Building up a Weihenstephan 3068 yeast for a 10 gallon batch?

[luckybeagle]

Hello,

I am doing my first yeast starter from a Wyeast 3068 packet for tomorrow's brew. I made the starter last night with 1 packet of yeast, 2 cups boiled water and 1/2 cup DME, and have been swirling it every so often. I plan to dump this into a 10 gallon batch tomorrow afternoon.

I didn't make a starter last time I brewed this one and it turned out just fine, but since my batch size is doubling I'm wondering if I should prepare more wort this evening to add to my starter? If so, should I add yeast nutrient this time? I did not add yeast nutrient when I made the starter on the LHBS guy's recommendation since I plan to add it to the boil.

Since it's a lower OG beer, should I even worry about building it up?

 

[IslandLizard]

With liquid yeast you should always make a starter, to prove her viability and ramp up cell count.

Read up on starters, 2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME and intermittent swirling is not going to cut it. Especially for a 10 gallon pitch. Read up on making proper yeast starters.

Also look at some of the yeast calculators to get an idea how many cells are needed for a healthy fermentation. Even 4 packs of WY3068 may not be enough for a 10 gallon pitch, depending on age and how the yeast has been handled since it left the lab.

 

[luckybeagle]

With liquid yeast you should always make a starter, to prove her viability and ramp up cell count.

Read up on starters, 2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME and intermittent swirling is not going to cut it. Especially for a 10 gallon pitch. Read up on making proper yeast starters.

Also look at some of the yeast calculators to get an idea how many cells are needed for a healthy fermentation. Even 4 packs of WY3068 may not be enough for a 10 gallon pitch, depending on age and how the yeast has been handled since it left the lab.

Thank you--I used Jamil's calculator, which calls for 330 billion cells based on my target OG of 1.047, which is 1.47 liters of starter. EDIT: My yeast was packed in July of this year. I had success doing a 5 gallon batch with one packet, no starter, same recipe--and hit my FG on the nose. But 10g is more to mess up and since it's for Thanksgiving I have very little margin for error.

Is it possible to build up my cell count from 100 billion to 330 billion in 48 hours, if I make more wort and add yeast nutrient at the 24 hour mark?

Should I do this AND try to find another 3068 packet to add to the starter? Or is buying a second packet not necessary given the 36 hrs I have before I'll need to pitch?

Thanks

 

[MrPowers]

When using 3068 you definitely want to underpitch if you want any of the banana character. Pitching it at conventional ale pitch rates mutes the character of the yeast too much.

For perspective, I just did a 10 gallon batch of 1.051 Hefe with 1 pack of Omega’s version of 3068 into a .5L starter. I pitched the entire starter at high krausen and the main batch fermented out in 64 hours. With Hefe its about pitching ACTIVE yeast, not a lot of yeast.

You may want to add just a little bit more wort to the starter just to keep them active, but I would not be shooting for a conventional pitch rate.

 

[IslandLizard]

I mostly use Homebrew Dad's (Brew United's) yeast calculator to estimate cell counts, sometimes Mr.Malty when pitching from slurries, etc.

Starter wort should be around 1.037-1.040, basically 1 part DME to 10 parts water, by weight (1:10). The 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups water is totally wrong (I think that came from Palmer's 3rd Ed. book)!

If you don't have a stir plate or shaker, you'll see growth is not as good. It's worth buying or building a stir plate for yeast propagation. One sleeve of yeast can become plenty for 10 healthy pitches.
If you have access to O2, you can use that instead of swirling. Much better growth in shorter time.

A 2nd, alternative method:
Search for "shaken not stirred" yeast starters.
If you have one, use a gallon carboy (jug) (with screw lid or rubber bung) to help finish that starter.
Pour in all the starter slurry you have now, add a pint of 1.037-1.040 (starter) wort to it, cap tightly, and shake vigorously, as often as you can, at least once an hour. The more foam the better. Let in fresh air each time before you shake or loosely cap with some sanitized foil until the next shake. That should get you close to 330 billion in 24-48 hours.

 

[Smellyglove]

Imo opinion there's actually no need to underpitch 3068 to get banana. It's more about how you mash and ferment. I usually get a perfect amount banana even if I pitch "correctly" (0.75bn*plato*ml-ish) with 380, which is "by default" high phenol low ester yeast. But the most important think is to pitch as viable yeast as possible.

 

[IslandLizard]

When using 3068 you definitely want to underpitch if you want any of the banana character. Pitching it at conventional ale pitch rates mutes the character of the yeast too much.

For perspective, I just did a 10 gallon batch of 1.051 Hefe with 1 pack of Omega’s version of 3068 into a .5L starter. I pitched the entire starter at high krausen and the main batch fermented out in 64 hours. With Hefe its about pitching ACTIVE yeast, not a lot of yeast.

You may want to add just a little bit more wort to the starter just to keep them active, but I would not be shooting for a conventional pitch rate.

That's a really good point with this yeast! I love bananas, but hate that flavor in beer, so I try to avoid it.
Now, your Omega pack may have already contained more cells than the OP's when fresh. His is now 3 months old, ~40% viability.

@luckybeagle, ignore my previous post if you're after banana flavor here. But apply to every other yeast where proper cell count pitches are desired.

