British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[brewbama]

Tagging in to be able to find this info later

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Great thread, this thread plus Bob's thread on Bitter, with some experimentation helped me get that malt flavor.. Key elements in my view are: pitch adequate quantity ( 350 Billon cells per 11 gallons @ 1.044,) remove from yeast quickly, go light to zero flavor hops (any hops in boil 25 to 10 minutes), Mash at 152 with 1.25 Qts/pound (or less).

I had so much much malt in my 1.044 OG brew that I cut it with sugar in subsequent brews and upped the IBU's to maintain the OG, but balance it. I often brew it at 1.039 without the sugar and it's British malty.

Here is what I do with 1968, I have a conical which makes it easy to get rid of the yeast/trub.

MO 86%
40L Crystal 7.5%
Sugar 6 %
IBU 38
EKG Hops for aroma at whirlpool
OG 1.044
FG 1.008

Pitch (don't skimp) at 62F and let it free rise to 66F, hold at 66F until it reaches 1.014 to 1.018 (3 to 4 days). Drop yeast/trub from the bottom of the fermenter. D rest and drive attenuation by raising temp to 69 F for 3 to 4 days. Drop yeast. Crash cool to 37 F under a continous blanket of CO2 for 2 to 4 days. Drop yeast, then Keg and force carbonate at 38 F for 7 days to desired CO2 levels. Serve at 51F.

For my tastes this is a near perfect brew and I thank all those who contributed to these two threads for helping me get there. What is the Key in my opinion???? ...I'm off the yeast and in the keg by day 8.

 

[CadiBrewer]

Great thread, this thread plus Bob's thread on Bitter, with some experimentation helped me get that malt flavor.. Key elements in my view are: pitch adequate quantity ( 350 Billon cells per 11 gallons @ 1.044,) remove from yeast quickly, go light to zero flavor hops (any hops with boils greater then 10 minutes), Mash at 152 with 1.25 Qts/pound (or less).

I had so much much malt in my 1.044 OG brew that I cut it with sugar in subsequent brews and upped the IBU's to maintain the OG, but balance it. I often brew it at 1.039 without the sugar and it's British malty.

Here is what I do with 1968, I have a conical which makes it easy to get rid of the yeast/trub.

MO 86%
40L Crystal 7.5%
Sugar 6 %
IBU 38
EKG Hops for aroma at whirlpool
OG 1.044
FG 1.008

Pitch (don't skimp) at 62F and let it free rise to 66F, hold at 66F until it reaches 1.014 to 1.018 (3 to 4 days). Drop yeast/trub from the bottom of the fermenter. D rest and drive attenuation by raising temp to 69 F for 3 to 4 days. Drop yeast. Crash cool to 37 F under a continous blanket of CO2 for 2 to 4 days. Drop yeast, then Keg and force carbonate at 38 F for 7 days to desired CO2 levels. Serve at 51F.

For my tastes this is a near perfect brew and I thank all those who contributed to these to threads for helping me get there. What is the Key in my opinion???? ...I'm off the yeast and in the keg by day 8.

Great post!

How do you cold crash under a blanket of Co2?

For repeatability, I prefer to do a slow ramp rather than a free rise because a free rise is dependent upon the ambient temp, the activity of the yeast, etc. How long would you guess it takes to rise from 62 to 66?

Lastly, what water profile are you using?

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Cold crash - CO2 regulator (not shown) set a smidge above zero. From regulator to the gas post TC on the right hand side. Guage (on top) as the regulator guage is a bit of a crap shoot at these low pressures. Then on the very left hand side of the cross, there is a spring loaded pressure relief (opens at about 2.5 psi) to protect the fermenter should I have a run away pressure event. The TC ball valve allows me to isolate the fermenter to prevent 02 ingress when I change from blow off TC barb and hose to the gas post. I use the same set up to transfer to the keg. I just up the pressure to about 2 psi

On free rise time, the ambient temp is 70 to 72 F, I'd estimate it takes 10 to 15 hours. I usually pitch at 4 pm and by the next morning my cooling system is cycling to keep it at 66F. Will have to add my water profile when I get home (at work, don't tell the boss

Great post!

How do you cold crash under a blanket of Co2?

For repeatability, I prefer to do a slow ramp rather than a free rise because a free rise is dependent upon the ambient temp, the activity of the yeast, etc. How long would you guess it takes to rise from 62 to 66?

Lastly, what water profile are you using?

