Buying Expired Yeast

[pshankstar]

I'm curious to know what is the most expired yeast you have or would consider buying? Like most LHBS mine has expired yeast on sale all the time, about 50% off. I was looking to buy a particular kind of yeast a couple months ago and they were out but had some of it that had expired (I believe more than a year ago). Now I know you need to make a starter with any expired yeast and maybe do it a couple of times to build it up properly.

So with that all being said, how far past the expiration date would you buy expired yeast? Also is there a rule of thumb to follow? If it's X months old, a single starter is typically enough? If X months or years old, X number of starters are typically needed?

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[Davemci]

One of the few things I buy online is yeast because of the fast turn around and freshness of the yeast.

 

[pshankstar]

So I picked up a pack of expired yeast from my LHBS today (heavily discounted) to try a new yeast that I have not used. The manufacturer's date on it is 5/12/15, so it is a year old. Based on the Brewer's Friend pitching calculator it says there is no viability. I thought if anything I would need to (at a minimum) make a starter, decant then do a second starter to have enough to possibly pitch. Am I wrong?

 

[jmitchell3]

So I picked up a pack of expired yeast from my LHBS today (heavily discounted) to try a new yeast that I have not used. The manufacturer's date on it is 5/12/15, so it is a year old. Based on the Brewer's Friend pitching calculator it says there is no viability. I thought if anything I would need to (at a minimum) make a starter, decant then do a second starter to have enough to possibly pitch. Am I wrong?

I would try it. maybe do a small (500ml or so) starter to begin with what's there, then step it up to a full 1.5L or so starter and pitch that. I think it'll work just fine! You'll be able to tell by how each starter ferments whether you'll want to pitch the resulting volume into a beer or not.

 

[stpug]

So I picked up a pack of expired yeast from my LHBS today (heavily discounted) to try a new yeast that I have not used. The manufacturer's date on it is 5/12/15, so it is a year old. Based on the Brewer's Friend pitching calculator it says there is no viability. I thought if anything I would need to (at a minimum) make a starter, decant then do a second starter to have enough to possibly pitch. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong. Make an initial smallish starter (500ml maybe), then build up to 1.5-2 liters. Include pure O2 to aerate the starter, as well as some good yeast nutrients in your starter.

I almost exclusively buy expired yeast (white labs or wyeast) because of the cost savings and my ability to work with it correctly. Keep your equipment and process sanitary, and you're golden.

 

[Aristotelian]

I am curious to see your results. It stands to reason that if you can culture up a decent starter from 10 ml of bottle dregs from some bottle that has been imported from Belgian, you can probably do the same from a vial of yeast that is past its optimum date.

 

[pshankstar]

I would try it. maybe do a small (500ml or so) starter to begin with what's there, then step it up to a full 1.5L or so starter and pitch that. I think it'll work just fine! You'll be able to tell by how each starter ferments whether you'll want to pitch the resulting volume into a beer or not.

You are not wrong. Make an initial smallish starter (500ml maybe), then build up to 1.5-2 liters. Include pure O2 to aerate the starter, as well as some good yeast nutrients in your starter.

I almost exclusively buy expired yeast (white labs or wyeast) because of the cost savings and my ability to work with it correctly. Keep your equipment and process sanitary, and you're golden.

Thanks guys! Now I don't feel like I wasted some money on a year old yeast packet. With all of what you both said, how will I know if I have enough cells to pitch? If the calculator say's I already have 0 viability, then I'm not sure where I would be at after the two small starters?

Thanks and sorry for the newbie questions. I've done starters before but I'm just a little confused on this one. Plus it's Friday and my brain is shot from work. Is it 5 o'clock yet????

 

[jmitchell3]

So the calculators are 1) estimations and 2) likely have more efficacy relating to vitality than to viability.

I've heard some say that white lab's vials have been lab tested for viability at expiration (120 days after packaging) and had north of 90% viability...however I guarantee I wouldn't want to pitch a 120 day old vial into my beer without a big starter.

