Campden Needed for aging in secondary?

[Phishfinder]

Hey Everyone!

Have four batches all about 4 weeks into secondary and would like to age them for around 4 months. SO here's my question, if I want to age that long should I be hitting them with campden? I would like to bottle carbonate eventually and am a little confused on campdens role... will campden alone put the brakes on the yeast getting back up and going for carbonation in addition to preventing oxidization, or is its buddy sorbate needed in addition to accomplish this?

Any help would be appreciated and THANKS in advance!

 

[Thedillestpickle]

I believe if you use a campden tablet now you will need to repitch yeast in order to bottle carb.

 

[gregbathurst]

If you have minimal headspace in a glass container you don't need campden to age your cider, though it is an insurance policy against problems. Campden won't stop you bottle conditioning your cider, yeast are selected to be tolerant of SO2. If you are ageing in a plastic container or you have some headspace then campden tablets are necessary.

 

[Phishfinder]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, much appreciated

 

[Gavin C]

If you choose to add Campden tablets (Na or K metabisulphite) at racking to counter oxidative process that can occur during this step you

• DO NOT need to worry about yeast viability as a result. That is not to say you won't need more yeast at bottling after a prolonged aging, it simply means that the metabisulphite will not kill the yeast.
  
• DO need to ensure you are filling your secondary vessel to the neck if you want to minimize the risk of oxidation and/or infection developing. Filling to the neck reduces surface area and available oxygen in the vessel.

Campden tabs are used to counteract oxidative processes during the racking. Nothing more to it at this point. They are not used to stabilize nor do they limit long term oxidation as a result of an undefiled secondary vessel.

 

[Phishfinder]

Thanks Gavin. Appreciate the detailed explanation.

 

[Phishfinder]

So if I'm already in secondary and haven't added the campden yet but have no plans to move to tertiary due to minimal lees would I consider campden or let it be? I have a inch TOPS of headspace..... Wayyyy up the neck.

 

[Gavin C]

So if I'm already in secondary and haven't added the campden yet but have no plans to move to tertiary due to minimal lees would I consider campden or let it be? I have a inch TOPS of headspace..... Wayyyy up the neck.

There are only primary and secondary vessels.

Any additional rackings are still termed to secondary vessels. You can have as many rackings of a cider/wine as you deem fit. It is always..

primary-secondary-secondary----/---secondary-bottling bucket/keg

Many cider makers who are prolific experienced and far more knowledgeable than I often advocate adding Campden tablets (K or Na) every other racking at a dose of 1 tablet/gallon for the reasons I previously mentioned.

Let it be for now.

 

[gregbathurst]

Campden tabs are used to counteract oxidative processes during the racking. Nothing more to it at this point. They are not used to stabilize nor do they limit long term oxidation as a result of an undefiled secondary vessel.

Actually campden tablets in secondary also act to stop bacteria such as the bacteria for MLF, it does have an anti-bacterial action. If you don't add campden or other source of so2 you are more likely to get MLF, which is usually a good thing. You are also more likely to get other spoilage bacteria including aerobic bacteria like acetobacter, though the likelihood is still pretty low. If you have no headspace you won't get acetobacter. I don't use so2 and never have problems, but that doesn't mean I won't get problems in future. I pitch an MLF culture in my cider so I don't have to worry about whether a wild MLF will happen.

 

[Gavin C]

Actually campden tablets in secondary also act to stop bacteria such as the bacteria for MLF, it does have an anti-bacterial action. If you don't add campden or other source of so2 you are more likely to get MLF, which is usually a good thing. You are also more likely to get other spoilage bacteria including aerobic bacteria like acetobacter, though the likelihood is still pretty low. If you have no headspace you won't get acetobacter. I don't use so2 and never have problems, but that doesn't mean I won't get problems in future. I pitch an MLF culture in my cider so I don't have to worry about whether a wild MLF will happen.

Yes I know it has antibacterial properties. But this question from the OP relates to racking only which is why I tailored the answer to that end.

MLF?

 

[Phishfinder]

Thanks guys. All of this information is incredibly helpful.

