Need to go electric...

[doug293cz]

I do my first mash pH check 20 minutes after strike and roughly 15 minutes of recirculation, and on Tuesday's brew noticed the sample had already gone nearly bright and tasted very sweet. Next time I might try a starch test (something I've never done in almost 20 years of brewing ) at that point with some solids included and see how close to complete it actually is at that time. I'm assuming it isn't all that close yet...

Cheers!

Why not just test the SG of the wort in the mash. The max wort SG @ 100% conversion is determined just by the strike water to grain wt ratio, and the weighted average grain potential of the grain bill (which is pretty darn close to 37 for most typical grain bills.) Note that the full volume of the wort needs to be well homogenized to get accurate results. Recirculation in traditional false bottom MLTs insures good homogenization, but not so much in AIOs with solid sided malt pipes (water between the pipe and vessel wall does not participate in the recirculation.)

Here's a chart for max wort SG vs. mash thickness for a grain potential of 37 pts/lb:

Read more here.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I was talking more in terms of clear wort during the mash vs the boil, but good info/food for thought nonetheless. I've seen many brewers talk about nice clear wort recirculating over the top of the grain bed during the mash. I currently BIAB, and I'm stirring a few times during the mash, then again when I pull the bag. At that point, the wort draining through the bag is definitely not clear. I want to know if there is an advantage to having the wort clear during mash recirculation. My guess would be that clear wort means you've flushed the grain of starch for maximum conversion?

No one that I'm aware of is looking at clarity in the mash for the mash's sake. The implications of a vorlauf (recirculating) is trapping fines inside the grain bed so that only clear wort makes it to the boil kettle during the lauter. During the mash, fines caught in the grain bed are still "IN" the mash so that's moot. There IS plenty of debate about the flavor impact of milling too fine, with or without shredding husks, in possible extraction of tannins. At this point, I'll concede that a pulverized grist is more likely to contribute tannins slightly more than a coarse crush, but only when mash pH was already too high for both situations.

 

[day_trippr]

Actually testing for conversion has always struck me as not only unnecessary (given my processes) but potentially misleading if it's used to decide when to actually end a mash. I always mash for a full hour, followed by a mashout that at Δ2°F/minute takes another 10 minutes to rise to 170°F, and then by the time I get the wort in the bk (at 1 qt/min and a preboil of 13 to 14 gallons depending on the recipe) that's nearly another hour! I figure it's as converted as it's gonna get

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

Regarding clear wort, I would like to research Kunze or Narciss to see what they say about it as I know clear wort into the boil kettle is favored in the higher levels of the brewing world. Logically it makes sense to me to leave as much behind in the mash tun as one can. Nothing solid there helps down stream in the brewing process and might bring tannins etc... Experiments would be great but they would need to be focused on the right variables. Not a huge fan of Brulosophy as being a source of experimental data! This topic is more about chemistry than anything else imho. While you might get wort clarity going out of the boil kettle, it is more about the compounds that were transferred in and if they have a negative impact going through the boil process.

It's kind of a moving target. If someone quotes anything from Kunze or Narciss, the retort is that it's less applicable on a homebrewing scale. If someone quotes results of Brulosophy, the controls were too loose for the data to mean anything. I think the right approach is to assume the results in all cases MIGHT mean something. I'd say if you have your mind made up about something, there's such an instinct to right things off and pick apart the parameters of an experiment. I do it all the time.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree, bias is hard to get beyond. With my 3 vessel system, getting the clear wort is very simple, so I do not see it as a hurdle to overcome. I would need to try to get cloudy wort at this point. But for BIAB, single vessel folks, it is more of a challenge and decision to try and tackle. In my view, mashing is one of the areas where professional beer production does equate down to the homebrew level. So if the ancients say and prove it is better, then I am on board with them.

Regarding mash readings, I have gone to not using time as a measurement of mash rests but rather percent of my desired pre-boil gravity. One rule of thumb is to stay in beta until you get at least 90% of your pre-boil gravity. This ensures a highly attenuative wort. One can play with this lever to get different types of worts but it keeps the focus on the actual mash at hand rather than a random time increment. I use a long plastic pipette to grab little amounts of wort for my refractometer readings.

 

[Bassman2003]

There are many brewers who firmly believe boiling grain bits produces superior beer.

Spoiler

See decoction.

Brew on

Yes, decoction throws a wrench in some arguments. But the practice is viewed as a device for the mash and I wonder how they view the grain boiling post enzyme activity? Otherwise, why lauter at all? The lauter process is to not have all of the mash "stuff" in your boil kettle to clear way for hops and trub formulation. To what extent of 'clean wort' makes a difference? The answer is about what difference one is looking to examine. I will have to get back with you after some research.