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

And the water profile in ppm ... I basically dilute potassium metabisulfite treated tap water with DI water and add gypsum and calcium chloride. I have flexed the Sulfate/CL ratio and it makes a difference but it's a second order effect. If the malt is profile is not there, even reversing the ratio doesn't produce it

Ca: 65
Mg: 5.78
Na: 23
Cl: 50
So4: 80
HC03: 121

 

[CadiBrewer]

Thanks for the detailed info. I have a house bitter that I love but I am looking for a new version to try. I'm brewing an Irish stout this weekend, then this one.

 

[gbx]

...and I don't know if this has been mentioned recently, but Simpson's 70-80L crystal (even fermented with US-05) will get you closer to "that british taste" than anything you can do with domestic malts, perfect ferment or not. Simpsons wasn't available to homebrewers here when this thread was started and I brewed a lot of bitters and milds chasing that taste.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

...and I don't know if this has been mentioned recently, but Simpson's 70-80L crystal (even fermented with US-05) will get you closer to "that british taste" than anything you can do with domestic malts, perfect ferment or not. Simpsons wasn't available to homebrewers here when this thread was started and I brewed a lot of bitters and milds chasing that taste.

Will give this a try. I'm subbing Simpson's golden promise into the above recipe this weekend.

Thanks for the detailed info. I have a house bitter that I love but I am looking for a new version to try. I'm brewing an Irish stout this weekend, then this one.

would love to give yours a try if you post recipe?

 

[gbx]

This was my best one. It scored a 39 in competition despite being smaller than style back when ESB's won all the medals in English Pale Ales:

#79 First Gold Amber Bitter
Brewed: 14-04-2013
OG: 1.032
FG: 1.008
ABV: 3.2%
Batch Size: 19L

6lb TF MO
8oz Bairds C75
1oz Bairds Chocolate

1oz First Gold 8.4% AA @ FW
1oz First Gold 8.4% AA @ 0

Water: 1tsp CaCl, 1.5tsp CaSO4, 1tsp yeast nutrient (Vancouver's tap water is RO)

Ferment: wy1469 "open ferment" in bucket with lid set on loosely, pitched at 14C allowed to free rise in 18C ambient, packaged on day 5.

I've done this basic recipe (UK pale to somewhere between 1.030 and 1.040, 8oz UK crystal, 1oz UK chocolate, UK hops @ FW and 0min, UK yeast) more than 20 times but never the exact same. I usually brew it as a drinkable starter to harvest yeast from. I really liked the first gold and west yorkshire in this one. I haven't done again because I don't like the west yorkshire the second time around. Maybe there is a right way to harvest it but I couldn't find it.

 

[bierhaus15]

If you guys have not already done so, check out the private collection yeasts from Wyeast. Three really nice English strains, including one of my personal favorites, Thames Valley II.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Where do you buy from ... my LHBS only carries the standards and my online source morebeer doesn't carry them

If you guys have not already done so, check out the private collection yeasts from Wyeast. Three really nice English strains, including one of my personal favorites, Thames Valley II.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I haven't done again because I don't like the west yorkshire the second time around. Maybe there is a right way to harvest it but I couldn't find it.

West Yorkshire yeast is excellent for top cropping - skim the dark-coloured gunk off the top of the yeast when the krausen starts (usually at about 24hrs after pitching) and throw it away. Wait another 24hours then collect a jar of nice yeast off the top of the krausen. I have found that yeast collected this way doesn't like to be stored for too long though - ideally collect it and use it straight away.

Alternatively (this is how I do it now), make a starter with the smack pack, pitch 3/4 of the starter into the beer and use the other 1/4 for another starter.....etc....etc. It's cleaner (but less convenient) than using yeast cake.

 

[gbx]

West Yorkshire yeast is excellent for top cropping - skim the dark-coloured gunk off the top of the yeast when the krausen starts (usually at about 24hrs after pitching) and throw it away. Wait another 24hours then collect a jar of nice yeast off the top of the krausen. I have found that yeast collected this way doesn't like to be stored for too long though - ideally collect it and use it straight away.

Alternatively (this is how I do it now), make a starter with the smack pack, pitch 3/4 of the starter into the beer and use the other 1/4 for another starter.....etc....etc. It's cleaner (but less convenient) than using yeast cake.

Its an alright top cropper IF you have a massive pitch of yeast. Massive pitch. Even then the attenuation is higher the second time around. If you don't have enough yeast in the first pitch it does the weird no-krausen bottom ferment. If you harvest from the bottom, the next beer will be rocket fuel. I generally don't do starters (the ordinary bitter is my starter) and 1 smack pack isn't enough 1469 for a good krausen.

