Can I ferment stouts at 57 degrees?

[DlALTONE]

I got a wine cooler to control my fermenting temperature but was bummed to find out my wine Cooler only goes as high as 57 degrees. Can I ferment at this temp? Thanks

 

[passedpawn]

Sure. Use a lager yeast. I've done this with an Oatmeal Stout.

 

[DlALTONE]

Will I have issues if I use a non lager yeast? Will the lager yeast affect my taste? I know it's a different strain that ferments at a lower temp but am not sure how this will affect stouts. Also will the bottom fermenting affect anything? Thanks again

 

[Yooper]

Will I have issues if I use a non lager yeast? Will the lager yeast affect my taste? I know it's a different strain that ferments at a lower temp but am not sure how this will affect stouts. Also will the bottom fermenting affect anything? Thanks again

Some ale strains will go dormant at that temperature. Nottingham yeast should work at 57 degrees, as that is about the bottom temperature for it. Pacman yeast will do it, too, but make sure you use a big starter if you're using liquid yeast!

 

[DlALTONE]

Will lager yeast affect my stout taste at all?

 

[pjj2ba]

Yes, but less than it would other lighter styles. You won't get as many esters, or at least the esters will be diferent

 

[SickTransitMundus]

An aftermarket temperature controller should let you set the cooler to whatever temperature you like. I use these:

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_40_366&products_id=1214

+1 for pacman though. You could also try California Common or Kolsch yeasts but they wouldn't be too appropriate for stouts.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=131
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=144

 

[DlALTONE]

I am using White Labs Irish Ale Liquid Yeast WL004 which has a suggested fermentation temperature of 65-68 °F. Do you think I would be alright using a big starter on this at 57 degrees?

For the long term solution, I am having trouble deciding if I want to buy the temperature controller or if I should just switch to lower temp yeasts. I wish I was more familiar with the taste characteristics of the lager yeast on stouts, I am afraid it may be for the worse. I do know that stouts tend to hide off flavors more than lighter beers. Hmmmmm, any thoughts?

 

[Yooper]

I am using White Labs Irish Ale Liquid Yeast WL004 which has a suggested fermentation temperature of 65-68 °F. Do you think I would be alright using a big starter on this at 57 degrees?

For the long term solution, I am having trouble deciding if I want to buy the temperature controller or if I should just switch to lower temp yeasts. I wish I was more familiar with the taste characteristics of the lager yeast on stouts, I am afraid it may be for the worse. I do know that stouts tend to hide off flavors more than lighter beers. Hmmmmm, any thoughts?

No, you'd be too far under the fermentation temperature to be assured of good attenuation.

Lager yeast will work, but you would have less esters/fruity flavors. In a stout, it'd be ok but for most ales I wouldn't want to do that.

 

[Golddiggie]

Wyeast 1728 won't have any issue at 57F since it's range is 55-75F... The strain works well for stouts, as well as other brews (look at the details, those are the suggested styles for the strain)...

Either pick a yeast for the brew that can handle (without issue) the lower temperatures, or use a temperature controller on the unit to get it into a higher range. IF WL004 can work at 8F lower than listed temperatures, expect it to take longer to ferment. There's also a chance you won't hit your target FG with the brew.

Also refer to Yooper...

 

[jfowler1]

I am using White Labs Irish Ale Liquid Yeast WL004 which has a suggested fermentation temperature of 65-68 °F. Do you think I would be alright using a big starter on this at 57 degrees?

For the long term solution, I am having trouble deciding if I want to buy the temperature controller or if I should just switch to lower temp yeasts. I wish I was more familiar with the taste characteristics of the lager yeast on stouts, I am afraid it may be for the worse. I do know that stouts tend to hide off flavors more than lighter beers. Hmmmmm, any thoughts?

If you ask me, you are going about this "problem" all wrong. Fermenting at 57 degrees is a really nice problem to have.

First of all, it is a mistake to try to find/match a yeast to deal with your temperature restrictions. Instead, always use a yeast that is most appropriate for the style, and dial in a desired temperature (more on that in a bit). This is really just common sense. WLP 004 is a great choice, but it needs to be in its happy zone (and 57F is not its happy zone, no matter how much yeast you pitch). I think that a cleaner English strain, or a less attenuative American Ale yeast would also have been good choices. For example, Cal Ale V or WLP007 Dry English. Sure, a lager yeast will ferment your beer at 57, but it is far from the ideal choice for the style, and more so, not even the best temperature for that yeast. At that point, you are just compounding problems.

