BruControl: Brewery control & automation software

[RiverCityBrewer]

Its going to depend more specifically on the model... looks like some just have 2x 4-20ma/0-10v inputs and some models support up to 2x thermocouples directly. If it supports a PT100 directly, then you are good... if not then you will need a transmitter board to generate your 4-20ma or 0-10v signal.

 

[aeviaanah]

In place of the wall wort you linked, can I hard wire the supply end of a micro usb cable to a 5v power supply? Otherwise ill have to install an AC receptacle in my panel (which i have)

The power supply I have is below. This same power supply also brings 5v to (3) rp-3 boards.

https://www.amazon.com/BINZET-Conve...v+step+down+transformer&qid=1585850475&sr=8-3

Eliminate the battery backup and its a direct connect Micro USB from the power supply into the MEGA.

What do you mean by eliminate the battery? I thought this is required to provide the power in the event of an outage? Are you saying this board is an option (without battery) to help regulate the power to Mega?

I have a few 600mAh, 3.7v batteries laying around..will these work or should I buy something larger?

 

[Tartan1]

What do you mean by eliminate the battery? I thought this is required to provide the power in the event of an outage? Are you saying this board is an option (without battery) to help regulate the power to Mega?

To clarify

Option#1 Battery Backup... requires Power Boost Board, Lithium Battery ( I used https://www.adafruit.com/product/354} associated USB cable, PS, and push button switch https://www.adafruit.com/product/3064 if you want to shut off the Battery Backup when the MEGA is powered down/OFF. I shut my panel down completely when its not being used for brewing/fermentaion purposes. The switch takes the battery offline so you don't drain it during non use. That being said the switch needs to be turned back on to charge the batteries while panel is active to protect the integrity of the backup circuit. The switch can be mounted inside or outside the panel for easy access.

Option#2 PS only (no backup) direct connect to MEGA via Micro USB cable. You wont require the Power Boost Board for this. Power Boost is for charging the lithium battery pack only.

***Direct powering of the MEGA via micro USB bypasses the onboard voltage regulator which can overheat in certain circumstances when powering via VIN. The regulator takes eg..12VDC via VIN down to approx 5VDC, but can cause excessive heat on the regulator if the voltage is not burn't off. In my case excessive heat even with a heat sink on the regulator was causing disconnects.
Direct powering via Micro USB worked for my setup which powers 4 proportional valves, 6 X 3-way valves, 5 X 24VDC pumps, 2 x Flow Sensors, and a pressure sensor, temp probes, and a bunch of other relays for 120VAC outlets. No hiccups since I made the changeover.***

Also as an FYI if you go with the Power Boost board you will have to solder the provided 3 pin USB connector to the board. Mine arrived with the USB attached to the board, press fitted and while handling the board it dropped out into my sink and just about down the drain.

 

[BrunDog]

I want to be sensitive to what is going on in our world right now... with almost every one of us affected individually and economically by COVID. So please understand my UniShield post, and this one, aren't meant to assume we are free to spend money perhaps like we did a few weeks ago. I looking forward to recovery so we get on with life! In the meantime, for those spending more time at home, I hope you are making more beer!!

Here is a new SBC (Single Board Computer) that just hit the market. Pretty good looking board at $218, with a 8GB of memory, 64B of storage, a Celeron processor, AND it has an Arduino/BruControl compatible microcontroller and header ON BOARD! You could build a single board solution in a control box if you wanted. We'll source one and test it at some point!

Link: https://www.seeedstudio.com/ODYSSEY-X86J4105800-p-4445.html

 

[aeviaanah]

Interested! How does the micro controller compare to the mega IO?
Could this be a direct swap with mega?

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Looking at the datasheet, GPIO options range from 26 to 52 pins, so half to nearly all the general IO. Due to IO differences and size, it is not likely to be a direct swap for the mega.

http://files.seeedstudio.com/products/102110399/Documents/Atmel-SAMD21-datasheet.pdf

 

[BrunDog]

It's not a direct swap. It uses the SAMD21 micro... that is the same as the Feather M0, so porting is easy. Looks like they are connected UART so it *should* work out of the box using the Feather firmware and the serial connection. This may not fully expose all the I/O such as ports 2, 4, 7, 8 since these are normally reserved for the Wi-Fi communications on the Feather WINC1500, but we can easily open those up.