 

[Gill]

This thread had 65 pages, what happened?? We can't lose this treasure. Please tell me you can restore the backup or something lol

 

[FermentedCulture]

I think the default posts per page of a thread is now 40 instead of like 10(?). After the update I looked for how to change posts per page but couldn't find it. I like 40 per page so it suits me.

 

[Gill]

I think the default posts per page of a thread is now 40 instead of like 10(?). After the update I looked for how to change posts per page but couldn't find it. I like 40 per page so it suits me.

Oh what a relief, thanks!

 

[nameless_one]

Hi! I hope this thread is still alive.

I brewed a Mild using WhiteLabs WLP005 British Ale yeast. OG 1.038, 20 IBU. 86% base malt, the rest was specialty malts (crystal, chocolate). Mashed at 67C for 60 minutes, then raised to mash out at 76C and fly sparged.

I pitched a 1.5l starter of WLP005 (decanted) and aerated the beer with airpump for about 20 minutes. I am using a plastic bucket with lid and airlock to ferment. The firt 3 days i kept the fermentation temperature around 18C, then i raised it slightly to 20C. On day 4 the gravity of the beer stabilised. On day 7 (the gravity was stable for 3 days according to iSpindel) I decided to take gravity reading with a hydrometer and it was at 1.013 (65% AA). The beer tasted fine but I tasted acetaldehyde so I decided to agitate the beer to encourage the yeast to clean up the acetaldehyde (i swirled it gently with that big plastic brewing spoon). After that i purged the headspace of the beer with CO2 and reatached the airlock. Something strange happened after that. According to iSpindel the the gravity started to drop again. I took another gravity sample at day 10 (1.012) and day 16 (1.009). It dropped 4 gravity points in 10 days, 1.009 is 75% AA so still normal attenuation for the given yeast. At day 10 I also noticed that a new small krausen is forming. Now is day 18 and the gravity is still dropping. Have you seen something like that with this yeast (or other english yeast strain)? Is it normal? Or may this be a possible infection with other (wild yeast or diastaticus) yeast?

Last time I used this yeast I was brewing a Special Bitter (OG 1.058, FG 1.017, 70% AA) but it tasted a little bit underattenuated and I think it fermented out a little more after bottling.

 

[bierhaus15]

WLP005 is a variant of Ringwood yeast, an oxygen hungry and top cropping Yorkshire strain that is typically roused during fermentation to achieve full attenuation. By agitating the brew, you probably injected some 02 into the beer and mixed the yeast back into the beer, kickstarting fermentation. Some people essentially do the same throughout fermentation to ensure a dry and fully attenuated beer. So nothing really wrong or surprising here; your previous batch probably could have used the same treatment as well.

It also is a big diacetyl producer, so be sure to give the beer a few days at warm temp to clean up the buttery flavor.

 

[nameless_one]

Thanks for your reply, this is what I also think is the most probable explanation... the only thing that concerns me is that the gravity is still dropping (and today is the 19th day from the beginning of the fermentation). I hope it will stop soon, then I leave it for another 1 - 2 days to clean up at 22C and transfer the beer to cornys and forcacarb.

Should I rouse it now to help it attenuate completely?

 

[nameless_one]

Hi!

Today is day 22 of fermentation. I roused the yeast 3 days ago and raised the temp to 22C. According to iSpindel the beer continued to attenuate. I took a hydrometer sample today, it is now at 1.004 (90% attenuation). The taste is realy green, lot of acetaldehyde. I need to transfer the beer today do corny kegs, any advice how could I salvage this beer? Should I carbonate with addition of dextrose to promote the yeast (to clean up the acetaldehyde)?

 

[rmyurick]

Hi!

Today is day 22 of fermentation. I roused the yeast 3 days ago and raised the temp to 22C. According to iSpindel the beer continued to attenuate. I took a hydrometer sample today, it is now at 1.004 (90% attenuation). The taste is realy green, lot of acetaldehyde. I need to transfer the beer today do corny kegs, any advice how could I salvage this beer? Should I carbonate with addition of dextrose to promote the yeast (to clean up the acetaldehyde)?

Are you sure it is acetaldehyde and not fruity esters?

