Cacao nibs gave GROSS flavor

[IJesusChrist]

I bought these:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008P2FSKC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And I just tested after 3 days in secondary - DISGUSTING. I had used these in one of my meads as well, but thought it was because of the grains I had used. Nope - definitely the same flavor - and its definitely from these cacao nibs.

They taste NOTHING like chocolate. There is NO chocolate character what-so-ever. F*** I'm pissed.

Now what.

 

[kaconga]

Did you toast them?

 

[IJesusChrist]

Did you toast them?

no. am I suppose to?!

 

[bigbadgreen]

How did you use them? Boil, secondary, dry nib? I have brewed and baked with cocoa nibs. In my experience brewing with nibs they are best used at the end of the boil. The heat left in the wort will break down the nibs into a better state to impart flavor into your beer. Nibs are just roasted and crushed cocoa that is not processed yet. Because of their fat content they do not like to do much used as an addition to a secondary. If you are really looking to save the chocolate profile in your beer you might want to boil up some water and dissolve some nibs or baking chocolate into that and add it to the secondary. Other than that I'm not sure how much cocoa flavor those nibs will contribute.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Oh, I'm suppose to boil them? Everything I've read simply states "Cacao nibs in secondary"...

I tasted a larger gulp (ugh) and there is some chocolate profile, but holy jesus is it disgusting before-hand. The first taste is like ... god damnit its so bad. Nearly vomit-worthy.

 

[MindenMan]

It sucks no one suggested you roast them first. In my experience, un-roasted nibs really don't taste anything like chocolate. You need to roast them first, an as soon as they come out of the oven, pour them into a container of vodka, or any neutral spirit, let them cool, and mash them in the liquor and then walk away for a couple of days at least. Then taste the tincture you have made, and I am confident your mind will be changed, it tastes like a chocolate bar. Oh, and by the way don't ever boil them.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Well this thread is already filled with inconsistencies!

I'm wondering if it would just make sense to get some cacao powder or chocolate baking powder and add that and hope for the best. I just don't want TOO much chocolate either, though. I'm wondering if this new-beer flavor (I can't even describe it. I want to say moldy cardboard, but that would make people think oxidation) will go away, and suddenly this will be over-chocolate flavor.

 

[bigbadgreen]

Oh, and by the way don't ever boil them.

Just curious as to why you're suggesting not to boil them. .

 

[kaconga]

If they were raw then you need to roast them. I do 170* F for 10 min or until the kitchen reeks of chocolate. As for salvaging this batch, it would be good to know the style of beer and what you had intended.

 

[IJesusChrist]

If they were raw then you need to roast them. I do 170* F for 10 min or until the kitchen reeks of chocolate. As for salvaging this batch, it would be good to know the style of beer and what you had intended.

X-Post from extract brewing (seems to be a lull in activity there)
YES! I know! It won't be the same, but can someone help me modify this recipe for extract brewing?

70% 2row
4.5% C60
4.5% C80
2.5% Chocolate malt
2.5 Roasted barley
2.5% debittered black malt
5.7% rolled oats

Yeast WLP001

Mash temp high
finish gravity is about 5P
OG 21P
Hop variety does not matter much first and last additions 25 IBU total
Dry hop with equal amounts of light roast whole coffee beans and coconibs for about 2 days before kegging.

there it is, but i used an extract version

 

[ArcaneXor]

It's important to sanitize cacao nibs by soaking them in alcohol before adding them to beer. Unsanitized, they are a very common way that beers can get infected.

3 days is not very much time - I get a somewhat metallic flavor out of them at first, which gives way to a slightly nutty dark chocolate flavor after aging the beer on them for a while. Like weeks.

