I would have walked out without having spent a single cent. Then called the owner and explained why I will never spend my money in his store again and why I will tell every other brewer I know what a bad shop they run.
Broke up with my LHBS today
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ArcaneXor
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What a childish attitude. Why not contact the owner, letting him know that you were displeased with the service, so that he can review and evaluate the situation? I am sick and tired of bashers who go running to public forums to complain about perceived bad service they received from some store employee instead of going to the owner first. If the owner blows you off, then go complain, but give the guy a chance to make it right first!
Dr. Francois
Well-Known Member
Or apply my policy with waitstaff at restaurants:
Hand out twice as many compliments as complaints. Then you're justified in complaining when the need arises.
When was the last time any of us called the owner to let him or her know about a stellar brew shop employee?
Speaking of which, I need to call my LHBS and tell them that the new guy is working out very well.
I have high standards for customer service. But abandoning a business without explanation does nothing to improve the problem (not that it's your problem, but still). When you stiff a waitress for bad service, more often than not they will just write you off as a cheapskate rather than admit they provided bad service. Telling the manager you were displeased gets the message across.
I say let the upper-managment know about the situation and your intended recourse.
Hand out twice as many compliments as complaints. Then you're justified in complaining when the need arises.
When was the last time any of us called the owner to let him or her know about a stellar brew shop employee?
Speaking of which, I need to call my LHBS and tell them that the new guy is working out very well.
I have high standards for customer service. But abandoning a business without explanation does nothing to improve the problem (not that it's your problem, but still). When you stiff a waitress for bad service, more often than not they will just write you off as a cheapskate rather than admit they provided bad service. Telling the manager you were displeased gets the message across.
I say let the upper-managment know about the situation and your intended recourse.
I don't know. Paying customer, trying to fill out a single recipe's requirements. It's not like someone trying to "Stock up" or resell them during a time of crisis.
The next guy can order them online. I would not fault a retailer fulfilling a customers reasonable request if they have cash in their hands.
The next guy can order them online. I would not fault a retailer fulfilling a customers reasonable request if they have cash in their hands.
That's kind of where I'm at. If they've had an issue being able to keep Centennial in stock (it's a pretty popular hop), I don't really blame them for not wanting to give out more than your recipe called for. You could sub in any other clean, high-alpha hop for part of the bittering addition and you would never know the difference.
Airplanedoc
Well-Known Member
forgive my ignorance as I am kind of new to the brewing thing.
Couldn't other customers do the same as well?
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Not if they need the Centennial for flavor/aroma additions (as is pretty common). They could sub in Cascade or something else, but that'll make their beers different. The OP could have used almost anything, since he was really just short for his bittering addition.
ao125
Well-Known Member
That is laughable. When it becomes easier to buy a handgun than it is to buy hops, there is a serious problem.
If the guy in front of you bought the last two ounces, you could/should have made a deal with the guy to buy them off him, or put in an order somewhere else. The onus isn't on the store to have psychic powers to guess that the next person in line will want the same thing.
The store is there to sell product. The consumer is there to buy product.
BlackBetty
Member
tsk tsk..
We have maximums on a few varities of hops in our homebrew shop, however if someone needs them for a recipe, we'll gladly sell them. The purpose of quotas is to prevent one customer from buying all the hops in a weeks time to shove in their freezer, and then brag on HBT that they have 2lbs of hops oxidizing away. Remember, if a shop doesn't have hops, they can't effectively be in business, can they? It seems dumb to not sell a product a customer needs, but think about it.
The alternative to maximums is price gouging (Supply/Demand). If the shop told you the Centennial hops were $10/oz. You might re-think you're recipe or how badly you needed them. After reading the post you've made, he may well increase prices. We try to keep ours reasonably priced, and maximums help that without us having to worry about not having hops for the rest of the year.
I am certain the shop wasn't maliciously trying to prevent you from getting hops. Likely an employee with a limited understanding of what needed to be done in that situation. However, posts on public forums, are somewhat malicious in nature... You may not go to the store again not from your own will, but because for other reasons.