 

[kombat]

Dry yeast, I'd buy regardless of expiration date.

Liquid yeast, I would definitely not buy if it were expired. I've been burned in the past with yeast that was VERY sluggish.

Buying online is a double-edged sword, in my experience. Yes, you can generally get fresher yeast (although, again, I've been burned), however you also need to consider the season. Buying in February, I know the package is going to sit outside for several hours before I get home, and the yeast is going to be frozen solid. That's happened to me, and even with stepped starters, I was unable to revive it. Similarly, in the peak of the summer, the yeast is going to sit in that community mailbox and "cook" until I get home from work, killing it off.

So I try to limit my online yeast purchases to spring and fall, with more moderate temperatures. During the summer and winter, I either rely on dry yeast, or am more mindful of scheduling my brewing around repitching yeast from batches that are just going into the keg.

 

[stpug]

Thanks guys! Now I don't feel like I wasted some money on a year old yeast packet. With all of what you both said, how will I know if I have enough cells to pitch? If the calculator say's I already have 0 viability, then I'm not sure where I would be at after the two small starters?

Thanks and sorry for the newbie questions. I've done starters before but I'm just a little confused on this one. Plus it's Friday and my brain is shot from work. Is it 5 o'clock yet????

The thing about working with yeast is that you're playing with grenades, not rifles . In other words, as long as you're even somewhat within range of the target then you'll have success. You should know after your initial 500ml starter how viable the vial was based on how quickly it takes off and performs; additionally, after that first step you'll have highly vital yeast cells as well. Your next step (~1-2l) is where you'll really be propagating the viable and active yeast cells.

Without doing the viable cell counting yourself, you will never know what percentage of the cells are viable because too many circumstances play a factor, including strain selection. Calculators use a formula that finishes at ZERO, which is wrong to begin with since you'll find living, viable cells in a couple year old refrigerated sample, and additionally is extremely heavy-handed at the reduction of viability. The brewunited yeast starter calculator has made adjustments to their formula such that you only ever approach ZERO, and at a slower but very reasonable way that uses better information and logic. It, too, is overly heavy-handed on viability percentages but it's definitely better.

In the end, the proof is in the pudding (or, rather, beer in our case). Use good practices and sanitary conditions to make the best starter you can. Use observation to assess the strength of your initial vial in the first step starter (i.e. how soon did you see changes in the starter after pitching? how quickly did the yeast finish out? how were the aromas that were coming from the starter flask? etc). Make adjustments for your next step(s) based on your original observations. Often times, an initial 500ml starter, followed by a 1liter starter that is only allowed to reach high krausen (6-10 hours only) is a solid pitch of yeast for 5 gallons of above-standard gravity ales (<=1.075 OG).

 

[beergolf]

I would not hesitate buying expired yeast for a discount. My LHBS usually will give me some for free if it is old. Stepped up starters and you are good to go.

If you can step up yeast from bottle dregs, a pack of older yeast is a piece of cake to get a good viable batch of yeast.

 

[sikkingj]

I've used used year old yeast on a number of occasions. I generally put it in a 4 L starter and let it ride for 4-7 days. As I have stated, I've had very good results. The longest I've had to wait was about 5 days before I spied some krasun.

My only caveat is that the yeast needs to have been stored cold.

You will know your yeast has "worked" when the starter changes from a dark color to a lighter creamy color. I then cold crash and decant into the fermenter.

 

[mxstar21]

I would not hesitate buying expired yeast for a discount. My LHBS usually will give me some for free if it is old. Stepped up starters and you are good to go.

If you can step up yeast from bottle dregs, a pack of older yeast is a piece of cake to get a good viable batch of yeast.

That is a great point. I recently picked up a vial of WLP 670 with an expiration date of 4/7/16 on 4/8/16 for $4, about half the cost. I think they charge $7.99 a vial. I couldn't believe they already had the discount bar code sticker on it. I love that yeast and was even happier to get it half off.

 

[pshankstar]

I've used used year old yeast on a number of occasions. I generally put it in a 4 L starter and let it ride for 4-7 days. As I have stated, I've had very good results. The longest I've had to wait was about 5 days before I spied some krasun.