 

[MindenMan]

If you boil them, you will lose a lot of the aromatics during the boil, and during primary fermentation, you will lose even more. The choice between adding to a secondary or the bottling bucket (vessel), is one of convenience. You can toast the nibs, add to secondary, and wait until he flavor is where you want it, cold crash, and transfer to bottling bucket..., or, roast the nibs, add to neutral spirits, crush and wait a week or two. Here is the important part: pour the nibs mixture into narrow, tall, etc., put a straw into your nibs glass, put in freezer, and when top is solid, remove straw, and now you have a pour spout. Put the cocoa butter into any complimentary recipe, or use a a tanning aid.

 

[MindenMan]

Here is a link I believe most will appreciate:
http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/313-brewing-with-chocolate

 

[SpeedYellow]

My oh my, what a complete PITA. Just use cocoa powder! Don't have to toast, boil, soak in vodka, etc. Just mix up with some hot water and pitch into primary or secondary. And has no oils, unlike nibs. And powder is guaranteed to, ahem, actually taste like chocolate. Easy choice. I'll never understand the fascination with nibs.

 

[Hello]

It's important to sanitize cacao nibs by soaking them in alcohol before adding them to beer. Unsanitized, they are a very common way that beers can get infected.

3 days is not very much time - I get a somewhat metallic flavor out of them at first, which gives way to a slightly nutty dark chocolate flavor after aging the beer on them for a while. Like weeks.

Not really if you open a package and dump them all in as they should be clean. I did it and all was well. I don't think they were raw though.

 

[kaconga]

I think if you were to add some cocoa powder along with some more coffee then you could drown out the flavor of the raw nibs. On the flipside you could amp up the oddness with some rum soaked oak cubes.

 

[MindenMan]

I made 5 gallons with 8 oz of cocoa powder added @ 15 minutes. There was a definite cocoa flavor, but cocoa wasn't the flavor I really wanted, I wanted chocolate. At that point, my only option was to toast nibs and soak them in vodka ```

 

[ArcaneXor]

Not really if you open a package and dump them all in as they should be clean. I did it and all was well. I don't think they were raw though.

I have come across this about a half dozen times. That doesn't mean it's an issue every time or with all brands, but it's a good safety precaution to briefly soak them, just in case.

 

[bierhaus15]

You do not want to toast and/or boil cocoa nibs if you are using them for beer. The reason being that nibs are full of fat and temperatures above 100F will extract that fat as cocoa oil. Not only does this oil kill head retention, but lipids are known to accelerate beer spoilage and cause stability issues, especially in beer with elevated bacterial counts... which happens to be most home brew.

That said, most commercial breweries use cocoa nibs in the secondary at low temperatures (above freezing). The reason being that cold temps prevent oil extraction and reduces the amount of tannin and polyphenols (from the cocoa husk) that end up in our beer. If you are getting off flavors, chances are you are adding too much cocao or steeping for too long or at warm temps.

Lastly, you do not need to sanitize your cocoa nibs before using them. I know of no large brewery that does. Soaking any bean (coffee or cocao) in concentrated alcohol will net more tannic and astringent flavors than not doing so, and the alcohol content of the beer and the a low PH should prevent infection. If you do soak your nibs, dump out the soaking liquid before adding them.

 

[jimpdx]

I have the exact same bag of nibs from Amazon. I used them last year in a Stout with Raspberries that didn't work out well. I didn't particularly pay attention to the chocolate flavor since it was the raspberries which screwed it up.

However I took my final 10 ounces and soaked in rum for the beer I brewed yesterday. Was going to put it into secondary next week. Now you have me thinking I should throw them away and buy another brand.

I tasted the nibs from the bag yesterday and wasn't blown away. They look *very dark* so I assumed they were already toasted. Can anyone clarify (by looking at the Amazon link above) if they are already roasted/toasted? I assumes yes but I still have time to buy another bag and roast them.

 

[kaconga]

The description in the link says raw. I am betting they are untoasted.

 

[IJesusChrist]

The description in the link says raw. I am betting they are untoasted.

They are definitely not toasted... ugh. Not sure what to do! I guess just age for a while, see if I can get the off flavor to dissipate. It is only 6 weeks, for a 9% beer...