One of the most difficult things to deal with running a business is the online rants/raves that never were brought up to the owner BEFORE the rant/rave. Doing business with a small business is much different than shopping in a supercenter, talk to the owner, let him know how you feel. You're likely shooting yourself in the foot for not shopping local.
A word on hops, pricing, and shortages. In 2010 most LHBS did not have contracts for hops, most small breweries also did not have contracts for hops in place. This left all LHBS and small breweries that didn't have contracts scrambling to find hops from whoever they could (many bought from the same places retail consumers did) because THEIR OWN wholesalers would NOT SELL them hops. So, to the business owner that couldn't buy hops from their wholesaler, I can see how it isn't a far stretch for them to ration out a few pounds of hops they likely overpaid and scrounged around for - Usually these hops that they ration, they use to get customers in the door, rather than make much profit on as they likely paid retail or above pricing. If a shop announces they have Simcoe hops in, they automatically get customers in to buy stuff. If they sell them all to one guy, those customers don't come in and ultimately business suffers. So it's either high hop pricing, or maximums.
For 2011/2012 many breweries are getting contracts to secure hop pricing. Most homebrew shops do not have the funds to do so. With no increase in growing most of the hard-to-find hops, expect higher prices or more "maximums" around.
Owning a business and doing the "right" thing isn't easy when you have employees representing you that may or may not understand the goal of the business, contact the owner before you blast him online. He likely is unaware, and he might need to know information about this employee to make his store better in the future.
We have maximums on a few varities of hops in our homebrew shop, however if someone needs them for a recipe, we'll gladly sell them. The purpose of quotas is to prevent one customer from buying all the hops in a weeks time to shove in their freezer, and then brag on HBT that they have 2lbs of hops oxidizing away. Remember, if a shop doesn't have hops, they can't effectively be in business, can they? It seems dumb to not sell a product a customer needs, but think about it.
The alternative to maximums is price gouging (Supply/Demand). If the shop told you the Centennial hops were $10/oz. You might re-think you're recipe or how badly you needed them. After reading the post you've made, he may well increase prices. We try to keep ours reasonably priced, and maximums help that without us having to worry about not having hops for the rest of the year.
I am certain the shop wasn't maliciously trying to prevent you from getting hops. Likely an employee with a limited understanding of what needed to be done in that situation. However, posts on public forums, are somewhat malicious in nature... You may not go to the store again not from your own will, but because for other reasons.
One of the most difficult things to deal with running a business is the online rants/raves that never were brought up to the owner BEFORE the rant/rave. Doing business with a small business is much different than shopping in a supercenter, talk to the owner, let him know how you feel. You're likely shooting yourself in the foot for not shopping local.
A word on hops, pricing, and shortages. In 2010 most LHBS did not have contracts for hops, most small breweries also did not have contracts for hops in place. This left all LHBS and small breweries that didn't have contracts scrambling to find hops from whoever they could (many bought from the same places retail consumers did) because THEIR OWN wholesalers would NOT SELL them hops. So, to the business owner that couldn't buy hops from their wholesaler, I can see how it isn't a far stretch for them to ration out a few pounds of hops they likely overpaid and scrounged around for - Usually these hops that they ration, they use to get customers in the door, rather than make much profit on as they likely paid retail or above pricing. If a shop announces they have Simcoe hops in, they automatically get customers in to buy stuff. If they sell them all to one guy, those customers don't come in and ultimately business suffers. So it's either high hop pricing, or maximums.
For 2011/2012 many breweries are getting contracts to secure hop pricing. Most homebrew shops do not have the funds to do so. With no increase in growing most of the hard-to-find hops, expect higher prices or more "maximums" around.
Owning a business and doing the "right" thing isn't easy when you have employees representing you that may or may not understand the goal of the business, contact the owner before you blast him online. He likely is unaware, and he might need to know information about this employee to make his store better in the future.
Airplanedoc
Well-Known Member
Following the economic laws of supply and demand is NOT the same as price gouging
In one you pay fair market value for a product based on the real supply of the product. In the other you are paying higher price due to a artificially constrained system.
