Brutus Electrical Help?

[mmurray]

I'm in the process of building my brutus, with changes/modifications, but I would like someone else's opinion (I know I just asked for it! LOL:cross on my wireing and the components I believe I need.

So to start, my plan is to have my panel across the front instead of on the side. With that, I would like to go 24vDC in the panel for safety since 110vAC and water don't mix as well. I plan on puting the 110v AC in a waterproof enclosure in the base of the stand.

One of the first issues I have is theTS2-040 Temp Controller. This controller is 24vDC and my mind tells me that the output to the solenoid will also be 24vDC, but I can't find anywhere that tells me that! All I find is

Output: 15A SPDT relay @ 250 VAC resistive 5A inductive.

on the controller specs. It's just confused me, as in, does this put out 250vAC somehow and I need the solenoid valve to be 250vAC now?
Now just to clarify, my original plan was to have a 24vDC Love controller and 24vDC Solenoid Valve! Is that exactly what I need? Am I over thinking this, because I'd think a 24v controller would be 24vDC for all functions?

Next question... Given that the above is correct and I stay on the 24vDC path, I am going to list what I planned on buying and can you tell me if I am correct?
I'll start with the24v Power Supply.
Next the 24v Switches (note: 2 of the switches will be 3 position, so that I can have Constant ON to solenoid valve if I ever want to have that, OFF, and 3rd position is ON controlled by temp controller)
Now for the SSR's
Other than terminal busses and such am I missing anything and is this all correct? Below I will post my crude diagram and will explain my actions. One question I do have is do I need to have any type of fuse between the pump and relay? The relay being 10a and the pump only drawing 1.4a, that's a larger amperage swing before the relay kicks. If so, whats the best and most cost effective way to do that?

For the explination: 110v AC power comes in (I know it's not drawn exactly) and the ground and neutral go to the busses then feed the 24vDC power supply. The 110v hot feeds the power supply and breaks off to the load input on the SSR. With the 24vDC powered the 24v- feeds the ground buss and the 24v+ goes into the main switch. When on the 24v+ feeds the 24vDC Buss and activates the Main SSR that then allows the 110vAC power to pumps. After this all components will be powered. TCU's will be on and the 3 pos. switch will either have the solenoid ON/OFF/TCU Controlled. The Pumps will have SSR's interupting the 110vAC Hot Lead and the 24vDC switches will open and close the SSR circuit to run the pumps.

Final Questions: Is this a coherant thought process? Will this work as described and are the parts listed appropriate for what I want to do?

 

[kilted_brews]

Ok, let me start out by saying that I have not built one of these before but I am a Journeyman Electrician so I will try to answer some of your electrical questions.

One of the first issues I have is theTS2-040 Temp Controller. This controller is 24vDC and my mind tells me that the output to the solenoid will also be 24vDC, but I can't find anywhere that tells me that! All I find is
Quote:
Output: 15A SPDT relay @ 250 VAC resistive 5A inductive.
on the controller specs. It's just confused me, as in, does this put out 250vAC somehow and I need the solenoid valve to be 250vAC now?
Now just to clarify, my original plan was to have a 24vDC Love controller and 24vDC Solenoid Valve! Is that exactly what I need? Am I over thinking this, because I'd think a 24v controller would be 24vDC for all functions?

The acronym SPDT stands for single-pole double-throw. This basically describes the action used to switch the load. In a nut shell, this type of switch allows the user to toggle two electrical paths simultaneously on or off. The rest of the output description is a rating for the relay that does the switching. So it is a 15A relay that can handle up to 250 VAC with a resistive load or 5A for an inductive load. If you are using this to control a solenoid then that would be an inductive load so you would need to be sure that your 24Vdc solenoid did not draw more than 5A (I doubt it would).

One question I do have is do I need to have any type of fuse between the pump and relay? The relay being 10a and the pump only drawing 1.4a, that's a larger amperage swing before the relay kicks. If so, whats the best and most cost effective way to do that?

I would fuse the line side (input) of the 120v supply before going to the SSR. The SSR will not trip due to an over current situation, it will simply fail. It is never a bad idea to provide extra coverage for over current or ground fault situations. You can get fuse holders from most electrical supply houses that will allow you to do that. Something to keep in mind is that although your pumps say they draw 1.4A that will be the running amperage. During start-up your pumps will draw more amps so you need to size any over-current protection accordingly. If you give me more info about the pumps I can look it up and tell you what that might be.

Final Questions: Is this a coherant thought process? Will this work as described and are the parts listed appropriate for what I want to do?

Electrically this sounds like the right game plan. A couple of things that I'm sure you have thought about but I feel like are worth mentioning. First, in your drawing you have the 24vdv power supply labeled as a 24v transformer. A transformer will not give you a dc voltage. You will need a 120vac to 24vdc power supply to accomplish this. Lastly, sse a GFCI outlet to plug this into. That is the kind of outlet with the test and reset button on the face. These provide a much fast trip in the event water gets where it shouldn't and they will keep you much safer from electric shock. Any regular outlet can be changed to a GFCI so you can locate one where you plan on brewing.

 

[mmurray]

Thank you for the help, before I throw money down, I just want to make sure...

If you are using this to control a solenoid then that would be an inductive load so you would need to be sure that your 24Vdc solenoid did not draw more than 5A (I doubt it would).