 

[mashdar]

There are many brewers who firmly believe boiling grain bits produces superior beer.

Spoiler

See decoction.

Brew on

This makes me want to add a hop sock full of spent grain to the boil. For science.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, decoction throws a wrench in some arguments. But the practice is viewed as a device for the mash and I wonder how they view the grain boiling post enzyme activity? Otherwise, why lauter at all? The lauter process is to not have all of the mash "stuff" in your boil kettle to clear way for hops and trub formulation. To what extent of 'clean wort' makes a difference? The answer is about what difference one is looking to examine. I will have to get back with you after some research.

Once you get the decocted fraction to a boil, the enzymes are denatured. At that point there is no enzymatic action taking place during the decoction boil, so the chemistry isn't going to be significantly different than during a wort boil with some grain present.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Actually testing for conversion has always struck me as not only unnecessary (given my processes) but potentially misleading if it's used to decide when to actually end a mash. I always mash for a full hour, followed by a mashout that at Δ2°F/minute takes another 10 minutes to rise to 170°F, and then by the time I get the wort in the bk (at 1 qt/min and a preboil of 13 to 14 gallons depending on the recipe) that's nearly another hour! I figure it's as converted as it's gonna get

Cheers!

Once you mash-out, which denatures the enzymes, there will be no more conversion of starch to soluble starch, dextrin, or sugar, and no more hydrolysis of soluble starch and dextrin to fermentable sugar. SG stops rising once all available starch has been reduced in molecular wt to soluble starch, or shorter carbohydrates. Thus your effective mash time is only 70 minutes, no matter how long your sparge/lauter takes.

Brew on

 

[agentbud]

Although 120V is slower to heat than 240V kettles, it mostly counts when getting (cold) tap water to strike temps, and later the wort from mash temps to boil.

When using the delay timer to get to strike temps, the only time you need to wait around for 30-45 minutes is to get it to boil.
Good, efficient kettle insulation will help with that, or as you pointed to, using a 2nd heater element.

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.* Their beers are as good or better, and they're winning competitions as before.

Once you reach those target temps, 120V vs. 240V make no or little difference.

Are you going to be brewing indoors in your garage or in a door opening?

My biggest gripe with my 120v AIO system was the ramp times. But I recently added a hotrod heat stick to my arsenal and put it in during ramp times (start to mash and mash to boil) and it cut those times in half, maybe more.

 

[wepeeler]

No one that I'm aware of is looking at clarity in the mash for the mash's sake. The implications of a vorlauf (recirculating) is trapping fines inside the grain bed so that only clear wort makes it to the boil kettle during the lauter. During the mash, fines caught in the grain bed are still "IN" the mash so that's moot. There IS plenty of debate about the flavor impact of milling too fine, with or without shredding husks, in possible extraction of tannins. At this point, I'll concede that a pulverized grist is more likely to contribute tannins slightly more than a coarse crush, but only when mash pH was already too high for both situations.

That's a great explanation. That's what I was looking for. Thanks

 

[wepeeler]

I pulled the trigger and purchased the Anvil Foundry 10.5 tonight. I like the 120v/240v option, and I already have so many of the other add-ons that come with the other AIO systems. This will suit my need for now!

Also, I learned a great deal from this thread. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Hopefully it can help other people out as well!

 

[doug293cz]

Also, I learned a great deal from this thread. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Hopefully it can help other people out as well!

That is one of the great things about this community.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

Once you get the decocted fraction to a boil, the enzymes are denatured. At that point there is no enzymatic action taking place during the decoction boil, so the chemistry isn't going to be significantly different than during a wort boil with some grain present.

Brew on

I meant overall enzyme activity as when you add the decoction back in to the mash. But it still is an interesting situation.

 

[Bassman2003]

I found a nice concise paper about the effects of lauter turbidity. It is kind of an overview of industry research on the topic. I encourage a read-through as I it goes over the positive and negative aspects of really clear lauter wort and turbid lauter wort. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00716.x

In the end, I think it does not matter at the homebrew level unless you want to pursue it. The largest negative seems to be yeast health/performance during fermentation. Basically very clear lauter wort strips out important nutrients for yeast health. As long as this is addressed with yeast numbers/nutrients all is good. This is something I will be looking at since I like clear wort.

Good topic and glad I looked into it as too much of a good thing can be bad or overdone.

 

[Dancy]

Unfortunately, there's no chance in Hell our condo association will assist us with a rewire. They make us pay for EVERYTHING regarding anything inside. I could ask though...Thanks!