My only caveat is that the yeast needs to have been stored cold.

You will know your yeast has "worked" when the starter changes from a dark color to a lighter creamy color. I then cold crash and decant into the fermenter.

Wow good to know. I guess I'll need to get a larger flask since I only have a 2L flask. Or I do a starter, cold crash, decant, repeat several times. Building up the starter I guess it's called.

 

[pshankstar]

Thank you all for the feedback. It's good to know that buying expired yeast is ok and only needs some additional work to get it going. Now I'll just plan my starter a good 7-10 days before the brew day so I can build up the starter with my small 2L flask.

 

[mxstar21]

Wow good to know. I guess I'll need to get a larger flask since I only have a 2L flask. Or I do a starter, cold crash, decant, repeat several times. Building up the starter I guess it's called.

You can just step it up if need be. The bigger flask probably isn't needed, but then you could also do larger starters. I turn off the stir plate a day or two after I make my starter and I can get a good idea of how much yeast I have by seeing how much settled to the bottom of the flask. Not scientific by any means, but it seems to work well for me.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I have taken a year old WLP002 vial through a couple of step ups to pitch into 10 gallons. Use good quality yeast nutrient and a low gravity starter. I did mine with 1.010 starter and nutrient in 250ml. cold crashed after 36 hours, decanted, added to 500ml of 1.020 starter for 36 hours, cold crashed, decanted, added to 2000ml of 1.040 starter for 48 hours, cold crashed and pitched into just over 11 gallons of wort. I can my final runnings from previous brews and got the vial for free, so a little work got me very robust yeast that was as healthy as if I had just pitched 2 fresh vials. Oh, and the beer took 2nd place in competition.

 

[m1k3]

I brew a lot of 15 gallon batches... with 6 hours of my time and $100 on the line, I would not mess around with questionable ingredients.

 

[sikkingj]

I failed to mention that I use a stir plate; I believe this makes a big difference.

From my perspective, old yeast is just as viable as new yeast. If you want to pitch the vial with no starter - new yeast is the way do go. If you have invested in a stir plat and larger flask (I swear by my 5L) you can consistently cut your yeast expense in half.

Best of luck!

 

[GQT]

I would not _buy_ expired yeast for 50% for sure: 3 bucks I save would not cover for the mess with starters and all that. However two or three times I had asked if a shop had some stone age yeast they were about to dump, and whether they would agree to dump it into my parcel. They did, and those yeast worked just fine.
Of course, I would always make at least 2-, or at times 3-step starter.
It only happened once that the starter came out totally lifeless. Then I used it (starter) for slanting, and the yeast grew fine on slants. OK, so I propagated it from slants, and it was as strong and aggressive as could be.
But back to the original question, if I was offered a pack of expired yeast for 3 dollars, I would walk by. 1 dollar, I would think. 50c, I would clear out the whole stock.
No older than 18-20 months, of course.

 

[IslandLizard]

Dry yeast, I'd buy regardless of expiration date.

Liquid yeast, I would definitely not buy if it were expired. I've been burned in the past with yeast that was VERY sluggish.

Buying online is a double-edged sword, in my experience. Yes, you can generally get fresher yeast (although, again, I've been burned), however you also need to consider the season. Buying in February, I know the package is going to sit outside for several hours before I get home, and the yeast is going to be frozen solid. That's happened to me, and even with stepped starters, I was unable to revive it. Similarly, in the peak of the summer, the yeast is going to sit in that community mailbox and "cook" until I get home from work, killing it off.

So I try to limit my online yeast purchases to spring and fall, with more moderate temperatures. During the summer and winter, I either rely on dry yeast, or am more mindful of scheduling my brewing around repitching yeast from batches that are just going into the keg.

Agreed with shipping during temperate seasons only. But I would have no problem with buying out of date yeast, even a year old as long as it has been refrigerated OK. Now neither of 2 LHBS here ever have out of date yeast for some reason, but 3-5 months old does happen. Never had any issues with those.