Interestingly there is also general purpose I/O right on the board (with R-Pi compatible header). I think it is not a good idea to use them here since the OS is not real-time.

 

[aeviaanah]

In place of the wall wort you linked, can I hard wire the supply end of a micro usb cable to a 5v power supply? Otherwise ill have to install an AC receptacle in my panel (which i have)

The power supply I have is below. This same power supply also brings 5v to (3) rp-3 boards.

https://www.amazon.com/BINZET-Converter-Regulator-Regulated-Transformer/dp/B00J3MHRNO/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=24v+to+5v+step+down+transformer&qid=1585850475&sr=View attachment 673890

I have the power booster, switch and battery on order. Can someone help with the question above? Curious the best way to provide power to the power booster and if I can use the existing 24v to 5v step down

 

[swimIan]

I want to be sensitive to what is going on in our world right now... with almost every one of us affected individually and economically by COVID. So please understand my UniShield post, and this one, aren't meant to assume we are free to spend money perhaps like we did a few weeks ago. I looking forward to recovery so we get on with life! In the meantime, for those spending more time at home, I hope you are making more beer!!

Here is a new SBC (Single Board Computer) that just hit the market. Pretty good looking board at $218, with a 8GB of memory, 64B of storage, a Celeron processor, AND it has an Arduino/BruControl compatible microcontroller and header ON BOARD! You could build a single board solution in a control box if you wanted. We'll source one and test it at some point!

Link: https://www.seeedstudio.com/ODYSSEY-X86J4105800-p-4445.html

Personally I really like something like this. It’s one neat package. May not be as flexible though. Way too much money for me though.

 

[aeviaanah]

I have 5(soon to be 6) 9kw dernord 2" Tri-Clamp 3-phase heating elements, and run them in 2 pairs and a single... I am doing distilling, not boil-kettle, but it is still boiling, so I have them cycle down at temps, bot the liquid and the vapor temp above (and it is a Bain-marie kettle, not direct element, so I monitor the boiler jacket temp and pressure also)

coming from BCS, I ran it like that, with different 'states', and exit conditions for the state, and a variable displaying the 'state' name on the screen...

Can you provide a link to the 9kw 3 phase elements?

 

[aeviaanah]

Then take the one PID output from the arduino and branch that out to the common terminal on 3 of the relays. Take the NO output from these 3 relays and feed that to the input of your high voltage/power SSR/relays that you are using to switch the 3 different heating elements. Then you turn the 3 different outputs on/off depending on how much power you want at that time.

This implementation may be overkill. In reality, you may find that hooking 2 elements up to just be on/off and the third to be set for PID might work well. When heating you would have all 3 on all the time, until you reached your target or an offset below the target. Then you could switch to only having one element on and in PID mode to maintain temperature. As long as you can maintain temperature with one element then this would probably be the easiest implementation and would eliminate the need for the 4 channel relay board above.

If i understand this correctly, you are saying it is ok to use output from Mega direct to 24v coil side of contactors. Specs below...

I thought the Mega is 5v output and I purchased 24v contactors. If my understanding is correct, how does 5v provide enough volts to power a 24v coil? Also, will the 9w draw (x3 contactors = 18w) be too much draw from the single PID output on Mega- thought these were rated around 40mA? What am I missing here?

 

[BrunDog]

I'm not inspecting that conversation closely... but: 1. 5V will not drive a 24V device directly, and 2. the MEGA certainly cannot deliver enough current to drive a coil (any coil) directly.

Always make sure that any device driven by an interface output does not exceed its microcontroller limit(s). For the MEGA, you should keep it to under 15mA per pin (that's 0.015A - basically nothing). You always need a solid state front-end to switch low current into high current (example: solid state relay / transistor / etc.). For example, the relay boards we often use have this intermediate front-end circuitry built in. This is why we made the UniShields - to eliminate this headache.

 

[aeviaanah]

I'm not inspecting that conversation closely... but: 1. 5V will not drive a 24V device directly, and 2. the MEGA certainly cannot deliver enough current to drive a coil (any coil) directly.