So what you are saying is one store setting maximums can lead to another store price gouging
ArcaneXor
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It is artificially constrained because you don't pay based on the stock size, but on the amount of flow, and either producers or wholesalers artificially throttled that flow until now - where do you think all that 2010 Simcoe that is suddenly flooding the spot market is coming from? The commodity market is full of such market failures.
Many people on here don't realize that the supply side in the homebrewing industry is anything but straightforward.
Childish attitude? Who the hell are you? That was the reason I said I would call the owner and tell him about my experience first! To give him the opportunity to make it right. And if I told my other brewing friends about it before I did that is my perogative.
You have your opinion and I have mine. A store of any kind that told me they can't sell me two more items that are in stock so I could finish my project because someone else may need them after me would not get my business. Makes no difference if its a LHBS or Home Depot.
ArcaneXor
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You never implied even giving the owner a chance to make it right. You said you'd call him to let him know why you'd never spend another dollar in his store again. Childish and unreasonable, especially since this is not an "essential ingredient for your project" - Centennial can easily be substituted with something else as a bittering hop.
Calling him IS giving him the chance to make it right. The shop worker was the one who was childish and unreasonable in this case.
Clann
Well-Known Member
I dont think it matters. If I want a product and a store has said item on the shelf and won't sell it to me because of potential future customers then to hell with them, I'll take my money elsewhere. The owner shouldnt have to make it right it should have been right from the getgo
BlackBetty
Member
Agreed, following economic laws in a textbook, S/D is not the same as gouging.
However, we all know what can happen in real world economics, especially in markets where the consumer (and retailers) have little knowledge on the actual supply and demand. My point was that if hops sell out too quickly, then pricing is too low.
I used the word gouging sarcastically.
Three months ago as a retailer such hops as Simcoe, Amarillo, Ahtanum, Citra, et al were unavailable to us (or priced so high, resale for profit was unlikely) from the same wholesalers that now are trying to dump those same hops on the market because of the new harvest coming up. The actual quantity available of the hops is kept pretty quiet, hence an artificially inflated price follows.
i must say that I am surprised to see the diversity here. I would like to speak to some of your comments though. I am not interested in speaking to the owner. I mentioned my issue to another staff member and he shrugged his shoulders. I paused, he had nothing to say, so I left. I am not interested in calling the owner at this point. It was a bad business decision. I work in pharmaceutical sales and in my industry (as is the case in most industries), the customer is always right. Obviously, we can't take that literally because that would not be true, but it is something to consider when dealing with any items/goods/etc that will incur some kind of transaction. The customer is always right because the customer has the option to walk away from any sale, whether it be for one particular item, or for one particular store, chain, restaraunt, etc. There are only 1 of me That's why it makes good business sense satisfy the customer in every way possible. I politely asked, not once, but twice for the two additional ounces because the AA came up short with their batch of Centennials. I have 2 other homebrew stores equidistant to my house. This one was convenient for me in regards to where I work. To whoever's misfortune, I brew at my house and not where I work. There is no loss for me to use the other 2 LHBS (in fact I went to one today and grabbed the other 2 ounces i needed) except for convenience at going during lunch, versus after work.
Yes, it is the store that moved a mile down the street.
Centennials can be substituted (by me, or by the next fellow waiting in line for them), however this recipe is a Bell's Two Hearted Ale Clone (and they only use Centennial). So, he supplied me with 83.33% of my order and let me beg two times for the additional 2 ounces to my own dismay.
I am not saying these people are horrible and shouldn't be allowed to own and operate a homebrew store, I'm just saying think before you act. They acknowlege me as a frequent customer, so treat me like one, or treat those as you wish to be treated.
Thanks for listening to my rant. You can agree or disagree.
The End...
That's why it makes good business sense satisfy the customer in every way possible. I politely asked, not once, but twice for the two additional ounces because the AA came up short with their batch of Centennials. I have 2 other homebrew stores equidistant to my house. This one was convenient for me in regards to where I work. To whoever's misfortune, I brew at my house and not where I work. There is no loss for me to use the other 2 LHBS (in fact I went to one today and grabbed the other 2 ounces i needed) except for convenience at going during lunch, versus after work.Yes, it is the store that moved a mile down the street.