 

[kaconga]

They are definitely not toasted... ugh. Not sure what to do! I guess just age for a while, see if I can get the off flavor to dissipate. It is only 6 weeks, for a 9% beer...

Definitely wait then, the nibs will slowly dissipate in flavor and aroma in my experience. Usually 2 months or so and they are very faint.

 

[MindenMan]

To recap posts #6,#12, and #17. Yes, you have to roast nibs so they will taste like chocolate. If they are handled properly you get a ton of flavor w/o worrying about fats ruining the head on your beer. Here is the trick:
roast nibs until they smell like chocolate 10-12 minutes at 275* F or so, immediately pour them into enough vodka to cover them and crush while warm. Cover and let rest. After a few days have passed, place the nibs and vodka into a narrow mouthed glass, and put in freezer after inserting a straw. When the cocoa butter has hardened, remove straw and pour out through hole made by straw. This will leave the fats in the glass and the essence in the alcohol.

 

[kaconga]

To recap posts #6,#12, and #17. Yes, you have to roast nibs so they will taste like chocolate. If they are handled properly you get a ton of flavor w/o worrying about fats ruining the head on your beer. Here is the trick:
roast nibs until they smell like chocolate 10-12 minutes at 275* F or so, immediately pour them into enough vodka to cover them and crush while warm. Cover and let rest. After a few days have passed, place the nibs and vodka into a narrow mouthed glass, and put in freezer after inserting a straw. When the cocoa butter has hardened, remove straw and pour out through hole made by straw. This will leave the fats in the glass and the essence in the alcohol.

Nice! I am going to try this. It sounds like ot would work much better than just roasting them. Have you used the fat for anything else?

 

[joyceman]

Really appreciate mindenman's recap. I got a bag if nibs at whole foods & after checking, they ae raw too.

 

[ong]

Yeah, I used these nibs raw in a chocolate stout, but I appreciated the ferment-y cacao flavor. It definitely is not a traditional chocolate flavor, though.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Yeah, I used these nibs raw in a chocolate stout, but I appreciated the ferment-y cacao flavor. It definitely is not a traditional chocolate flavor, though.

Oh god, no this is just gross. Nobody would find this acceptable.

 

[MindenMan]

Hmmm, what to do with 100% pure cocoa butter? It's summer, and your wife will not only get a great tan, but she'll taste like chocolate too! Oh boy, chocolate flavored women. At room temperature the cocoa butter will be very soft, and is great for cooking anything that is chocolate based. You can have fun with your friends, bake some very blond cookies and have your friends guess what the cookies taste like. Nine out of ten won't get it because the color is wrong...

 

[biertourist]

Wow, there IS a lot of conflicting information on this thread and a lot of often repeated (but well-meaning fallacies)...

You will get more out of flavor additions by adding them in secondary than earlier in the process; earlier in the process and you're mostly wasting those expensive flavor additions (chocolate, coconut, whatever).

I've used 3 different brands of cocoa nibs and they were all pre-toasted but re-toasting them again on a pan on the oven on low while constantly stirring them does help to bring the aromas and flavor oils out again so I'd always recommend it. I also like to then grind the toasted nibs in a mortar and pistol to get more flavor out of them and to aid in faster flavor extraction.

You do NOT need to soak them in alcohol but with highly flavored ingredients this isn't a bad way to go as it enables you to slowly add more flavoring until its where you want. -When you add directly to secondary your only control is time.

The risk of infection is largely overstated ESPECIALLY if you're toasting the nibs; most wild microbes can't deal well with alcohol over 1.9% ABV, so secondary is much safer than most people think except with things like fruit where you just have INSANE amounts of microbes living on them (and in that case, FREEZE the fruit first; for multiple reasons); most wild microbes also can't deal with more than a few IBUs of hops although I realize that most beers that you'd add cocoa nibs to are very low in IBUs.

