Can anyone help me increase the body and the sweetness of this beer?

[Elysium]

This is a recipe I have recently brewed.

I'd like it to have a better body...to be more mouthful. I think many people talk about Victory malt, munich malt, carapils, carafoam, dextrin malt (if I am not wrong the last 3 are pretty much the same) and melanoidin malt to do that. Which one of these and how much shall I use to achieve my goal in a 6.6 gallons recipe like this?

Another thing is the sweetness....I am wondering if I should add light crystal malt too? The crystal malt 60L is perfect in it....but I would like a bit more sweetness in it. Any ideas on what malt to use? Btw...I cant get honey malt here....that's why I though of putting some 0.5 lb or another lb of light crystal malt in it....but that might be too much with 1.1 lbs of crystal malt 60L in it already.

By the way....mash temp is 68C (155.5F). This is the constant temp in a 90-min mash.

Any ideas?
Cheers

 

[GrogNerd]

what was mash temp?

maybe go higher?

 

[Elysium]

what was mash temp?

maybe go higher?

mash temp is 68C (155.5F)

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Not exactly sure what you are after but consider replacing 30 % of the MO with Light Munich and adding a .5 # of Carapils.

Don't take offense, but you hops schedule seems really complex. Was this a clone?

 

[Elysium]

Not exactly sure what you are after but consider replacing 30 % of the MO with Light Munich and adding a .5 # of Carapils.

Don't take offense, but you hops schedule seems really complex. Was this a clone?

Nah, no offense. I need information...so, just be honest and tell me what you think I might be doing wrong.

The hop schedule is something I decided to use after a long talk with one expert beer brewer here (Yooper, to be exact ).

The recipe is my creation...it is not a clone.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Nothing wrong...just 5 hop additions, mostly small, is not my cup of tea. I am probably just lazy but three boil additions are about my max.

Either way, there are a lot of ways to accomplish what you desire:

Dextrin powder and some crystal/caramel 10 or 20.
If I remember correctly Belgian Candy Sugar is another way
I am experimenting with Mild Malt as soon as I get it for the mouth feel...see above for sweetness

 

[Elysium]

Nothing wrong...just 5 hop additions, mostly small, is not my cup of tea. I am probably just lazy but three boil additions are about my max.

Either way, there are a lot of ways to accomplish what you desire:

Dextrin powder and some crystal/caramel 10 or 20.
If I remember correctly Belgian Candy Sugar is another way
I am experimenting with Mild Malt as soon as I get it for the mouth feel...see above for sweetness

2 out of 5 is for bitterness. The nugget at 60 and 20. The rest of the additions until the flame-off are for flavour and aroma. I didnt want to put more than 1 oz since we wanted something hoppy.

Thanks for the advice on the malts.....I cant really get dextrin powder here. I think I'll need to use carapils and the lightest caramel I can get is 30. So, I will put caramel malt 30L and 60L.

 

[JLem]

I'm surprised to hear this recipe lacks body - with the MO, 10% crystal malt, and highish mash temp, you seem set up for a pretty thick beer. That said, to add more body and sweetness, I'd increase the mash temp and throw in another 1/2 pound of low lovibond crystal. No need to mess around with other specialty malts unless you are looking for additional malt complexity.

Fwiw, I think your hop schedule looks good - I imagine it is a nice, citrusy pale ale.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

OK, my Redneck Pale Ale was a lot like what you are describing except with a simpler hop profile. It was my house beer for about 8 years.

6 # base malt (for me, American 2-row)
1 # Crystal 30
4 OZ Crystal 90
1 # Carapils

Mash at 155 F

In my case the hops varied by what I had but since I tending to buy Cascade by the 5# bale, you can bet I used a lot of of it...I shot for 25 IBU's.

This is all scaled down from my normal 11 gal batch to a 5 gal batch.

Alternatively I did the following...