Centennials can be substituted (by me, or by the next fellow waiting in line for them), however this recipe is a Bell's Two Hearted Ale Clone (and they only use Centennial). So, he supplied me with 83.33% of my order and let me beg two times for the additional 2 ounces to my own dismay.
I am not saying these people are horrible and shouldn't be allowed to own and operate a homebrew store, I'm just saying think before you act. They acknowlege me as a frequent customer, so treat me like one, or treat those as you wish to be treated.
Thanks for listening to my rant. You can agree or disagree.
The End...
ao125 said:
Were you brewing during the hop shortages? This was common practice. Your derision is unwarranted.
funkapottomous
Well-Known Member
what it really comes down to is that you were the customer, you had cash in hand (or a debit/credit card, not like it matters) ready to purchase something from them that was in stock and they refused to sell it to you.
If I were the owner of the store I'd be pretty pissed about that decision. The worker's refusal to sell you another 2 ounces of hops that cost a few dollars has cost his business thousands of dollars in the future.
If you were to go to the shop and they were out of the hops, it's not big deal. "there's a shortage, we can't get any in."
"Oh, that sucks."
"Yep."
But that's not the case. I would've taken my business elsewhere as well, if the shopkeeper doesn't want to make it right he obviously doesn't need or want your business that damn bad.
Yes, there is/was a hops shortage, big whoop. It would suck to not be able to buy the hops you wanted once they ran out, but that's how the world works.
If I were the owner of the store I'd be pretty pissed about that decision. The worker's refusal to sell you another 2 ounces of hops that cost a few dollars has cost his business thousands of dollars in the future.
If you were to go to the shop and they were out of the hops, it's not big deal. "there's a shortage, we can't get any in."
"Oh, that sucks."
"Yep."
But that's not the case. I would've taken my business elsewhere as well, if the shopkeeper doesn't want to make it right he obviously doesn't need or want your business that damn bad.
Yes, there is/was a hops shortage, big whoop. It would suck to not be able to buy the hops you wanted once they ran out, but that's how the world works.
And as I read it the person serving you only mentioned that the AA% was lower just before you paid, if he had said that they just got 5 lbs of Centennial in, it is XX%, how much do you need? you would have asked for the correct amount from the start.
You should have walked out with the stuff you bought, put it in the car, walked back in a asked for 2 oz of Centennial hops and act like you weren't just in the place
then repeat untill you have bought all 5 lbs! Would be hilarious if another customer walked in and overheard the employee telling you thta you couldn't buy (only) 2 oz of hops.
shafferpilot
Well-Known Member
While there is nothing wrong (as in illegal) about refusing a sale to someone so long as it isn't for reasons of color, sex, heritage, religion, etc. It sure is stupid. I know more Centenniel is available to the store, because every online store has it on sale right now! I've done this type of move before in many businesses. Work for a restaurant that runs out of chicken breasts and the supplier can't get it to us today? Make a run to Kroger or Meijer or wherever and fix the problem. So we lose a little profit margin today, so what? Losing customers is WAY worse in every single case. My solution would be to sell the customer in front of me however much he wants and fix the damn inventory problem before the next guy shows up! If that means I have to order from an online store and lose a little money today, then I give MY supplier a kick in the butt... or myself for not ordering enough. Christ, ordering enough supplies to meet demand just isn't that difficult. Occasional hiccups get dealt with... but if it's a regular problem... FIX IT
Beezy
Well-Known Member
Thats the bottom line. No customers = out of business. My store is ok. They would rather be selling wine kits than make an AGer happy tho. Buying grain and hops there is draining my bank account. Can't afford the convenience.
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
I would bet money that you haven't been brewing very long, and didn't have to deal with the worldwide hop shortage of a couple years ago.
