Building Water for a Kolsch

[Beerrific]

I have decided to finally give building my water a go for the first time on an upcoming Kolsch. I have access to this year's water report, our water here is very soft so I am going to just build from there.

I was hoping some of the water experts would look over this and see if I am making any horrible mistakes.

Here is the base water (ppm):
Ca: 4
Mg: 1.1
Na: 9.4
Cl: 5
SO4: 7
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 22


Adding calcium chloride, gypsum, and epsom salt to achieve (ppm):
Ca: 96
Mg: 14
Na: 9.4
Cl: 125
SO4: 122
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 22

A few questions:
1. Is it easier to treat all the water (~10 gallons) and draw off for the mash and sparge, or treat the mash and the sparge separately?
2. How hard is to get this stuff to dissolve? I am thinking I might treat the mash and the sparge separately so I can use the heating of the water to aid in dissolving the salts. I know it is not technically necessary to treat the sparge water, but I want to achieve certain ion levels/ratios in the final beer.

On a side note: Anyone have water with Ca this low? I did not realize it was so low, I think I have been cheating my yeasts out of a needed nutrient.

Am I missing anything here?

 

[BigEd]

You're overdoing it for a Kolsch. Ditch the gypsum and magnesium sulphate, you don't want a sulphate influenced hop profile in this beer. Just use some calcium chloride to get the Ca+ up to 50/75 ppm and leave it at that.

 

[Beerrific]

I was under the impression that it was the ratio of chloride to sulfate ratio that really determined the bitter/malty balance. I wanted it around 1:1 to keep it balanced.

 

[Aspera]

+1 on Big Ed's answer. I totally envy your base water.

 

[DanVader]

looks like good numbers to me. I'm not an expert by any means, but it is also my understanding that the ratio of sulfate to chloride determines malty/bitterness.


good bad or ugly, I add all my salts to my total volume (not they don't all dissolve) stir it up very vigorously and then draw off my strike water. Can't say if this is the right or wrong way, but it's easy, and seems to work out. My base water here in tucson is already pretty suitable for dark beers, and I really haven't noticed much of a difference in my stouts and porters as I only bump up the calcium and magnesium a tad. I've started cutting half and half with distilled for my pale ales and building it back up, and it's made a world of difference.

 

[nealf]

Wow, nice water profile... I need to get mine tested soon! I think your numbers look pretty good... maybe the Mg is a little on the high side for this style. I don't have a lot of experience with water adjustment and only mess with it when I am brewing a hoppy beer (adding Gypsum). Here is a chart for water profile by beer type, if you don't have it:

Homebrewing and water quality

 

[AnonyBrew]

I have decided to finally give building my water a go for the first time on an upcoming Kolsch. I have access to this year's water report, our water here is very soft so I am going to just build from there.

I was hoping some of the water experts would look over this and see if I am making any horrible mistakes.

Here is the base water (ppm):
Ca: 4
Mg: 1.1
Na: 9.4
Cl: 5
SO4: 7
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 22


Adding calcium chloride, gypsum, and epsom salt to achieve (ppm):
Ca: 96
Mg: 14
Na: 9.4
Cl: 125
SO4: 122
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 22

A few questions:
1. Is it easier to treat all the water (~10 gallons) and draw off for the mash and sparge, or treat the mash and the sparge separately?
2. How hard is to get this stuff to dissolve? I am thinking I might treat the mash and the sparge separately so I can use the heating of the water to aid in dissolving the salts. I know it is not technically necessary to treat the sparge water, but I want to achieve certain ion levels/ratios in the final beer.

On a side note: Anyone have water with Ca this low? I did not realize it was so low, I think I have been cheating my yeasts out of a needed nutrient.

Am I missing anything here?

Did you end up going with this? I'm brewing your Kolsch today.

 

[Beerrific]

I haven't done it yet. I think I am happy with it and probably will use it.

 

[AnonyBrew]

Look what I get to work with. It's near impossible to even get close to a Munich water profile.

My tap:

Ca 70
Mg 18
Na 35
SO4 58
Cl 39
HCO3 432

If I cut the HCO3 with RO down to half, it takes my Ca too low. Then if I try adding either Gypsum or Calcium Chloride to bring it back up, then my SO4 or Cl are way too high.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Regarding your questions: I've wondered this myself too. John Palmer actually addresses this in some recent podcasts (Brewing Network). He suggests the process of shooting for a target by adding a given amount of salts. Make the first salt addition to the mash to take care alkalinity, pH, hardness, etc. Then add the remainder of the salts (total - mash) to the boil to achieve your total ion level for yeast health & taste (chloride:sulfate, sodium, etc.).

The main reasoning for this is that the salts will readily dissolve in hot water (mash & boil) and treating sparge water is unnecessary.

 

[nealf]

Here are some links for some water quality from Cologne (Kolsch's home town IIRC):

RheinEnergie AG - Wasser - Qualität

http://www.rheinenergie.com/download/produkte/wasser/trinkwasser_linksrheinisch.pdf

Our water profiles look fairly similar if what I gather is correct, this is pretty close to what mine is:

Hardness: 30
Alkalinity: 22
Ca: ~24
Mg: ~8
HCO3: ~60

 

[ChemE]

The main reasoning for this is that ... treating sparge water is unnecessary.

I totally disagree with this statement as I think it is of great benefit to lower the pH of sparge water. This allows me to sparge far longer (and to a gravity lower than 1.010) without the pH rising to a level which risks tannin extraction. I can sparge to 1.004 and yet keep the pH below 5.2 with proper sparge water treatment.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Sorry, i still think about that in my p.o.v., as i dilute my water a great deal with DI, but more importantly batch sparge. So i guess i should have had a disclaimer that stated:

"as far as i know, treating sparge water in batch sparging is unnecessary."