Always make sure that any device driven by an interface output does not exceed its microcontroller limit(s). For the MEGA, you should keep it to under 15mA per pin (that's 0.015A - basically nothing). You always need a solid state front-end to switch low current into high current (example: solid state relay / transistor / etc.). For example, the relay boards we often use have this intermediate front-end circuitry built in. This is why we made the UniShields - to eliminate this headache.

I had a feeling my interpretation of what @crane is suggesting is either wrong or crane doesnt understand the components (specifically the contactors) I have.
My end goal is to use a single PID to drive (3) elements. Each element will have a switch via digital out that allows for separate on/off control either manual or script. This same scenario will occur in HLT and Kettle hence why I have (6) contactors.

I have pretty much a clean slate to work with as I'm still in planning/wiring phase. I am open to ideas if you have any suggestions. The picture below is the current state of the panel. I had each relay wired to coil side of the contactors but Ive since disconnected those.

 

[BrunDog]

You can use a single binary type output (whether it be a PID, duty cycle, whatever) to drive as many elements as you want. Just need to make sure that each chain in the link is strong enough not to break. It looks like from your picture (can't say for certain without a matching schematic) you have the MEGA outputs going to the relay boards. This is good - they have transistor front ends. From there, those relays can switch power to the contactors. Not sure why you disconnected the relays?

I know I sound like a broken record, but what the heck... you should always draft up a schematic to go with your physical wiring. This way the design can be validated first.

 

[aeviaanah]

You can use a single binary type output (whether it be a PID, duty cycle, whatever) to drive as many elements as you want. Just need to make sure that each chain in the link is strong enough not to break. It looks like from your picture (can't say for certain without a matching schematic) you have the MEGA outputs going to the relay boards. This is good - they have transistor front ends. From there, those relays can switch power to the contactors. Not sure why you disconnected the relays?

I know I sound like a broken record, but what the heck... you should always draft up a schematic to go with your physical wiring. This way the design can be validated first.

My last post on the topic has a schematic attached for the proposed change. I know the configuration from the relays to the contactors work I was trying to improve my design based on @crane suggestion. This required wiring changes which I was in the middle of verifying in my last few posts (hence why they are disconnected).

It sounds like you are recommending to keep it as I originally had it and use BC to meet this goal. How do you propose I link the (3) digital outs to the PID output? Are you suggesting some script work? Again, I basically want PID running with switches to enable/disable the output of this PID.

 

[Tartan1]

I had a feeling my interpretation of what @crane is suggesting is either wrong or crane doesnt understand the components (specifically the contactors) I have.
My end goal is to use a single PID to drive (3) elements. Each element will have a switch via digital out that allows for separate on/off control either manual or script. This same scenario will occur in HLT and Kettle hence why I have (6) contactors.

I'm not familiar with the contactor type you are using but are they the traditional magnetic contact coil type or more solid state like an SSR? Reason I ask is have you considered the electrical noise created when a traditional magnetic coil contactor engages and releases high voltage? I had numerous disconnects of my MEGA when switching from my HLT to Boil elements and had to install snubbers across the coils to subdue the electromagnetic noise created upon disconnect. Also if these are magnetic type contact coils you could end up shortening the life of the coil contacts with all the on/off cycling of the PID driving them.
I think you would be better off having your relay setup drive the 24VDC coil on the contactor ON/OFF and then have the PID drive an SSR control input which then controls the high voltage (240VAC) from the contactor thru the SSR.

 

[aeviaanah]

I'm not familiar with the contactor type you are using but are they the traditional magnetic contact coil type or more solid state like an SSR? Reason I ask is have you considered the electrical noise created when a traditional magnetic coil contactor engages and releases high voltage? I had numerous disconnects of my MEGA when switching from my HLT to Boil elements and had to install snubbers across the coils to subdue the electromagnetic noise created upon disconnect. Also if these are magnetic type contact coils you could end up shortening the life of the coil contacts with all the on/off cycling of the PID driving them.
I think you would be better off having your relay setup drive the 24VDC coil on the contactor ON/OFF and then have the PID drive an SSR control input which then controls the high voltage (240VAC) from the contactor thru the SSR.

Yes, I have considered the electric noise. I have planned on using snubbers across the coils to help with noise as well. I dont have much experience with PID and was hoping there was some setting or something to reduce the on/off cycling. Perhaps a hysteresis would be better with the components I have?

