Campden tablet or sulfites to forestall bacterial infection?

[dontman]

I have a Pumpkin ale in secondary right now. When I was racking I decided I wanted to spice up the brew a little so I just added a teaspoon of Pumpkin Pie spice on top of the beer. Yea, I know, make a tea first, shoulda, would if I could go back, but what's done is done.

So its been a week and the last two days I noticed that the carboy has started to offgas again. Meaning the airlock is bubbling. Didn't think much about it until today and I realized that the spice that I dropped on top nows looks like the top of a stagnant pond. You know what I mean? Kind of slimy with encapsulated bubbles in it. So I took a turkey baster and sucked it off. It came up just like snot. Kind of nasty looking as you can imagine.

This worked but I have question:

I know based on the smell and taste that the beer is still okay but I worry that I might have given bacteria a strong enough foothold to contaminate the batch. So what I'm thinking is, I have all these wine sulfites in stock. Could I add some sulfites and kill off any bacteria that might be there? I realize that this will also kill the yeast but I don't care since I'm force carbing in the keg anyway. What do you think?

 

[JVD_X]

Actually, the sulfites will only kill off WILD yeasts and bacteria. The regular yeast should be fine.

 

[dontman]

I have both Potassioum Metabisulphate and Potassium Sorbate. So I could use either one. From what I understand the PS will kill everything including yeast.

So does this sound like a decent idea? Throw a teaspoon of sulfites into the beer now. I plan on kegging it on Sunday or Monday.

I'm usually not one to even think about a batch in progress but this latest development has me a little worried.

 

[dontman]

Bumping the thread because I REALLY need some advice/assistance on this. Help please.

 

[garbs]

I'm also curious about this...

 

[Yooper]

I don't have any answers. I wouldn't think sorbate is necessary- what it does is inhibit yeast reproduction. You don't want to stop things from reproducing, you want to kill them or at least get rid of them.

Sulfites work on wild yeast and bacteria. But I'm not sure how much you could use without flavor but that will do what you need. That's why I don't have much advice, sorry!

 

[dontman]

Thanks Yooper, I was thinking of PM'ing you on this. I figured if anyone knew you would.

I haven't looked at the carboy since Friday morning. I expected to float 2, maybe 3, kegs this weekend and have plenty of space to put this ale but I did not even manage to float 1.

I feel like such a failure.

If I see more evidence of that slime I will probably drop a half teaspoon of sulfites in,that's 1/8th tsp per gallon roughly. Do you think I would be ably to taste that?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper, I was thinking of PM'ing you on this. I figured if anyone knew you would.

I haven't looked at the carboy since Friday morning. I expected to float 2, maybe 3, kegs this weekend and have plenty of space to put this ale but I did not even manage to float 1.

I feel like such a failure.

If I see more evidence of that slime I will probably drop a half teaspoon of sulfites in,that's 1/8th tsp per gallon roughly. Do you think I would be ably to taste that?

Yeah, that's probably overkill. (no pun intended). A typical "dose" for preservation for wine is about 1/4 tsp for 5 gallons, I believe, for approximately 45 ppm. That should be under the taste threshold. I don't know how effective it'll be for killing/controlling the infection, though. A "sanitizing" solution is 2 ounces per one quart water and you use ONE TSP of that per gallon. That's a heavy dose but it's sanitizes the must. That would probably taste bad, though.

The issue with this is that I only have experience with wine. A good thing about using the sulfites in wine is that they dissapate with time. That won't happen in the keg- so whatever sulfites you put in there will stay in there.

I'm at a loss. I'd probaby skip the sulfite, though, and just keg it and get it in the fridge ASAP. Once it's in the fridge, it'll probably slow down the infection.

 

[OldSole]

I've use sulfites to disinfect fruit and I can tell you that it works well. Just add in the recommended ratio for wine must. A drawback you will have is that the sulfites can add a pretty harsh sulfur flavor. They'll need to gas out. It may also prevent any further "cleaning up" that your yeast may/may not have to finish still. I'd rather take the risks of adding sulfite than those of a bacterial infection.

 

[dontman]

I didn't realize that there was such a taste factor on those sulfites since my first ever batch of wine is in the carboy right now.

I have had this in the fridge since Friday and it will be in a fridge for the rest of it's life. I'll see if there has been any growth of the snot patches on top. If not , maybe I'll just relax.

I did think that sulfites aged out. Isn't that why I have to keep adding them to this wine that I am doing to maintain 60 ppm per instructions.

My only issue is that I don't know whether I should get another batch of it going to be ready for Halloween.

 

[Yooper]

I didn't realize that there was such a taste factor on those sulfites since my first ever batch of wine is in the carboy right now.

I have had this in the fridge since Friday and it will be in a fridge for the rest of it's life. I'll see if there has been any growth of the snot patches on top. If not , maybe I'll just relax.

I did think that sulfites aged out. Isn't that why I have to keep adding them to this wine that I am doing to maintain 60 ppm per instructions.

My only issue is that I don't know whether I should get another batch of it going to be ready for Halloween.

Well, sulfites don't really age out. They do disapate with time. But, that's via an airlock or a cork. In a closed keg, I don't think it would disapate much. Also, in the amount you'd need to be effective you'd taste it.