I know it’s not the primary topic, but I’m curious. I own a 1 bdrm condo and have lived here (and brewed!) for 8 years. I’ve been involved with my condo board, ran and lost in an election and, sorry to say, pay $600/month in dues. It pays for NOTHING

 

[Dancy]

Never finished the post because the page reloaded a couple time while I tired to type! lol
Anyway, I wanted to ask wepeeler what condo association would pay for inside unit work?? It’s not like a rental, you own your unit.

 

[wepeeler]

Never finished the post because the page reloaded a couple time while I tired to type! lol
Anyway, I wanted to ask wepeeler what condo association would pay for inside unit work?? It’s not like a rental, you own your unit.

None that I know of!

 

[garzlok]

Also, I learned a great deal from this thread. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Hopefully it can help other people out as well!

I recently purchased an HLT built to except a 5500w Element in anticipation to moving from propane to electricity.

This thread nudged me to finally make the leap to Electric. Researched the other threads and made sure I got the right everything. Cut the power to the house and install took less than 90 minutes (only went through one stud). Turned on power, tested the breaker GFCI and voila, a new circuit was born.

Brewed earlier this week, and all I can say...."I'm pissed it took me this long to do it!" Now I need a BK and a Controller, but that's going to take me a little bit to save up for....

 

[Bobby_M]

Brewed earlier this week, and all I can say...."I'm pissed it took me this long to do it!"

Unfortunately it's one of those things people have to experience to understand. Someone will read through this thread and see your post and they'll still think "nah, not for me". Electric brewing is transformative.

FYI, if you had the brass to put the GFCI and circuit in, you may be ready to take on a modest controller build. If not, the Blichmann Brew Commander is under 500 and you can swap cables mid brew day to make it work for both HLT and BK duties.

 

[wepeeler]

I recently purchased an HLT built to except a 5500w Element in anticipation to moving from propane to electricity.

This thread nudged me to finally make the leap to Electric. Researched the other threads and made sure I got the right everything. Cut the power to the house and install took less than 90 minutes (only went through one stud). Turned on power, tested the breaker GFCI and voila, a new circuit was born.

Brewed earlier this week, and all I can say...."I'm pissed it took me this long to do it!" Now I need a BK and a Controller, but that's going to take me a little bit to save up for....

I hear you man. I too am pissed it took me this long. I feel like recirculating and holding mash temps consistently have already improved my beer. Done a Kolsch and Hazy already and currently mashing a Bohemian Pilsner as I type this.

I still am only doing 120V so my brew day is about an hour longer, but I do feel the beer has turned out even better than before!

 

[garzlok]

Unfortunately it's one of those things people have to experience to understand. Someone will read through this thread and see your post and they'll still think "nah, not for me". Electric brewing is transformative.

FYI, if you had the brass to put the GFCI and circuit in, you may be ready to take on a modest controller build. If not, the Blichmann Brew Commander is under 500 and you can swap cables mid brew day to make it work for both HLT and BK duties.

I lost that "nah, not for me" attitude a few years back after I bought the Inkbird IPB-16S from you to control my MLT/RIMS Tube Temp.

I knew my total conversion was inevitable, but this thread was literally the nudge that had me research and just do it.

Yeah, I feel good about building a controller and I like the DIY aspect, but thinking back on my Inkbird purchase, I really liked the plug and play with no worries aspect. For controllers I really like the Spike Solo (I imagine I can swap cables with it too) and the Auber Cube with the Advanced EZboil.

 

[Bobby_M]

I lost that "nah, not for me" attitude a few years back after I bought the Inkbird IPB-16S from you to control my MLT/RIMS Tube Temp.

I knew my total conversion was inevitable, but this thread was literally the nudge that had me research and just do it.

Yeah, I feel good about building a controller and I like the DIY aspect, but thinking back on my Inkbird purchase, I really liked the plug and play with no worries aspect. For controllers I really like the Spike Solo (I imagine I can swap cables with it too) and the Auber Cube with the Advanced EZboil.

The solo controller looks cool and wins in the VERY SIMPLE category if you consider it a pro and not a con. There are couple features that are missing (for me) that took it out of the running for my system.

 

[mac_1103]

Unfortunately it's one of those things people have to experience to understand. Someone will read through this thread and see your post and they'll still think "nah, not for me". Electric brewing is transformative.

Or who knows, maybe someone will read through the thread and think "electric brewing sounds great but I'm not going to spend that kind of money for something I do three or four times a year"?

I mean, I think I would absolutely love one of your recirculating eBIAB systems, but that plus putting a 240V outlet where I need it would basically triple the cost of my next 20 batches or so. Maybe if I brewed twice a month, but I don't.