I am controlling three elements for one control circuit. Are you saying to incorporate three contactors for ON/OFF and three SSRs for high voltage>?

 

[Tartan1]

I am controlling three elements for one control circuit. Are you saying to incorporate three contactors for ON/OFF and three SSRs for high voltage>?

Contactor coil ON/OFF thru a relay ( this limits the on/off cycles of the coil + noise) and PID control the input control side of the SSR's for your high voltage from the contactors. Basically you could energize (HLT+Boil)1-6 contactors using script or manual thru relays switching the Common 24VDC to the coils and drive how many elements you want active through a common PID's driving the SSR HLT and Boil.
Of course you would require 6 SSR's to make this happen.

 

[aeviaanah]

Contactor coil ON/OFF thru a relay ( this limits the on/off cycles of the coil + noise) and PID control the input control side of the SSR's for your high voltage from the contactors. Basically you could energize (HLT+Boil)1-6 contactors using script or manual thru relays switching the Common 24VDC to the coils and drive how many elements you want active through a common PID's driving the SSR HLT and Boil.

I currently have each contactor wired to relays and I dont see any issues when I fire the contactors via digital out. Tho I do not have a load on these, not sure it matters cuz I think its the coil side that causes EMI correct? Mega stays on and PT100 readings are stable.

Im stuck on the SSR recommendation. I understand using the PID with SSR as control circuit but are you saying one SSR per HLT and one SSR per kettle or one SSR per contactor? I am planning on 15kw 3phase elements which is why i went with contactors to begin with. Three elements at 15kw is 45k through a common SSR?

 

[Tartan1]

I currently have each contactor wired to relays and I dont see any issues when I fire the contactors via digital out. Tho I do not have a load on these, not sure it matters cuz I think its the coil side that causes EMI correct? Mega stays on and PT100 readings are stable.

Turning inductive loads on and off rapidly can produce a spark across the contacts thus causing EMI.

Im stuck on the SSR recommendation. I understand using the PID with SSR as control circuit but are you saying one SSR per HLT and one SSR per kettle or one SSR per contactor? I am planning on 12kw 3phase elements which is why i went with contactors to begin with.

Depends, you could as @crane mentions above try PID controling 1 phase thru an SSR and manually switch the other 2 phases (from relay) for quick heating to just below target temp then switch 2 phases off and let the PID take the remaining phase to target. As mentioned 6 SSR's may be overkill but not sure there would be any advantage to achieving target temps since you would be dealing a large mass of heated water/wort almost at the setpoint.

 

[aeviaanah]

Turning inductive loads on and off rapidly can produce a spark across the contacts thus causing EMI.



Depends, you could as @crane mentions above try PID controling 1 phase thru an SSR and manually switch the other 2 phases (from relay) for quick heating to just below target temp then switch 2 phases off and let the PID take the remaining phase to target. As mentioned 6 SSR's may be overkill but not sure there would be any advantage to achieving target temps since you would be dealing a large mass of heated water/wort almost at the setpoint.

I agree with you and crane, having each element on SSR is probably overkill. I didnt realize crane was suggesting having one phase go through SSR and the others through contactors, I have no clue how to split the phases up- this is a beyond my understanding. What do you think about having (1) 3phase element controlled with hysteresis (use on offset to limit contactor firing) the other (2) elements simply on/off to get to setpoint?

I see this setup a bit underkill for controlling mash due to the typical desire to nail temperatures over time but this will be in HLT and Kettle. We are single infusion no mashout in our infancy as we wont be recirculating mash through HERMS or RIMS.

 

[aeviaanah]

You can use a single binary type output (whether it be a PID, duty cycle, whatever) to drive as many elements as you want. Just need to make sure that each chain in the link is strong enough not to break.

Are you saying the single binary type output drives the various heat elements via script? This makes sense to me but I wanted to achieve this without script if possible, that being achieved with hardware or BC elements.

 

[Tartan1]

I didnt realize crane was suggesting having one phase go through SSR and the others through contactors

I think what @crane was getting at was having 1 PID controlling 3 relays using the Common and feeding into 3 SSR's... 1 for each phase then switch 1-2-3 elements on as required.

You can simply use 2 digital outputs as an on/off switch (manual or script) for 2 phases and the 3rd put through an SSR under PID control.