4 # 2-Row
3 # Munich light
1 # Carapils
4 OZ Crystal 90

...when I had a lot Munich lying around.

 

[PDX_T]

Most importantly, shorten the mash to 60 minutes or less. Enzyme performance is all relative. Mash only as long as necessary to digest starches.

If you're still having trouble, get the total crystal up to 15%. Carapils or carafoam are not good options, IMO because they will not help you much with sweetness, and the crystal will give plenty of body.

 

[Elysium]

Most importantly, shorten the mash to 60 minutes or less. Enzyme performance is all relative. Mash only as long as necessary to digest starches.

If you're still having trouble, get the total crystal up to 15%. Carapils or carafoam are not good options, IMO because they will not help you much with sweetness, and the crystal will give plenty of body.

Mashing is something I am still learning about. Why is 60 better? I thought 90 extracts more sugar.

 

[Yooper]

Mashing is something I am still learning about. Why is 60 better? I thought 90 extracts more sugar.

No, that recipe probably had conversion in 20 minutes or so! Most people will go to 60, just to make sure it's had time to be done and not have to test for conversion. Going 90 minutes means further debranching of the sugars, so it would give a thinner, drier beer as a result.

If you have iodine, you can do a starch test, but mashing at 155 for 45-60 minutes certainly would be adequate.

 

[Elysium]

No, that recipe probably had conversion in 20 minutes or so! Most people will go to 60, just to make sure it's had time to be done and not have to test for conversion. Going 90 minutes means further debranching of the sugars, so it would give a thinner, drier beer as a result.

If you have iodine, you can do a starch test, but mashing at 155 for 45-60 minutes certainly would be adequate.

Ok, understood.

We always do an iodine test. So, we will just do a 60-min mash next time.

Would you say that we should do an iodine test at 45 mins and if there is full conversion, we should just pull the bag and start the boil?

 

[Calichusetts]

I've mashed at 160 for a full beer but regularly do 158. Works well. There are other specialty grains like oats and barley that can help with a perceived mouthful feel as well.

 

[mattd2]

Stupid question but... have you checked that your thermometer is accurate. I have seen some posts on here where people have found out their thermometers are 10°+. This could be your issue and should be an easy one to confirm.

 

[brewkinger]

Stupid question but... have you checked that your thermometer is accurate. I have seen some posts on here where people have found out their thermometers are 10°+. This could be your issue and should be an easy one to confirm.

+1
You are mashing at 155 and getting a thin beer. Recipe changes look good, but I would def check the accuracy of the thermometer.

 

[GrogNerd]

if it's like mine; the one that came with the burner/kettle combo from Wally World, throw it away

 

[Elysium]

Stupid question but... have you checked that your thermometer is accurate. I have seen some posts on here where people have found out their thermometers are 10°+. This could be your issue and should be an easy one to confirm.

Just got a thermoworks rt301wa. It is well calibrated....just checked it in icebath with its instructions.

 

[IslandLizard]

You got your batch size set at 6.5 gallons. Is that post boil? If so, you are a little thin on ingredients, with an OG of 1.046.

What was your post boil volume and measured OG?

If you want more mouthfeel, I would add at least 0.5 pound of Carapils to your recipe. Stay away from melanoidins in Pale Ales.

 

[Elysium]

You got your batch size set at 6.5 gallons. Is that post boil? If so, you are a little thin on ingredients, with an OG of 1.046.

What was your post boil volume and measured OG?

If you want more mouthfeel, I would add at least 0.5 pound of Carapils to your recipe. Stay away from melanoidins in Pale Ales.

Hey IslandLizard (good name )

The OG is set to 1.046 on purpose. We want a hoppy beer that is not too bitter, nor too strong in alcohol. That creates the problem that we shouldnt put a lot of malt in it....a lot of malt equals to high alcohol obviously. This is why I need extra malt that gives body, and non-fermentable sugars. Carapils will do the magic?