Good catch.

 

[ChemE]

Yup, and I'm just as guilty in only looking at it as a fly sparger. I agree for batch sparging my objection evaporates and I can't think of a good reason for a batch sparger to treat the sparge water.

 

[Adam78K]

What do you guy's think of this, just did it for tomorrows brew.

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 3.2
Mg: 0.7
Na: 6.5
Cl: 4.2
SO4: 3.5
CaCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.5 / 5.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 11
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 4

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 2 / 3.142857143
CaCl2: 3 / 4.714285714
MgSO4: 1 / 1.571428571
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 1.571428571
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 2

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 99 / 99
Mg: 8 / 8
Na: 36 / 36
Cl: 159 / 159
SO4: 117 / 117
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.36 / 1.36

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -103
RA: -178
Estimated pH: 5.38

 

[Adam78K]

bump any1?

 

[optimatored]

go check out the brewing water chem primer sticky in the brew science forum... will change your thoughts pn how to deal with brewing water.

 

[mabrungard]

The chloride level proposed above is far too high. You should keep it below 100 ppm under nearly all conditions. The sulfate/chloride ratio has less impact when the total levels of those ions get high. If you're concerned with the ratio, move both chloride and sulfate levels lower. The calcium level is higher than necessary, but that's a minor concern.

The need for sparge water treatment does not change for fly or batch sparging. The statements by Cactusgarrett above are somewhat incorrect. If the brewer's water has alkalinity that exceeds about 20 ppm, then acidification to reduce that alkalinity is very beneficial. I see from one of Cactusgarrett's posts, that he dilutes with DI. That has the effect of reducing alkalinity and it is quite possible that his brewing water requires no other sparge water treatment. For the rest of us brewing with moderate to high alkalinity water, you either need to dilute or acidify to reduce alkalinity levels to acceptable levels. pH drop is just an easier indicator for alkalinity reduction than performing an alkalinity test. That is why it is more widely used than an alkalinity test.

 

[Adam78K]

this might be a dumb statement but isn't it already below 20 alkalinity, it's at -103?

 

[ArcaneXor]

Cologne water is roughly:

Calcium: 109.9
Magnesium: 14.9
Sodium: 39.4
Sulfate: 84.5
Chloride: 71.8
Bicarbonate: 271.3

How they treat the water, or if they even use the same source is anyone's guess.

 

[mabrungard]

this might be a dumb statement but isn't it already below 20 alkalinity, it's at -103?

I think you're looking at Residual Alkalinity. As we know its related to alkalinity, but its really just Alkalinity that we're interested since it is a true measure of the water's ability to consume acid. Residual Alkalinity has the magic of calcium and magnesium interacting with malt phytins to create an acid. Not the same.

 

[Adam78K]

so you're saying alkalinity is still to high? Still just a little confused because its negative, does that matter if it is negative? Sorry for all the question's.

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -103

 

[optimatored]

so you're saying alkalinity is still to high? Still just a little confused because its negative, does that matter if it is negative? Sorry for all the question's.

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -103

unless i missed the post... please read the brewing chemistry primer in the brewing science section !

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[mabrungard]

so you're saying alkalinity is still to high? Still just a little confused because its negative, does that matter if it is negative? Sorry for all the question's.

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -103

That is not the water's alkalinity. It is Residual Alkalinity. The formula for Residual Alkalinity is: RA = Alkalinity - (Ca/3.5 + Mg/7)

If the water pH is above 4.3, then the alkalinity cannot be negative. It appears that EZ Water has left you confused. If you want to learn about brewing water chemistry you can download and read the information contained in Bru'n Water.

Good Luck!

 

[kwksilver]

I have never posted here, but this warrants my input.
1.) I am German. I grew up in Cologne
2.) I live in NYC, (soon Boston and then I plan to contact Kaiser and see if he wants to brew)
3.) Koelsch is obviously beer from cologne and I know quite a bit about it

4.) This is the exact chemical analysis of the water that they use at the Reissdorf plant
5.) I happen to be a chemist by training. Forget the Sulfur you just don't need it.
6.) cologne water is somewhat hard but the better koelsch actually happens to be from softer water. Reissdorf is my favorite but they often get dinged for the "ruppig" taste profile the harder water gives it.
7.) If you want to play with engineering the taste of that water do the K+ do the Na+ do the Cl- and the Ca++ that will do. This water is profiled by these ionic species. See the nitrates? yup crapwater

http://www.rheinenergie.com/media/p...wasseranalysen/trinkwasser_linksrheinisch.pdf

 

[ArcaneXor]

kwksilver,

do you have any information on how the other breweries (Gaffel, Frueh, Muehlen, etc.) treat their water to soften it? Also, any insight on the current hops used in authentic Koelsch would be awesome to know; there seems to be a lot of outdated and inaccurate information out there. Do they still use hops grown in the Dueren area? Anything you can share would be awesome!

 

[kwksilver]

So i tried to get you that hops info and the answer is not fun
They do not necessarily go regional at all. Apparently here you get a big difference between the little guys and the big ones.

My info relates to Paeffgen and Reissdorf:

Paeffgen mostly buys German regional hops and they sometimes have to go to Elsass and southern Germany. Their attempts at flavor consistency are done by the brewmeister and that's it for that. So they have variation and they are proud of it. They don't advertise that because that wouldn't be popular to Germans.

The big ones apparently separate the bittering goals from the aroma thing. The bittering is all done via extract and that comes from god knows where. So local hops or specific varieties do not matter to them there. Apparently Aroma hops combinations do vary batch to batch and the way that is determined is with liquid chromatography. They just have a target fingerprint they try to approach. Apparently they don't even bother to know the exact compounds that make up the hplc graph. They just make sure to replicate it...