I think you will run into the same cycling problem using hysteresis without going through an SSR. I believe using PID for kettle temp control is more precise than hysteresis but I could be wrong in my interpretation of it.

 

[aeviaanah]

I think what @crane was getting at was having 1 PID controlling 3 relays using the Common and feeding into 3 SSR's... 1 for each phase then switch 1-2-3 elements on as required.

You can simply use 2 digital outputs as an on/off switch (manual or script) for 2 phases and the 3rd put through an SSR under PID control.

I think you will run into the same cycling problem using hysteresis without going through an SSR. I believe using PID for kettle temp control is more precise than hysteresis but I could be wrong in my interpretation of it.

To clarify, when you say "phase" are you talking about single phase/three phase etc -or- are you describing the elements or circuits involved?

 

[Tartan1]

To clarify, when you say "phase" are you talking about single phase/three phase etc -or- are you describing the elements or circuits involved?

L1 L2 L3

 

[DoubleHaulBrewing]

Has anyone tried other MAX31865 PT100 amplifier boards for use with the RP-3 boards that BrunDog sells. With Adafruit out of stock on their board and shipping limited to health care only I was curious if the one below would work or anyone had tried it. Got burned with a different LCD previously so thought I better ask first. Thanks.

HiLetgo-MAX31865 - Amazon

 

[aeviaanah]

I think what @crane was getting at was having 1 PID controlling 3 relays using the Common and feeding into 3 SSR's... 1 for each phase then switch 1-2-3 elements on as required.

You can simply use 2 digital outputs as an on/off switch (manual or script) for 2 phases and the 3rd put through an SSR under PID control.

I think you will run into the same cycling problem using hysteresis without going through an SSR. I believe using PID for kettle temp control is more precise than hysteresis but I could be wrong in my interpretation of it.

I have three elements each with three phases. Your saying run 2 phases of each element through digital outputs and the remaining phase of each element through separate SSR?

 

[BrunDog]

Lots to digest / regurgitate...

1. Let's not get wrapped up in PID or hysteresis. Either will work fine. Heating water is straightforward and doesn't need advanced controls since as soon as you stop heating, the temp stops rising (unlike certain systems which have inherent "momentum"). BC will give you several options for controlling outputs (to the interface) and you have choose or use them at will. This is a software thing and does not care much about the downstream hardware.

2. You do not *need* SSR's, but you want them. You will need to manage EMI induced from inductive loads. Heating elements are not inductive and will not create noise when turning them on or off. SSRs are also not inductive and will not induce (pun intended) noise. I suggest zero-cross SSRs which will only switch when the potential across them is zero. Contactors are inductive themselves, and will produce noise two ways: First when discharging the contactor coil and when an arc is created across the opening contacts during full current (random due to sinusoidal current flow). Worse, you typically have a relay switching the contactor, which means TWO coils and sets of contacts. The relay boards typically have flyback diodes for their coils, but your contactors wont (and will need either diodes if DC or snubbers/MOV's if AC). So that said, I would recommend a contactor to switch power for safety and an SSR for switching power to elements from the interface output in #1 above. You need the contactor because a. the SSR will only switch one leg of the 240VAC circuit (unless you use 3 phase SSRs or 2x and switch both legs) and b. even then, they have leakage voltage (when its "off", you want it off) and c. when SSR's fail - they typically fail stuck ON.

3. Now regarding your size... you should select components that physically and feasibly meet the specifications. You can either use ONE contactor and ONE SSR tied to THREE elements - so long as the contactor, SSR, and associated wiring/circuit protection, terminal connections, etc. can handle the load. Alternatively, you could use ONE contactor, and THREE SSR's. Or THREE contactors and THREE SSRs. In this last config, you are basically running three circuits in parallel, but in the last two you could have discreet control over each SSR, meaning you could run one differently than the other - maybe that's a benefit to reduce power - dunno. You could run those 3x SSR's off one output (though SSR's draw ~12mA, so that's 36mA so you would need an intermediate transistorized circuit), or run each SSR off a different MEGA pin/port.

Lots of ramblings... sorry quarantine's got me nutty! Anyway, if it were me, and if you are looking for a recommendation in the weeds of the forrest I just grew for you, I would do as few contactors as needed to switch the load for safety, then one SSR per element. If it's three phase power you are switching, you will need 3 phase SSR's. You can run multiple PIDs driving multiple SSRs simultaneously, referencing the same input temp probe, and they will switch at exactly the same time.