The 6.47 gallons is the amount of liquid that goes eventually into the fermentor (no trub in that, and equipment loss also calculated in it).

 

[Brewdoddy]

The most common reason for thin beer is not enough calcium sulphate in the brewing water and if you are mashing at a higher temperature to retain residual sweetness and still need more sweetness consider using calcium chloride. So perhaps a mixture of calcium sulphate (2/3) and calcium chloride (1/3) to bring out the body and sweetness and at the same time give your yeast the calcium it needs...

Happy brewing !

 

[Elysium]

The most common reason for thin beer is not enough calcium sulphate in the brewing water and if you are mashing at a higher temperature to retain residual sweetness and still need more sweetness consider using calcium chloride. So perhaps a mixture of calcium sulphate (2/3) and calcium chloride (1/3) to bring out the body and sweetness and at the same time give your yeast the calcium it needs...

Happy brewing !

88.7 ppm is the calcium content of my brewing water. I dont know if that's low, okay or high...

Palmer says it should be at 50-150.

 

[PDX_T]

88.7 ppm is the calcium content of my brewing water. I dont know if that's low, okay or high...

Palmer says it should be at 50-150.

That's fine, and I think ion content is a red herring here. Let's focus on the mash. That's the most important. If you do an iodine check at 45 minutes and you have full conversion, proceed to mash out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey IslandLizard (good name )

Thanks! It fits my portrait

The OG is set to 1.046 on purpose. We want a hoppy beer that is not too bitter, nor too strong in alcohol. That creates the problem that we shouldnt put a lot of malt in it....a lot of malt equals to high alcohol obviously. This is why I need extra malt that gives body, and non-fermentable sugars. Carapils will do the magic?

The 6.47 gallons is the amount of liquid that goes eventually into the fermentor (no trub in that, and equipment loss also calculated in it).

Yeah, as soon as I posted it, I thought you may be after lighter ale. I think all the suggestions on mashing and your thermometer check are spot on.

Yet, there is something important about mashing that gets ignored all too often. Lately some threads have been appearing where claims are being made that mash temperature (and even mash duration) are totally insignificant: They all end up with the same wort...

Well, for what it's worth, here's my take: Mash out !.
It is done to preserve your wort profile by stopping all conversion right at that point. Typically the way to do it is by heating up the mash to 168°F as quickly as possible. That denatures the enzymes and stops them from changing the wort profile. It stops them from making more fermentable wort, leaving the longer sugar chains intact. Those give your beer a thicker mouth feel. They also keep your FG higher, and tend to keep your beer sweeter. So you can see there is a balancing act to be performed to make it just right.

If it takes 20-30 minutes to lauter your mash and then another 40 minutes to sparge, that wort is sitting there still converting unless you mash out before lautering.

 

[GrogNerd]

expected OG & FG were 1.046 and 1.010, what were actual readings?

if you got those numbers, 78% attenuation is about right, your problem would be just a matter of bumping up non-fermentables. higher OG doesn't have to mean more ABV%; as long as attenuation is the same, you'll end up at a higher FG with approx same ABV%

if you got lower FG, then your recipe is good, problem is over-attenuation and you'll need to adjust mash time/temp

at least that's what 4 of the 5 voices in my head are telling me & #5 just likes to be contrary

 

[Elysium]

expected OG & FG were 1.046 and 1.010, what were actual readings?

if you got those numbers, 78% attenuation is about right, your problem would be just a matter of bumping up non-fermentables. higher OG doesn't have to mean more ABV%; as long as attenuation is the same, you'll end up at a higher FG with approx same ABV%

if you got lower FG, then your recipe is good, problem is over-attenuation and you'll need to adjust mash time/temp

at least that's what 4 of the 5 voices in my head are telling me & #5 just likes to be contrary

82% is the actual attenuation. I have ended up with FG 1.008.