The risk of oils impacting the head retention is also significantly overstated, too; toasted coconut adds HUGE, HUGE amounts of oils to beers and tons of people brew them with great head retention; the head dissapates differently, but it still forms and looks great.

Boiling DOES often boil off the volatile aromas that we want by adding speciality ingredients in the first place and again the earlier you add the ingredient the more of it's flavor you're wasting.


Cocoa nib flavor also isn't "Gross" so maybe you're getting something else... Have you tried the raw cocoa nibs? -If you don't like raw cocoa nibs and only sweet chocolate flavor, maybe you just don't like the flavor of cocoa nibs (and if so then why would they taste better in your beer?)...

A lot of flavor additions also taste weird after the first couple of days and it takes a while to get the full set of flavor oils into the beer. (Coconut as a flavor addition tastes VERY strange the first couple of days.)


My $0.02, anyway.
Adam

 

[Happywanderer]

To recap posts #6,#12, and #17. Yes, you have to roast nibs so they will taste like chocolate. If they are handled properly you get a ton of flavor w/o worrying about fats ruining the head on your beer. Here is the trick:
roast nibs until they smell like chocolate 10-12 minutes at 275* F or so, immediately pour them into enough vodka to cover them and crush while warm. Cover and let rest. After a few days have passed, place the nibs and vodka into a narrow mouthed glass, and put in freezer after inserting a straw. When the cocoa butter has hardened, remove straw and pour out through hole made by straw. This will leave the fats in the glass and the essence in the alcohol.

This is the method i use. Except I got impatient on the fats solidifying. 2-days in the freezer and no real solidification of fats. So I just dumped the entire slurry into the secondary. There was a noticeable oil slick on the surface of the secondary.

Taste - nice very understated cocoa taste - especially on the back end.

Next time I'll up the cocao/vodka slurry ... probably do 6oz nibs. I think I did 3 last time.

Also - using this method gives a nice little ABV bump from the vodka.

 

[IJesusChrist]

So just to recap - the gross flavor definitely is reminiscent of cacao nibs. However there is a sour/putrid flavor that may also accompany it and confusing my taste buds.

I'm unsure but I will be now dunking every adjunct in alcohol tinctures from now on, even when sitting at >9% ABV!

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Wow, there IS a lot of conflicting information on this thread and a lot of often repeated (but well-meaning fallacies)...

You will get more out of flavor additions by adding them in secondary than earlier in the process; earlier in the process and you're mostly wasting those expensive flavor additions (chocolate, coconut, whatever).

I've used 3 different brands of cocoa nibs and they were all pre-toasted but re-toasting them again on a pan on the oven on low while constantly stirring them does help to bring the aromas and flavor oils out again so I'd always recommend it. I also like to then grind the toasted nibs in a mortar and pistol to get more flavor out of them and to aid in faster flavor extraction.

Hey I just bought cacao powder instead of nibs based on the fact it has 11g of fat instead of 52g but am wondering now if I made an unfavourable choice. I imagine it'll be impossible to remove from secondary or do nibs turn into a paste anyway? What do you think? Should I just roast the powder and then pitch or would going back and switching be the sensible option?

 

[MindenMan]

Cocoa powder adds the "hot cocoa flavor" which most of us call "chocolaty" and in large quantity it adds a level of bitterness too. I used 8oz of cocoa powder @ 15 minutes for a 5 gallon batch. Nibs don't turn into a paste per se, unless they were powdered after roasting. Cocoa nibs are roasted and then the liquor is separated into cocoa butter and cocoa powder "cake". I have never thought about re-roasting cocoa powder, so I can't comment on that. When I made my last Chocolate Stout, I used chocolate malt, cocoa powder, cocoa nibs, and Torani sugar-free chocolate syrup. Even two years in the bottle later it is still very chocolaty, and everyone that has tasted it really liked it. It isn't knock you over the head with chocolate flavor, but there is no way to not know it is a chocolate porter.