Did you say you have schematic?

 

[aeviaanah]

Lots to digest / regurgitate...

1. Let's not get wrapped up in PID or hysteresis. Either will work fine. Heating water is straightforward and doesn't need advanced controls since as soon as you stop heating, the temp stops rising (unlike certain systems which have inherent "momentum"). BC will give you several options for controlling outputs (to the interface) and you have choose or use them at will. This is a software thing and does not care much about the downstream hardware.

Thankyou for breaking out by tree rather than forest.

I understand what your saying, dont get wrapped up in the components since BC allows to delete and add new as we see fit.

2. You do not *need* SSR's, but you want them. You will need to manage EMI induced from inductive loads. Heating elements are not inductive and will not create noise when turning them on or off. SSRs are also not inductive and will not induce (pun intended) noise. I suggest zero-cross SSRs which will only switch when the potential across them is zero. Contactors are inductive themselves, and will produce noise two ways: First when discharging the contactor coil and when an arc is created across the opening contacts during full current (random due to sinusoidal current flow). Worse, you typically have a relay switching the contactor, which means TWO coils and sets of contacts. The relay boards typically have flyback diodes for their coils, but your contactors wont (and will need either diodes if DC or snubbers/MOV's if AC). So that said, I would recommend a contactor to switch power for safety and an SSR for switching power to elements from the interface output in #1 above. You need the contactor because a. the SSR will only switch one leg of the 240VAC circuit (unless you use 3 phase SSRs or 2x and switch both legs) and b. even then, they have leakage voltage (when its "off", you want it off) and c. when SSR's fail - they typically fail stuck ON.

Regarding noise, I have the snubbers for the contactors and I believe we have confirmed the Salon board to have flyboack diodes on their coils to help with the noise they produce.

I currently own (6) 50amp 3phase contactors. Are you suggesting I bring 2 phases into each contactor to switch power for safety and the remaining phase through SSR for switching power to the elements? Should i be concerned with noise from contactor with a properly installed snubber? Or are you recommending SSR in the event that i do not install snubber?

3. Now regarding your size... you should select components that physically and feasibly meet the specifications. You can either use ONE contactor and ONE SSR tied to THREE elements - so long as the contactor, SSR, and associated wiring/circuit protection, terminal connections, etc. can handle the load. Alternatively, you could use ONE contactor, and THREE SSR's. Or THREE contactors and THREE SSRs. In this last config, you are basically running three circuits in parallel, but in the last two you could have discreet control over each SSR, meaning you could run one differently than the other - maybe that's a benefit to reduce power - dunno. You could run those 3x SSR's off one output (though SSR's draw ~12mA, so that's 36mA so you would need an intermediate transistorized circuit), or run each SSR off a different MEGA pin/port.

My contactors are sized correctly at one for each element. 15,000w element at 3 phase utilizing a single 50amp 3phase contactor.

My current thought is to have two sets of elements each with its own circuit and contactor devoted to ramp up- simple on/off till setpoint is acheived.. small amounts of cycling along with snubber should limit noise. Then I use the third element, 2 phases through a contactor (for safety) and the last phase through SSR for fine control. Although I still feel lost in a forest--- am I getting somethere? This whole phasing thing is where i begin to feel lost. A bit more information for the single element fine control would help me progress through to a diagram for review.

Lots of ramblings... sorry quarantine's got me nutty! Anyway, if it were me, and if you are looking for a recommendation in the weeds of the forrest I just grew for you, I would do as few contactors as needed to switch the load for safety, then one SSR per element. If it's three phase power you are switching, you will need 3 phase SSR's. You can run multiple PIDs driving multiple SSRs simultaneously, referencing the same input temp probe, and they will switch at exactly the same time.

Did you say you have schematic?

How do I quantify as few contactors that are needed? Separating the phases (still not sure if this is recommended or not) is spinning my mind. I plan on producing a schematic but I feel I need the details before I can sketch something out.

 

[BrunDog]

Did you say you have a schematic for this? What you are saying sounds ok but I don't want to give any advice without being exactly clear what you are building.