 

[pjj2ba]

Yooper is correct (and Islandlizard too)

No, that recipe probably had conversion in 20 minutes or so! Most people will go to 60, just to make sure it's had time to be done and not have to test for conversion. Going 90 minutes means further debranching of the sugars, so it would give a thinner, drier beer as a result.

If you have iodine, you can do a starch test, but mashing at 155 for 45-60 minutes certainly would be adequate.

Starches are like trees with all kinds of branches The amylases cut where the branches are straight and don't cleave at the branch points, a different enzyme does that (limit dextrinase). The limit dextrins are the polysaccharides with the straight parts removed (think T and Y shaped molecules). The yeast cannot metabolize these and they provide body in the final product. Limit dextrinase is not as active as the amylases, is much less abundant, but will keep chugging away, converting the limit dextrins into molecules the yeast can eat given enough time.

The most common reason for thin beer is not enough calcium sulphate in the brewing water and if you are mashing at a higher temperature to retain residual sweetness and still need more sweetness consider using calcium chloride. So perhaps a mixture of calcium sulphate (2/3) and calcium chloride (1/3) to bring out the body and sweetness and at the same time give your yeast the calcium it needs...

Happy brewing !

Actually, what you want is more Chloride ions. Sulfate will increase the bitterness of a beer, which it sounds like you don't want. Adding Calcium chloride will "soften" the beer and make it taste more rounded

Oh, and change the yeast!!!!!!!! Use something less attentive. I just kegged up two batches of O'fest this weekend - exactly the same recipe except the yeast strain. One was very malty, and the other had a more pronounced bitterness to it.

 

[Elysium]

Yooper is correct (and Islandlizard too)



Starches are like trees with all kinds of branches The amylases cut where the branches are straight and don't cleave at the branch points, a different enzyme does that (limit dextrinase). The limit dextrins are the polysaccharides with the straight parts removed (think T and Y shaped molecules). The yeast cannot metabolize these and they provide body in the final product. Limit dextrinase is not as active as the amylases, is much less abundant, but will keep chugging away, converting the limit dextrins into molecules the yeast can eat given enough time.



Actually, what you want is more Chloride ions. Sulfate will increase the bitterness of a beer, which it sounds like you don't want. Adding Calcium chloride will "soften" the beer and make it taste more rounded

Oh, and change the yeast!!!!!!!! Use something less attentive. I just kegged up two batches of O'fest this weekend - exactly the same recipe except the yeast strain. One was very malty, and the other had a more pronounced bitterness to it.

I would change the yeast...but the 2 things that are easy to get here are: safale s0-5 and S0-4. The 05 produces esters that we dont like. I guess due to the high fermenting temperature....but I find it difficult to control. S0-5 is grand but attenuates like crazy. What yeast do you think would be great if we like american pale ales and IPAs without the estery flavour?


By the way....this is an chart of the composition of my water profile.

I buy the water in the 3rd column (brand: día).....so I guess I do need calcium chloride that you have mentioned.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Hey IslandLizard (good name )

The OG is set to 1.046 on purpose. We want a hoppy beer that is not too bitter, nor too strong in alcohol. That creates the problem that we shouldnt put a lot of malt in it....a lot of malt equals to high alcohol obviously. This is why I need extra malt that gives body, and non-fermentable sugars. Carapils will do the magic?

The 6.47 gallons is the amount of liquid that goes eventually into the fermentor (no trub in that, and equipment loss also calculated in it).

OK, Carapils IS the magic bullet for the body in this case. I love low alcohol session beers so you are now in my wheelhouse officially. For low gravity you might only start with 1/2 pound but I actually put a pound in all my session beers except the lawn-mower blonde that is designed to be quaffed quickly.

Crystal does add fermentable sugars. Do about a 2/3rds replacement of base malt for light crystal. So add 12 oz of Crystal/Caramel 20/30 and take away 8 oz of base malt. Maybe draw down the Crystal 60 a bit to keep the color in check.