BU:GU ratio and crystal malts

[Smellyglove]

I'm doing my first recipe where I just don't throw a bunch of hops into the kettle and hope for the best..

I've understood the BU:GU ratio, or at least somewhat. But crystal malts do add more sweetness than they add gravity units, don't they? And besides, not all dextrines taste sweet, like if you mash high the beer will not necessarily taste sweet if you use just a base malt.

So even if I hit a decent BU:GU ratio, I can still mess things up with the crystal malts?

 

[chickypad]

Yes, you can have a perfectly acceptable BU:GU ratio and still mess up with a bad recipe. BU:GU is one tool to use, or target to aim for, in designing a good beer but it is far from the whole story.

 

[brew_ny]

I like to use the chart

http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_ratio.html

for style with BU:GU ratio

all the best

S_M

 

[Smellyglove]

I like to use the chart

http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_ratio.html

for style with BU:GU ratio

all the best

S_M

Yes. But my question is more like this:

If I have a recipe with 100% pale malt. Take away 10% of that pale malt and add an equal amount of crystal.
If the GUs end up the same, so I get the same BU:GU ratio as I had before adding the crystal. Will it taste sweeter than before, since it's crystal malts and not just pale malt..?

 

[JKaranka]

Yeah, the BU:GU ratio is a very overrated and flawed tool. Also, the numbers it gives by default that imply that 1 is balanced are rather misleading. It's just one of those shortcuts that appeal to people who want rules for everything (a bit like BJCP guidelines).

 

[JKaranka]

It also does not take into account grist composition, attenuation, aging, etc.

 

[Smellyglove]

It also does not take into account grist composition, attenuation, aging, etc.

I'm aware of that. Hence the question about crystals regarding grist composition.

It sort of makes more sense to apply the ratio rule before the fermentation, and tailor the fermentation with the choice of yeast when it comes to attenuation. Even though I guess the ratio should represent the final product.

 

[Weezy]

All of those factors do impact the effect, i.e. resulting taste of the beer. I find BU:GU quite useful, personally, especially when you're brewing smaller beers. I think in terms of a preferred or target ratio based on the beer style, which is how Ray Daniel's used it. IPAs are commonly 0.9-1.2. I like my pale ales 0.7-0.8. Ordinary Bitters at 0.4. American brown at 0.7. Thinking in terms of the style takes care of the miscellaneous beer specific factors like % of caramel malt, attenuation, etc. If you're brewing a beer that's very far from a style, it may not be very useful.

Keep in mind that it's really only describing a bitterness level and not trying to describe more than that. It's helpful to have a target number in mind when working on recipes. A good example for me is American pale ales. I brew them at 3.5% abv and at 5% abv. I know I prefer bitterness in APA at 0.7-0.8 BU:GU ratio. Formulating the recipe, i'll watch the BU:GU number instead of the IBUs. Since the IBUs will vary so much depending on OG. at 1.035, it might be 25 IBUs while it might be 45 at 1.053, but they'll both end up with a similar bitterness profile.

It's a simple, useful tool.

 

[Smellyglove]

All of those factors do impact the effect, i.e. resulting taste of the beer. I find BU:GU quite useful, personally, especially when you're brewing smaller beers. I think in terms of a preferred or target ratio based on the beer style, which is how Ray Daniel's used it. IPAs are commonly 0.9-1.2. I like my pale ales 0.7-0.8. Ordinary Bitters at 0.4. American brown at 0.7. Thinking in terms of the style takes care of the miscellaneous beer specific factors like % of caramel malt, attenuation, etc. If you're brewing a beer that's very far from a style, it may not be very useful.

Keep in mind that it's really only describing a bitterness level and not trying to describe more than that. It's helpful to have a target number in mind when working on recipes. A good example for me is American pale ales. I brew them at 3.5% abv and at 5% abv. I know I prefer bitterness in APA at 0.7-0.8 BU:GU ratio. Formulating the recipe, i'll watch the BU:GU number instead of the IBUs. Since the IBUs will vary so much depending on OG. at 1.035, it might be 25 IBUs while it might be 45 at 1.053, but they'll both end up with a similar bitterness profile.

It's a simple, useful tool.

Thanks for a good reply. Totally forgotten about higher OG extracts more IBUs.

But still. Will it be perceived as more sweet if I exchange 10% of an all basemalt grist, with crystal malts, even if the BU:GU ratio stays the same? What I'm actually asking is if crystals are noticeably sweeter than a base malt. I know there are differences in basemalts, but are the crystals overall more sweet?

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for a good reply. Totally forgotten about higher OG extracts more IBUs.

It's not OG extracting more IBUs, it's about balancing malt level to bitterness level in the final beer. Lighter body beer with same IBUs will be. Much more bitter than a bigger beer with same IBUs.

But still. Will it be perceived as more sweet if I exchange 10% of an all basemalt grist, with crystal malts, even if the BU:GU ratio stays the same? What I'm actually asking is if crystals are noticeably sweeter than a base malt. I know there are differences in basemalts, but are the crystals overall more sweet?

By definition, crystal malts will be more sweet than base malts. That's independent of BU:GU ratio. The BU:GU ratio of two beers that are different by 10% crystal likely should be different. You're going to have to judge by taste after you brew. Say you target 0.7 the first time you brew it and it's too bitter... try 0.6 next time. Here's not going to be a rule anyone can give for a beer A with zero crystal and beer B with 10% crystal.

 

[Smellyglove]

It's not OG extracting more IBUs, it's about balancing malt level to bitterness level in the final beer. Lighter body beer with same IBUs will be. Much more bitter than a bigger beer with same IBUs.



