next brew - usually within two or three days. I "start" it with bottles water, a tip of vitamin C and nutrient and 2 teaspoons of grewing sugar. After a maximum of three re-uses I start again with a sachet of dried yeast. For my current brew - a 3.8% SMASH beer 13 litres was started with sludge, 9 litres with a full sachet of safale 05 ( I normally use safale 04)

 

[Nate R]

Or you can start pressure canning wort. You'll need a pressure canner like the All American 15 Quart Pressure Canner or All American 21 Quart Pressure Canner which can fit seven quart mason jars per run. The up front cost of a canner and 36 jars is $338. After you spend the better part of a day pressure canning, 6 lbs of DME and 36 mason lids ($60) gets you 36 quart jars of starter wort at $1.70/jar.

MoreBeer retails Propper Starter for $3.50/can in four packs. To break even with a pressure canning setup, you need to make 178 starters...

Of course, you also have a pressure canner which can be used for other things, but YMMV when factoring that into the economics. Cheaper canners are also available, but make sure they can do 15 lbs / 250 F to sterilize the wort. You can also use grain rather than DME, which brings the cost down slightly, but is more effort.

Does the pessure canning process help remove any potential infections? That is, if clean & sanitize fully as normal, will the temp, time, & pressure help kill any other "bugs" that may have gotten in to my wort?