 

[pshankstar]

Yeah the LHBS keeps all their yeast in a fridge keeping them all very cold. If they didn't keep the yeast and the hops in there then I would look for a different shop.

Now I want to brew another small batch (3 gallons) with this yeast! I'm getting excited to try it out. I forgot to mention its Ringwood Wyeast. I've heard good things about it.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[phug]

I'm lucky to have a shop that gives away expired yeast for free. So I have some expired Cbc dry yeast in the freezer and a couple of vials in the fridge

 

[Baja_Brewer]

MY LHBS sells expired yeast for $1 a vial. Every time I'm there I paw through the bin and pull stuff that I could possibly use and is no more than 6-10 months expired - usually Belgian yeasts, while the owner stands there and tells me he's revived some that were 2 years old (and he has some that are about that old!)

I then build them up using the method in this HBT article from a while back:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/using-yeast-past-its-prime.html

I brew 2.5 to 3 gallon batches, so I always save half the yeast from the end to build up for next time. I've had a few duds, but you can usually tell by the second starter.

 

[Casedeville]

I found this article reassuring.

My LHBS recently gave me an expired vial of White Labs Alt yeast (only a few days past expiration), and I did a two-step starter, pitched it, and the beer attenuated down to 1.004 and tastes great. I even repitched some of that yeast into another beer and it also tastes great. I have no fear of expired yeast if I can't get a fresh vial of the strain I want, but I don't go looking for expired or really old yeast.

 

[pshankstar]

Ok, I have sourced a larger flask (4L). So now I have a 1L and a 4L flask. I thought I read somewhere about building up a starter so they would have enough for pitching and some to save as a clean/fresh harvested yeast. I am having troubles trying to find this thread again.

With that being said, how do I go about building up the starter with some old yeast, but build it up enough to keep half or a portion of it to use again? The only reason I am asking is, I plan on doing a small 3 gallon batch in a PET Carboy, so I don't plan on harvesting the yeast from it. When I do 5-6 gallon batches in my FastFerment, I harvest the yeast from the collection ball almost every time.

If anyone has any insight to this, please share. If you happen to find the thread I cannot find, please post. Thank you all in advance!

 

[BeardedBrews]

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

This has an "OverBuild" function that helps you make a little extra to save for the next batch.

If you add in your estimate on viability it will help you with the scale-up starter approach. At some point that calculator will tell you there is 0 viable yeast based on the date, I just manually set it to 5% viable and work from there. The calculator also assumes the smallest you want to do is a 1L starter, but if you've got very very old yeast it might be better to do a 0.25 for the first step just to be more gentle.

 

[sikkingj]

Pshankstar I don't step up the starters - I just start them at 3 or 4l in size and let them spin for 3-5+ days. I just pitched a lager year that I had spinning for 2weeks,cold crashed, decanted and pitched this morning.

 

[Jaybird]

So just as a test about 4-5 years or so ago I made a 10 gallon batch of a super light American Ale and put into 2 buckets. 1 bucket I pitched a new vial (yes liquid) of yeast (no starter) and the other I pitched a vial of the same yeast that was well over a year old (no starter) Both fermented just fine. New yeast started faster for sure as the old yeast had a lag time of about 24 hours (if I remember correctly) Both beers were VERY close in taste. There were a few differences that I cant remember exactly what they were. Both beers were very drinkable. I know its not the science you were looking for but just something I did a long time ago just playing around.

Cheers
Jay

 

[CA_Mouse]

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

This has an "OverBuild" function that helps you make a little extra to save for the next batch.

If you add in your estimate on viability it will help you with the scale-up starter approach. At some point that calculator will tell you there is 0 viable yeast based on the date, I just manually set it to 5% viable and work from there. The calculator also assumes the smallest you want to do is a 1L starter, but if you've got very very old yeast it might be better to do a 0.25 for the first step just to be more gentle.

I used this several times before I started to plate and freeze pitches. I've done first step starters at 50ml for really old vials and go from there.