I believe MLF is malolactic fermentation which I believe ferments Malic acid to lactic.... I think. I've been waiting for a "Wild MLF" for a long time.

 

[Yooper]

Yes I know it has antibacterial properties. But this question from the OP relates to racking only which is why I tailored the answer to that end.

MLF?

MLF is very common in cider, since apples are so high in malic acid. Without sulfites, it usually happens in ciders that are made from unpasteurized juice.

I do MLF on red wines (and most winemakers do) but don't generally like the results of MLF on cider.

Using an appropriate amount of sulfite in cider will not only work as an antioxidant, but also prevent MLF. If MLF happens in the bottle, corks will generally pop.

We don't talk about MLF much in this cider forum, because most people are making hard "cider" out of pasteurized juice from the store, but if you press your own apples it's a whole different ball game.

 

[MarkKF]

MLF is very common in cider, since apples are so high in malic acid. Without sulfites, it usually happens in ciders that are made from unpasteurized juice.



We don't talk about MLF much in this cider forum, because most people are making hard "cider" out of pasteurized juice from the store, but if you press your own apples it's a whole different ball game.

So I think it's happened to me a few times. What's the diff. taste, etc. with and without MLF?

 

[CMcPherson]

I pitch an MLF culture in my cider so I don't have to worry about whether a wild MLF will happen.

I hadn't heard about doing this yet... please explain more about this.

 

[gregbathurst]

MLF converts malic acid to lactic acid, it is a bacteria and works best above 16C and low so2. Malic acid tastes quite sour, it is used in sour candy to give the sour taste, you can buy some, look in the ingredients of the candy for malic acid, that will give you an idea. Lactic acid is much less sour, it is the acid in milk.
For dry cider I think it is better to have MLF because the cider won't taste so tart, but for sweet cider it doesn't matter so much. You can buy MLF culture, it needs to be kept cold in the freezer. At the end of primary you pitch the MLF, it takes about 3 weeks to finish. At first the cider will taste a bit odd, like cardboard, but that will settle and after about 6 weeks from pitching the cider will taste good. It takes a lot of guesswork out of cidermaking, but is only worth it for decent quantities of good quality juice.

 

[Eaglepilot]

If you have minimal headspace in a glass container you don't need campden to age your cider, though it is an insurance policy against problems. Campden won't stop you bottle conditioning your cider, yeast are selected to be tolerant of SO2. If you are ageing in a plastic container or you have some headspace then campden tablets are necessary.

This brings up a question I have. I just put 3 gallons in a 5 gallon keg that I flushed with CO2. Should I have added a few tablets? I did add sorbate a few days before racking.

 

[gregbathurst]

This brings up a question I have. I just put 3 gallons in a 5 gallon keg that I flushed with CO2. Should I have added a few tablets? I did add sorbate a few days before racking.

Yooper is always telling us that if you sorbate you should use campden (so2) as well to prevent off flavours. If you will be consuming the keg fairly soon then headspace isn't such a big issue. This thread is more about ageing in secondary.

 

[Phishfinder]

I'd commented on this in another thread.... But after I transferred to secondary 3 of the 4 batches cleared quick,dropped minimal sediment and seemed fairly dormant shortly after. Then a short while later those same 3 started bubbling pretty good with mild haze. Wonder if that's MLF... The 4th which was hazy for longer has cleared and seems fairly quiet. All 4 had different yeasts.

 

[gregbathurst]

Claude Jolicoeur has made a post about campden (sulfites) and ageing on cider workshop.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/f8mQFcnldQw

 

[Phishfinder]

Such a cool read!! Being incredibly new to brewing in general the science behind it is the part that fascinates me the most. And especially when results aren't expected...

Thanks for sharing that!

 

[gregbathurst]

If you are interested in the science I have uploaded my university notes for the SO2 part of the wine science unit. They are posted sideways so not very convenient but they tell you some of the science of using SO2.

https://picasaweb.google.com/103200589373187729343/SulfurDioxide#

 

[Phishfinder]

Hahahaha!! That's awesome...thx!!