 

[Bobby_M]

Or who knows, maybe someone will read through the thread and think "electric brewing sounds great but I'm not going to spend that kind of money for something I do three or four times a year"?

And yet if you find yourself brewing on an electric system some time in the future, regardless of how that might happen, you too will wonder why you waited.

 

[mac_1103]

you too will wonder why you waited

No I won't. Really. I just told you why. And frankly it's kind of obnoxious to act like you know me better than I know myself. I know the costs and I know the benefits. And my cost/benefit analysis is my own, not anyone else's. I have a cheap, simple system that works well enough for what I want to do. I fully understand that there are lots of other ways to brew and that many of them are arguably (or even objectively) better than the way I do it. But they aren't worth it to me at this time. And given my age, they aren't likely to ever be worth it to me.

Everyone's personal circumstances are their own personal circumstances. I chuckle when I read posts telling me that I'd brew more often if I had a better/easier system. No, I wouldn't. Because the reasons that I don't brew more have everything to do with how much beer I want to brew and what else I want to do with my time, and almost nothing to do with how easy or hard or short or long my brew days are.

EDIT - Let me put it this way: There are times when I really wish I had an F-150, but those times are not frequent enough to justify buying one. An eBIAB system is a lot closer to being justifiable for me, but is still quite far away. I'm not telling anybody else what to drive, so why should anybody tell me what to drive?

 

[Bobby_M]

No I won't. Really. I just told you why. And frankly it's kind of obnoxious to act like you know me better than I know myself. I know the costs and I know the benefits. And my cost/benefit analysis is my own, not anyone else's. I have a cheap,o simple system that works well enough for what I want to do. I fully understand that there are lots of other ways to brew and that many of them are arguably (or even objectively) better than the way I do it. But they aren't worth it to me at this time. And given my age, they aren't likely to ever be worth it to me.

Everyone's personal circumstances are their own personal circumstances. I chuckle when I read posts telling me that I'd brew more often if I had a better/easier system. No, I wouldn't. Because the reasons that I don't brew more have everything to do with how much beer I want to brew and what else I want to do with my time, and almost nothing to do with how easy or hard or short or long my brew days are.

EDIT - Let me put it this way: There are times when I really wish I had an F-150, but those times are not frequent enough to justify buying one. An eBIAB system is a lot closer to being justifiable for me, but is still quite far away. I'm not telling anybody else what to drive, so why should anybody tell me what to drive?

Brother, this is a brewing forum and you're getting very heavy for what was a light hearted sentiment. Time for a beer I THINK.... I don't know for sure and I'm not accusing you of needing one.

 

[mac_1103]

you're getting very heavy for what was a light hearted sentiment

Sorry but it didn't seem lighthearted. At all. Really.

Time for a beer I THINK

Still a bit too early for me.

I'm not accusing you of needing one.

A beer, or an electric brewery?

 

[Deadalus]

Sorry but it didn't seem lighthearted. At all. Really.

Still a bit too early for me.

A beer, or an electric brewery?

No I won't. Really. I just told you why. And frankly it's kind of obnoxious to act like you know me better than I know myself. I know the costs and I know the benefits. And my cost/benefit analysis is my own, not anyone else's. I have a cheap, simple system that works well enough for what I want to do. I fully understand that there are lots of other ways to brew and that many of them are arguably (or even objectively) better than the way I do it. But they aren't worth it to me at this time. And given my age, they aren't likely to ever be worth it to me.

Everyone's personal circumstances are their own personal circumstances. I chuckle when I read posts telling me that I'd brew more often if I had a better/easier system. No, I wouldn't. Because the reasons that I don't brew more have everything to do with how much beer I want to brew and what else I want to do with my time, and almost nothing to do with how easy or hard or short or long my brew days are.

EDIT - Let me put it this way: There are times when I really wish I had an F-150, but those times are not frequent enough to justify buying one. An eBIAB system is a lot closer to being justifiable for me, but is still quite far away. I'm not telling anybody else what to drive, so why should anybody tell me what to drive?

But you are already a little e-curious...how about a pump to start out with? I happen to have a used March one in SS I could sell it to you cheap. Save some wear and tear on the old bones. Or a polished keggle MT, comes with the basic SS Brewtech recirculation kit, Blichmann thermometer, tee-slot false bottom, 3 pc ball valve, bigger pickup tube. I think I could give you a very fair price on that too, I know you are cheapskate. It was part of my E-HERMS.

Bobby was just ribbing you. Me too although I will sell you those items cheap. @Bobby_M You may not recall but I mentioned how Jersey banter isn't well understood...

 

[mac_1103]

Just so you know, I do in fact have electricity in my home. And I already own a pump and several ball valves. And I was born in New Jersey.