So you would agree that 24v DC Love TS2-040 connected to a 24v DC Solenoid Valve would work just as Lonnie Mac's 110v AC version does in his plan as long as the solenoid draws less than 5amps? That is how I thought it was to work, but without it being "Spelled out" like that in the specs I got nervous and a little confused.

I would fuse the line side (input) of the 120v supply before going to the SSR. The SSR will not trip due to an over current situation, it will simply fail. It is never a bad idea to provide extra coverage for over current or ground fault situations. You can get fuse holders from most electrical supply houses that will allow you to do that. Something to keep in mind is that although your pumps say they draw 1.4A that will be the running amperage. During start-up your pumps will draw more amps so you need to size any over-current protection accordingly. If you give me more info about the pumps I can look it up and tell you what that might be.

Here is the link to Chugger pumps. I didn't see it on the write up, but on the pump itself it does say 1.4amps.
Now I just need to fuse the 110v line between the buss and the SSR, would a 5amp fuse be too much or should I go smaller?

Electrically this sounds like the right game plan. A couple of things that I'm sure you have thought about but I feel like are worth mentioning. First, in your drawing you have the 24vdv power supply labeled as a 24v transformer. A transformer will not give you a dc voltage. You will need a 120vac to 24vdc power supply to accomplish this. Lastly, sse a GFCI outlet to plug this into. That is the kind of outlet with the test and reset button on the face. These provide a much fast trip in the event water gets where it shouldn't and they will keep you much safer from electric shock. Any regular outlet can be changed to a GFCI so you can locate one where you plan on brewing.

Yeah, I was just thinking transformer, but yes I plan on using the 24v power supply listed as the DC source. And I'll be brewing on my back patio/outdoor kitchen area and we went GFCI crazy! I have 9 plugs out there and they all have their very own GFCI outlet! Played it safe than sorry LOL!

One last thing... the SSR that I'm useing as the "Main SSR" to continue the 110v to the busses that eventually feed the pumps is a 10amp SSR! Is that enough or should I go with the next step up which is 25amps? The only thing being fed on 110v will be the two pumps which will be a combined 2.8amps... I think I just answered my own question, but just to make sure!

Thanks for the help!

Mark

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Hey Mark... hose parts came in... shipping Monday

 

[kilted_brews]

So you would agree that 24v DC Love TS2-040 connected to a 24v DC Solenoid Valve would work just as Lonnie Mac's 110v AC version does in his plan as long as the solenoid draws less than 5amps? That is how I thought it was to work, but without it being "Spelled out" like that in the specs I got nervous and a little confused.

Yes I think this should work. I don't understand why it wouldn't. All that should be going on with the output would be the opening and closing of a contact. As long as the contacts rating isn't exceeded then it should operate fine within that range. The thing I am unsure about is with the manufactures drawn schematics. They state the output is a SPDT but if I was looking at the correct drawing, then they have it drawn as one common line with a corresponding normally open and normally closed set of contacts. The way I see it one of two situations will be going on with this controller, either:
1)the controller uses the supplied operating voltage as the output voltage or
2)the controller uses a specific voltage to operate and then switches whatever auxiliary voltage is placed on the contacts.
Either way IMO the 24vdc controller should work with your 24vdc solenoids.

Here is the link to Chugger pumps. I didn't see it on the write up, but on the pump itself it does say 1.4amps.
Now I just need to fuse the 110v line between the buss and the SSR, would a 5amp fuse be too much or should I go smaller?

I didn't see any ratings for starting amps on the pumps either but a 5A fuse is slightly more than 175% of the running voltage for the two pumps. Should be plenty, I can't see 2 1/20 hp pumps drawing more than that even during start up but if they did, fuses are cheap and you can get a larger amperage fuse that should fit in the same fuse block.

One last thing... the SSR that I'm useing as the "Main SSR" to continue the 110v to the busses that eventually feed the pumps is a 10amp SSR! Is that enough or should I go with the next step up which is 25amps? The only thing being fed on 110v will be the two pumps which will be a combined 2.8amps... I think I just answered my own question, but just to make sure!

Being rated at more than 350% of the full load amps for the motors, the 10A SSR will be perfect.

Hope this helps! Keep me posted on your build

 

[mmurray]

Hey Mark... hose parts came in... shipping Monday

Awesome! Thanks!

Welding the stand in the morning!

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Photos! Photos! Photos!

 

[mmurray]

I didn't see any ratings for starting amps on the pumps either but a 5A fuse is slightly more than 175% of the running voltage for the two pumps. Should be plenty, I can't see 2 1/20 hp pumps drawing more than that even during start up but if they did, fuses are cheap and you can get a larger amperage fuse that should fit in the same fuse block.

Awesome! Thanks for all the help!

What do you think of these?

This is a stock photo and the one I was looking at was actually a 5amp push button reset circuit breaker.
Would this hold up or is a fuse better?

 

[mmurray]

Photos! Photos! Photos!

We'll be taking plenty!

 

[kilted_brews]

Would this hold up or is a fuse better?

Looks good to me. The obvious advantage of a circuit breaker is being able to reset it rather than having to replace a blown fuse. I say go with it.

I also just noticed that in my previous post I stated that 5A was more than 175% of the running voltage for the 2 pumps. That should have read: 5A is more than 175% for the running AMPERAGE of the 2 pumps. Just a technicality but I wanted to clarify what I meant to post.