One thought is to go ahead and sulfite it. But leave it in the carboy. That is, rack it into a clean sanitized carboy with the sulfite dissolved in a little water. Then, let it sit for a week or two or even longer. That would give you the advantage of sulfiting, but also allow it to off-gas a little. Then, rack it to a keg. Maybe that would allow some of the sulfites to mellow.

Racking can help get rid of some of the sulfite, so racking to a keg might help.

I really don't know, though- this is all conjecture on my part. Sulfites do have a very unpleasant taste, but most of the time winemakers use it in a low enough dose to be under the taste threshold. This helps protect the wine from oxidation (since 02 can't bind to the wine if so2 is already there) and also a little from infection. The goal in wine is to keep about 50 ppm or so. I have no idea what the taste threshold would be in beer, how much would be effective, etc.

 

[dontman]

Thanks for that very detailed description. This is very helpful also because I am just getting into wine.

Now I understand how I could do this if I decide to. Another thing I am thinking about. I have brewed right around 300 batches now and have never introduced an infection to my equipment. I am worried about that equipment that I will be introducing that infection to if I start racking and kegging etc.

I have about 2 - 2 1/2 weeks before this needs to go into keg.

Thanks again for giving me education on this topic. At least now I can make an informed decision.

 

[mitch171]

Even if you put too much in it will off gas. Metabisulfate works by creating gas that kills anything. I use it in wine making all the time, I also used it in a Porter I was worried about. So if the amount you put in creates an off flavor give it sometime and it should dissapate. I doubt it will know which is wild and which is intended yeast though. With wine I always add a dose before I add yeast to kill anything that was on the grapes because wine does not get boiled. The sulfate has dissapated by the next day and it safe to add yeast to again. It is also a preventitive to oxidation. I am thinking there may be several benifites to using it for those of us who force carbonate. The sorbate as mentioned only makes the yeast steril and is used to prevent re colinization in wine which you do not want to have carbonate in the bottle due to residual sugar.

 

[Killer_Robot]

I have an IPA in secondary that's showing some starting signs of lacto infection. While it tastes fine still, if it starts looking worse such that I'm sure of infection I might want to try this if its feasable. Difference is, I bottle condition rather than keg. If so, should I repitch yeast before bottling, or should existing yeast be unharmed by the campden treatment? Or is it just not going to work in my case?

 

[Yooper]

I have an IPA in secondary that's showing some starting signs of lacto infection. While it tastes fine still, if it starts looking worse such that I'm sure of infection I might want to try this if its feasable. Difference is, I bottle condition rather than keg. If so, should I repitch yeast before bottling, or should existing yeast be unharmed by the campden treatment? Or is it just not going to work in my case?

Wine yeast is pretty resistant to sulfites, but I'm not sure about ale yeast. Also, to add enough to kill lactobacilli, you'd probably at the very least stun the ale yeast. You could add the campden, wait a month or more, then add some fresh ale yeast before bottling. Like was mention, the sulfite does disapate via off-gassing over a period of time.

In the OP's case, though, we were talking about kegging it. To me, that would mean that the so2 gas would have no place to go, that's why I suggested keeping it in the carboy until it's gone.

 

[dontman]

:cross: So apparently even veterans are capable of some "did I ruin my beer" paranoia.

I just checked the carboy which, like I mentioned before, I have not looked at since Friday when I sucked the offending spice off with a turkey baster and then put into the fridge. The beer could not be clearer, or delicious smelling.

Still, the info here was quite helpful.

 

[Killer_Robot]

Wine yeast is pretty resistant to sulfites, but I'm not sure about ale yeast. Also, to add enough to kill lactobacilli, you'd probably at the very least stun the ale yeast. You could add the campden, wait a month or more, then add some fresh ale yeast before bottling. Like was mention, the sulfite does disapate via off-gassing over a period of time.

In the OP's case, though, we were talking about kegging it. To me, that would mean that the so2 gas would have no place to go, that's why I suggested keeping it in the carboy until it's gone.

Thanks for the advice, and gave the sulfites a try in my case since I can give time to let it vent out. Here's hoping it helps. Though some research after makes me worry: some sources say that sulfites only have a real preservative effect at low pH, and don't really do much at all above pH 4.0. So it might be that it won't do anything until the beer is already soured. Worst that happens is that I learn what won't work for next time, though.

 

[mitch171]

It may not have preservative power but it may still have killing power?

As to off gassing in a keg, would it still off gas into the head space? Maybe release the pressure every so often is taste persists. It would depend on is so2 is heavier or lighter than co2 and how pressure effects its boiling point. I do not know this information but someone may.

 

[BrewStooge]

Just what I was looking for, even the same beer! So I was adding some Campden tabs to my pumpkin ale after noticing an infection here as well (nothing I could classify as "snot" but foul all the same) and was wondering how many to go for in a 5 (originally, more like 4 after racking off the pumpkin goo) gallon batch?

The only use here so far has been in a couple 1 gallon fruit wine batches so I really have no idea what to expect from it. This would be bottle conditioned too, but if more yeast is needed then so be it, so long as it tastes right in the end.