By definition, crystal malts will be more sweet than base malts. That's independent of BU:GU ratio. The BU:GU ratio of two beers that are different by 10% crystal likely should be different. You're going to have to judge by taste after you brew. Say you target 0.7 the first time you brew it and it's too bitter... try 0.6 next time. Here's not going to be a rule anyone can give for a beer A with zero crystal and beer B with 10% crystal.

Then how can it be that (what you wrote earlier) that lover OG yields lower IBUs and higher OG higher IBUs? I know that they balance eachother, but from what I read from your previous post you actually get more IBUs with higher gravity.

Or did I misunderstand? I was under the assumption that both examples have the same amount of hops.

Edit: just to add to the confusion, you're right, I got this completely wrong. If you'd extract more IBUs with higher OG then people growing hops would go banckcrupt since you could add 1g of hops and still get it bitter enough with higher OG.

 

[Weezy]

You're looking at it backwards.

BU:GU of 0.7
OG 1.034 means GU=34
34 x 0.7 = 24 BU, which means you want 24 IBUs to reach that level of malt-to-bitterness in that beer.

OG=1.055 --> 55x0.7=39 IBUs are needed to get the same bitterness feel as the other beer.

Its just a ratio. Its not saying putting 1 oz of Warrior in a 1.055 beer is going to get you more IBUs than if you put that same 1 oz in a 1.034 beer. Quite the contrary. It' s telling you that 1 oz of Warrior boiled for 60 minutes is gong to make the overall beer experience seem more bitter in the 1.034 beer vs. The 1.055, even though the actual IBUs are the same in both beers. i.e. 50 IBUs will be perceived as much more bitter in the 1.034 beer since it does not have as much malt body to balance it.

The ability (or not) of differing gravity worts to extract more or less IBUs out of a given hop is not a part of this subject whatsoever. BU:GU isall about the perception of your taste buds.

 

[GuldTuborg]

But still. Will it be perceived as more sweet if I exchange 10% of an all basemalt grist, with crystal malts, even if the BU:GU ratio stays the same? What I'm actually asking is if crystals are noticeably sweeter than a base malt. I know there are differences in basemalts, but are the crystals overall more sweet?

This seems to be the question that's been overlooked, so I'll take a stab at it.

If you swap out 10% of base malt for crystal, but keep everything else the same, it's unlikely you'll end up with the same FG. Lighter crystal malts are pretty fermentable, but the darker ones (80-100L+) are only around 50% fermentable. So even though crystal malts typically give slightly less extract (PPG), you still may end up with a higher FG.

Color also matters when it comes to sweetness. Lighter crystal malts are usually sweeter. Definitely moreso than most base malts. The darkest ones have other flavors, but sweet, as such, is one I generally don't get very much of.

There are ways to augment all of these results, of course, by changing other variables in the recipe and fermentation schedule. I don't know if that is at all helpful. Let me know if there's something else I didn't touch on, or that I didn't get to in enough detail.

 

[GuldTuborg]

BU:GU is all about the perception of your taste buds.

No, it's all about how certain things get measured. The taste from any number of recipes with the same BU:GU ratio will be wildly different.

You can make a beer with only bittering hop additions, and then one hopbursted to the same BU:GU ratio. Guess which one most people are going to point to as the hoppier, or more bitter, beer?

 

[Yooper]

Then how can it be that (what you wrote earlier) that lover OG yields lower IBUs and higher OG higher IBUs? I know that they balance eachother, but from what I read from your previous post you actually get more IBUs with higher gravity.

Or did I misunderstand? I was under the assumption that both examples have the same amount of hops.

Edit: just to add to the confusion, you're right, I got this completely wrong. If you'd extract more IBUs with higher OG then people growing hops would go banckcrupt since you could add 1g of hops and still get it bitter enough with higher OG.

Yes, in a beer with the same exact hops, the IBU/SG ratio will be less in the beer with the higher OG, and more in the lower OG beer.

What that means is simple. You have 35 IBUs in a beer. In a beer of 1.035 OG, that beer will be pretty darn bitter- 1.000 ratio! In a beer of 1.090, that beer will not be bitter at all, and actually quite sweet if the IBUs are 35, at .38 ratio! That's why the ratio is valuable. It's simply a tool to look at the beer in whole, and and the balance between the OG and the IBUs.

 

[Weezy]

BU:GU doesn't apply well to west coast IPAs/DIPAs. For 99.99% of the rest of the beers on the planet, it can be a worthwhile tool.

 

[GuldTuborg]

It's most useful when comparing beers within the same style, and for making changes in a recipe.

It's also useful to know the limitations of a tool. In this case, it ignores timing of hop additions, grist composition, and FG (being the factors most likely to influence how useful this is). No doubt it's a useful tool, but only if used well.

 

[Smellyglove]

You're looking at it backwards.

BU:GU of 0.7
OG 1.034 means GU=34
34 x 0.7 = 24 BU, which means you want 24 IBUs to reach that level of malt-to-bitterness in that beer.

OG=1.055 --> 55x0.7=39 IBUs are needed to get the same bitterness feel as the other beer.

Its just a ratio. Its not saying putting 1 oz of Warrior in a 1.055 beer is going to get you more IBUs than if you put that same 1 oz in a 1.034 beer. Quite the contrary. It' s telling you that 1 oz of Warrior boiled for 60 minutes is gong to make the overall beer experience seem more bitter in the 1.034 beer vs. The 1.055, even though the actual IBUs are the same in both beers. i.e. 50 IBUs will be perceived as much more bitter in the 1.034 beer since it does not have as much malt body to balance it.

The ability (or not) of differing gravity worts to extract more or less IBUs out of a given hop is not a part of this subject whatsoever. BU:GU isall about the perception of your taste buds.

Thanks for the math-tip. Now I have a better perception for crafting future recipes.