As I said earlier, you have a great "problem". You are able to dedicate a fermentation chamber to your brew house, but it is a little too cold for ales. You are more than half way (cost-wise) to fermentation temperature control; just pick up 3 little items. I strongly suggest a digital Johnson Control, a ferm wrap, and a carboy cap thermowell. Wrap the carboy with the heater, and drop the controller's probe down the thermowell. To be clear, keep the fridge at 57, and use the controller to regulate the heater. Set it for heating at 66 (you have to reset the controller for heating, because factory setting is for cooling) with a 1 degree differential, and come back to it in 3 weeks to find the best beer you have ever made. Anyone who tells you the fermwrap is not enough heat to keep the carboy's temp above ambient is, well, a lying jerk.

This set up will afford you the ability to control and dial in fermentation conditions yourself, rather than just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. You will open up a world of styles, be it a steam beer, english ales, weizens, and if you can get the fridge down to 50, even lagers. Those three little items I mentioned earlier will be the best brewing investments you will ever make.

Joe

 

[Indyking]

I am using White Labs Irish Ale Liquid Yeast WL004 which has a suggested fermentation temperature of 65-68 °F. Do you think I would be alright using a big starter on this at 57 degrees?

I'm curious... what is your room temperature? Do you have a closet or some hidden corner which is cooler in your house? 65-68F should be easy to maintain at this time of the year in most locations. Oh wait, I just saw that you live at FL... OK, that might be a problem.

If that is not an option, don't ignore the exothermic nature of fermentation using ale yeasts. You can cool your wort down to around 68F and pitch your yeast. That will assure the yeast get started at its maximum efficiency keeping the wort temperature warm long enough for most attenuation even at 57F inside your wine cooler. As the yeast activity decreases in the face of less sugar available after peak of fermentation, the wort temp will likely drop quickly, so you may not reach full attenuation as part of it, albeit minimum, is obtained in the last stages of fermentation. However, the cooler temps after peak of fermentation may actually improve flavor as that sediment will settle down better at colder temps.

 

[BrewersKaramazov]

Also refer to Yooper...

This would be an excellent way to end every post.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm going to lager all my stouts from now on. I don't want any yeast contribution / esters in there. I like the malts to define the flavors in stouts. Especially with an irish dry stout; I haven't made one of these, but cold fermenting with lager yeast seems ideal to me.

 

[jfowler1]

As the yeast activity decreases in the face of less sugar available after peak of fermentation, the wort temp will likely drop quickly, so you may not reach full attenuation as part of it, albeit minimum, is obtained in the last stages of fermentation. However, the cooler temps after peak of fermentation may actually improve flavor as that sediment will settle down better at colder temps.

You make a good point in that ambient temperatures are really a horrible way to measure fermentation temp. This plays into my post about embracing a cooler ambient temp, and measuring and heating the wort up to fermentation temp with the controller, ferm wrap, and thermowell.

However, I disagree with the last bit from the above post, because I think one of the most important steps in conditioning is allowing the yeast to continue working after fermentation in order to clean-up the bi-products they producted during fermentation. Yes, as fermentation slows, the wort temperature drops. As temperature drops. the yeast activity *******, almost coming to a stop. I ran into this problem when I used to ferment in my basement where ambient temperatures ranged from 57-59 degrees in the fall and winter. I had no problem getting fermentation to start, and once kicking, the thermometer would read in the 66-67 range. As it slowed, everything fell out of solution, temperatures fell back into the high 50's, and the beer was always green, if not also always underattenuated.

By switching to a temperature controlled chamber, I was able to artifically keep temperatures up in the appropriate range for the yeast, even as fermentation activity slowed to a point that it would not have stayed in those temperatures naturally. Rather than quitting and dropping out of solution, the yeast stay warm and will finish their job. The difference it has made in my finished product is beyond measurable.

Joe

 

[Indyking]

However, I disagree with the last bit from the above post, because I think one of the most important steps in conditioning is allowing the yeast to continue working after fermentation in order to clean-up the bi-products they producted during fermentation. Yes, as fermentation slows, the wort temperature drops. As temperature drops. the yeast activity *******, almost coming to a stop. I ran into this problem when I used to ferment in my basement where ambient temperatures ranged from 57-59 degrees in the fall and winter. I had no problem getting fermentation to start, and once kicking, the thermometer would read in the 66-67 range. As it slowed, everything fell out of solution, temperatures fell back into the high 50's, and the beer was always green, if not also always underattenuated.