 

[MrPowers]

@Smellyglove I always got some banana at “proper” pitch rates with 3068, but never Weihenstephaner levels. The beer always seemed hollow to me if it was pitched at rates appropriate for other ale strains.

I completely agree that pitching the most viable (healthy and active) yeast possible is even more important than getting exactly the right amount.

@IslandLizard he probably is still slightly under pitching, even for Hefe standards if he isn’t using a stir plate, I neglected that fact.

 

[Smellyglove]

@Smellyglove I always got some banana at “proper” pitch rates with 3068, but never Weihenstephaner levels. The beer always seemed hollow to me if it was pitched at rates appropriate for other ale strains.

I completely agree that pitching the most viable (healthy and active) yeast possible is even more important than getting exactly the right amount.

@IslandLizard he probably is still slightly under pitching, even for Hefe standards if he isn’t using a stir plate, I neglected that fact.

Imho there is no problem whatsoever to get WAY beyond Weihenstephaner-levels even with overpitching, if you mash and ferment for it. But often it's not just isoamyl acetate, it's also ethyl acetate, for maximum esters.

 

[MrPowers]

What is your full yeast handling process using the strain?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I don't know about the underpitch/overpitch for banana (I aim for a clove:banana balance in my hefes) but this is the only liquid yeast that I'll use without a starter (or a kind of sacrificial beer) - single packs in 6 to 7 gal batches are at full krausen within 12hours and trying to blow through the airlock. That said, I'd still make a small, active starter for 10 gal.

 

[madscientist451]

Hello,


I didn't make a starter last time I brewed this one and it turned out just fine, but since my batch size is doubling I'm wondering if I should prepare more wort this evening to add to my starter?

Start saving your used yeast slurry in sanitized quart jars. If used within a few weeks, you don't need to make another starter.

 

[Sadu]

I've had some fun under pitching hefes with wlp300 (same thing as 3068).
Last brew I made a vitality starter on brewday with a 12oz glass of beer from the previous batch. No yeast, other than what was in the glass. Pitched that into 4 gallons of wort. Took 48h to start but the flavour of the finished beer was amazing.
I've also done a 3 way pitch experiment and found that 1 tablespoon of very healthy slurry is fine for 5 gallons.
I guess what I'm saying is that you can really push the boundaries with hefe pitch rates and it doesn't make the beer worse like it does with other styles. Still unsure if an under pitch is better than a normal pitch, I suspect it is.
I also think the mash schedule is the thing that makes or breaks these beers.

 

[Smellyglove]

What is your full yeast handling process using the strain?

Was that question for me?

If not I'm answering it anyway

It's more about the mashing and temperatures during fermentation. And how you prime the beer for carbonation. You really need to step mash it for the esters. It's about the glucose. Limit dextrinase gives you more glucose than if you'd just do an infusion in the middle of alpha/beta-land, like 65C. Many people do infusions at 67C, but that's omitting the limit dextrinase, so they get a wort with less glucose, thus less esters.

You can also do a hermann-verfahren mash style, combined with a high ferm-temp is will yield you THE BOMB of all mothers of esters. But it's not necessarily a good thing. The ethyl acetate can be off the charts, to the point it tastes like solvent. You need really good temp-control during fermentation and bottle carbonation to be able to repeat it if you've found a combo you like with high glucose wort, and without the esters going haywire. And speise is the key for bottle conditioning.

The simplest way is just adding glucose.. but how fun is that.

Then you can combine it with higher ferm-temps. But basically, it starts in the mash.

 

[MrPowers]

Was that question for me?

If not I'm answering it anyway

It's more about the mashing and temperatures during fermentation. And how you prime the beer for carbonation. You really need to step mash it for the esters. It's about the glucose. Limit dextrinase gives you more glucose than if you'd just do an infusion in the middle of alpha/beta-land, like 65C. Many people do infusions at 67C, but that's omitting the limit dextrinase, so they get a wort with less glucose, thus less esters.

You can also do a hermann-verfahren mash style, combined with a high ferm-temp is will yield you THE BOMB of all mothers of esters. But it's not necessarily a good thing. The ethyl acetate can be off the charts, to the point it tastes like solvent. You need really good temp-control during fermentation and bottle carbonation to be able to repeat it if you've found a combo you like with high glucose wort, and without the esters going haywire. And speise is the key for bottle conditioning.

The simplest way is just adding glucose.. but how fun is that.

Then you can combine it with higher ferm-temps. But basically, it starts in the mash.

I completely agree that step mashing and krausening/spunding is very important with these beers, especially if you are shooting for the true German flavor profile. A Hochkurz mash with a ferulic Acid Rest and spunding produces awesome results.

 

[Smellyglove]

I completely agree that step mashing and krausening/spunding is very important with these beers, especially if you are shooting for the true German flavor profile. A Hochkurz mash with a ferulic Acid Rest and spunding produces awesome results.

Indeed. Although to my taste I'd rather speise/krausen it because the second fermentation in the bottle gives a lot of flavor comparing to omitting it by spunding or force carbing it. The speise in the bottles, when done with a very high glocose wort (herrmann-mash), and without temp control on the bottles can yield so much esters that is passes the pleasant ethyl acetate threshold to the point it can taste like a medium nail polish, but if just left alone the yeast will bring back those levels back down to a super-fruity banana-split, but it's off when it comes to style profile. So temp-control during refermentation in bottle is very important when going for a maximum ester hefe.