Hugh_Jass
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This thread reeks of petulance.
remillard, Bernie, the_bird and others have it right. Take a clean bittering hop (Magnum) and use it to adjust your IBU.s. Is it really worth getting bent out of shape or completely swearing off your LHBS over 2 oz of hops that would easily be substituted? Seems unreasonable to me.
remillard, Bernie, the_bird and others have it right. Take a clean bittering hop (Magnum) and use it to adjust your IBU.s. Is it really worth getting bent out of shape or completely swearing off your LHBS over 2 oz of hops that would easily be substituted? Seems unreasonable to me.
To the OP..... I would be annoyed too. They gave you 10oz to fill your recipe then refused to give you more. If there is a limit they should say something before hand or post a sign. That being said you were originally ok with subs when you thought they were out so going from "go with the flow" to "never again" ...seems odd. Bad customer service happens at almost every store I goto, but I don't let it bother me enough to ruin my day. On a side note, buying 10 or 12 oz of hops at your lhbs is money down the drain imo, at $2 per oz or more, that's an insaine amount for hops, 20 or 24 bucks and I have an entire batch brewed. I would look into buying hops by the pound to save some money and grief in the future.
I liked Homercidal's comment....was the rationed amount clearly marked? I see this regularly with special brews like Pliny and such...one per customer. If it's clearly marked, you know what to expect and therefore should elicit no rancor. I would be quite irritated if I started picking up things and have an employee tell me "sorry, you can only get 3 of those". It smells like making up the rules as you go along, which I simply cannot abide. You're at an established business, not a garage sale.
As for the comment on stockpiling/reselling hops...purchasing bulk hops from a LHBS is probably not the best way to profit from reselling or the most cost-effective way to stock your freezer. They are generally VERY expensive compared to some online retailers. I'm sure the OP's 10 oz cost a pretty penny.
As for the comment on stockpiling/reselling hops...purchasing bulk hops from a LHBS is probably not the best way to profit from reselling or the most cost-effective way to stock your freezer. They are generally VERY expensive compared to some online retailers. I'm sure the OP's 10 oz cost a pretty penny.
Steelers77
Vendor
As a small business owner I think you have to walk the tightrope in this situation. You have to weigh the pros and cons of the decision and the eventual outcome.
I think the request for 2 additional ounces was not unreasonable and I think they should have accommodated you. Then they should have informed you that in the future there will be some limits on the amount of hops you can purchase. Or they could have easily suggested a suitable replacement for the bittering addition and tried to “convince” you that this is indeed a hop that is in short supply and we would like to spread them out to other brewers.
Also, I think you may have received a different response had it been the owner and not an employee. As it was previously stated, an owner would rather give you 2oz of hops then lose your business.
Now had you asked for 3lb's of hops then the response (in my opinion) would have been merited due to a lack of inventory and the possibility of upsetting a ton of other customers.
If this is going to be their policy it would be in their best interest to have it post in a visible location so more customers are not upset like you are.
I think the request for 2 additional ounces was not unreasonable and I think they should have accommodated you. Then they should have informed you that in the future there will be some limits on the amount of hops you can purchase. Or they could have easily suggested a suitable replacement for the bittering addition and tried to “convince” you that this is indeed a hop that is in short supply and we would like to spread them out to other brewers.
Also, I think you may have received a different response had it been the owner and not an employee. As it was previously stated, an owner would rather give you 2oz of hops then lose your business.
Now had you asked for 3lb's of hops then the response (in my opinion) would have been merited due to a lack of inventory and the possibility of upsetting a ton of other customers.
If this is going to be their policy it would be in their best interest to have it post in a visible location so more customers are not upset like you are.
Wrecked
Well-Known Member
Bad customer service = Loss of business - Plain and simple
Supply and demand play little role in the attitude of the employee.
There are so many ways the employee could have salvaged this customer relationship.
1. Sold him what he needed.
or
2. Offered a viable sub for last 2oz.
or
3. Make an effort to show concern for the customers needs, like calling the owner and getting an ok to sell a full 12oz (or whatever was needed)
Supply and demand play little role in the attitude of the employee.
There are so many ways the employee could have salvaged this customer relationship.
1. Sold him what he needed.
or
2. Offered a viable sub for last 2oz.
or
3. Make an effort to show concern for the customers needs, like calling the owner and getting an ok to sell a full 12oz (or whatever was needed)