Joe, that has been a matter of controversy, how much of that conditioning is done by dormant or slow-metabolizing yeast after full attenuation has been reached and last thing I want is to get back to that argument.

For the record, I have had opposite experiences with my brews so far compared to yours, granted I‘m less than 2 years in this hobby. Aging my worts after fermentation at colder room temps has resulted in much better taste in my brews, but you talk about your beer been green in that situation, therefore we may not be talking about the same type of results.

 

[jfowler1]

For the record, I have had opposite experiences with my brews so far compared to yours, granted I‘m less than 2 years in this hobby. Aging my worts after fermentation at colder room temps has resulted in much better taste in my brews, but you talk about your beer been green in that situation, therefore we may not be talking about the same type of results.

Agreed, I'll drop the conditioning argument.

However, for the sake of my own education - the fermentation schedule you mentioned, fermenting warmer, then dropping the temp for conditioning, was the exact same strategy discussed during the Fullers episodes of CYBI as well as the Fullers article in the current BYO.

Fullers (and the CYBI crew) will pitch under fermentation temps, raise to the desiered level, and as soon as the sugar eating is done, drop temps back down for conditioning. There is a mile long thread that was recently started about English Yeast/CYBI/Etc that discusses acheiving great English character by following this same program.

Do you lean on English styles, because appearently, your method (which mirrors Fullers) is supposed to really retain the fruity, traditional characters that you will find in an English pub. People in the other thread actually complained that keeping the beer on the yeast - they way we talk about extended primaries- cleaned things up too much, and they lost a lot of the delicate flavors the yeast had shown at earlier tastings. In other words, the 1.5 week sample was more of what they were looking for than the 3 week sample. If that character is what you are going for, than you may be 100% right in your process, and yes, we were just talking about 2 totally different things.

Thoughts?

Joe

 

[Indyking]

Agreed, I'll drop the conditioning argument.

However, for the sake of my own education - the fermentation schedule you mentioned, fermenting warmer, then dropping the temp for conditioning, was the exact same strategy discussed during the Fullers episodes of CYBI as well as the Fullers article in the current BYO.

Fullers (and the CYBI crew) will pitch under fermentation temps, raise to the desiered level, and as soon as the sugar eating is done, drop temps back down for conditioning. There is a mile long thread that was recently started about English Yeast/CYBI/Etc that discusses acheiving great English character by following this same program.

Do you lean on English styles, because appearently, your method (which mirrors Fullers) is supposed to really retain the fruity, traditional characters that you will find in an English pub. People in the other thread actually complained that keeping the beer on the yeast - they way we talk about extended primaries- cleaned things up too much, and they lost a lot of the delicate flavors the yeast had shown at earlier tastings. In other words, the 1.5 week sample was more of what they were looking for than the 3 week sample. If that character is what you are going for, than you may be 100% right in your process, and yes, we were just talking about 2 totally different things.

Thoughts?

Joe

I think you nailed it. Yes, I'm looking for that character and I do lean on English styles. Somehow keeping that primary too long in warmer temps has not being good for my Ales, that's why I move the fermenter to the cellar (58-62F) after I notice the majority of attenuation is finished. That wouldn't work for very style I'm sure but I like the results in my batches so far. Since the activity of the yeast is markedly reduced once that fermented beer (no longer a wort) is cooled down from 66-70F, (which is my normal peak fermentation temps) to 58-62F, I always questioned how much the yeast cells really contribute to that conditioning. Make sense?

Cheers!

 

[jfowler1]

Makes perfect sense. I think I am going to try a London Porter and a Best Bitter for this winter (never too early to start thinking about these things)- I am strongly considering your method.

My ales are all done with WLP007. I find that at the cold range (65F), with a long, warm primary (3-4 weeks), I can get very good, clean results, and can make American Ales with a character very similar to Stone. I just made an awesome dry stout, fermented just 2 degrees warmer (67F) and got slightly more ester character, even leaving the beer on the yeast for 4 weeks at ferment temps. However, it was no where near the level of esters I get in a traditional British Brew Pub near my house. That pub uses Ringwood, so we are talking apples and oranges from a strain standpoint, but if desired, I bet I could get a more English character from the WLP007 than I currently experience. I think when I try the English styles this winter, I am going to use your tips about cool conditioning.

I am really happy I followed up. I learned something helpful for a future batch, and it shows that sometimes people disagree about something, but completely misunderstood each others point.

Great chat - cheers!
Joe