 

[nameless_one]

Yeah, pretty sure. I transferred the beer to kegs 9 days ago and added some corn sugar. I tasted the beer yesterday, some acetaldehyde is still present but it is much better than before. Ideally I would let the kegs sit at room temperature for at least another week, but I need to bottle the beer in 3 days, so I am forced to move the kegs to the fridge tonight.

 

[rmyurick]

Yeah, pretty sure. I transferred the beer to kegs 9 days ago and added some corn sugar. I tasted the beer yesterday, some acetaldehyde is still present but it is much better than before. Ideally I would let the kegs sit at room temperature for at least another week, but I need to bottle the beer in 3 days, so I am forced to move the kegs to the fridge tonight.

When I worked for a "bigly" Brewer as an engineer, they had an acetaldehyde issue, and knew right away that it was insufficient oxygenation. The stones that sparge in the O2 were inserted the wrong way. A lot of English ale yeasts, however, can give a fruity taste to beer, especially young beer.

 

[nameless_one]

Thanks for the reply, next time I use this British yeast I will pay more attention to proper pitch rate and aeration. And maybe try the "semi open" fermentation - with the lid just loosely put on the fermentation bucket.

 

[rmyurick]

Thanks for the reply, next time I use this British yeast I will pay more attention to proper pitch rate and aeration. And maybe try the "semi open" fermentation - with the lid just loosely put on the fermentation bucket.

Given the low fg, I wonder if you maybe got some other microbe in there, maybe with the plastic spoon or maybe from a scratch on your plastic fermenter. I would finish the batch & see what it tastes like after a couple weeks.

 

[nameless_one]

Given the low fg, I wonder if you maybe got some other microbe in there, maybe with the plastic spoon or maybe from a scratch on your plastic fermenter. I would finish the batch & see what it tastes like after a couple weeks.

well, there is a chance of a cross contamination with yeast from the previous batch. In the previous batch I used WLP644 Saccharomyces Bruxellensis Trois, White Labs says it is a "diastaticus" strain. I am realy rigorous about sanitation ( I user paracetic acid ) but a cross contamination with this yeast would be a logical explanation of this long fermentation and very low FG. I could not detect any off-flavors in the taste except the acetaldehyde.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm just getting back into brewing again after a couple year hiatus and of course I'm back to the british beers. Currently planning to run some experiments on dual (or more)-strain ferments as that is a technique that seems surprisingly underused for british beer given their history. Also seems like a good way to tailor the yeast characteristics more to our liking rather than be tied to the limitations of one strain. For example - I really love the flavor of the Ringwood strain, but I always have a devil of a time getting the bastard to finish. So I'm going to pitch it along with CYA007 (same strain as Wy1335) to help it to dry out. Also really interested in throwing in a tiny bit of a Belgian or german yeast that would produce some isoamyl acetate and some bubblegum esters, as I've noticed them in some English beer at low levels and think it can add to the complexity. Don't really want any phenols, though, so I'm having trouble picking something. That may be a later experiment once I have some experience co-pitching CYA004 (Ringwood) and CYA007 (Wy1335[the dry half of Adnam's dual strain, apparently]). Anyway, lots of interesting stuff coming on that front.

Have also decided that maybe it is oxygen that is killing the malt and ester characteristics of our English beer, at least in part. I still believe letting the fermentation go for too long lets the yeast clean up too much and that a cold crash earlier than later really helps to lock some of those characteristics in. But I'm also remembering all the times that a beer tasted great from the fermenter but lost much of the character after bottling or kegging. Really does seem like the oxygen picked up in transfer could be a major player there. So I've got a fermentasaurus on the way and plan to do this next batch in there, with plans to serve straight from it. Ideally, I'd drink from the fermentasaurus for as long as the batch lasts, but it will keep me from putting anything else in the fermentation fridge so I'll have to cut it short eventually. Looking forward to seeing what an English beer with absolutely no cold-side oxidation will taste like over the first couple weeks, though. Stay tuned.

 

[nameless_one]

So to sumarise things up, today I tasted the bottle after 7 days from bottling. The acetaldehyde cleared up significantly, beside that fruity esters dominate the taste. The body is relatively thin. I also measured the gravity, it stopped at 1.0025 which is 93% attenuation. It tastes much better than 7 days ago, but not that good I was hoping for this beer. The most probable explanation for this thin body and realy high attenuation is a cross contamination with WLP644 yeast from previous batch.

 

[bierhaus15]

I'm just getting back into brewing again after a couple year hiatus and of course I'm back to the british beers. Currently planning to run some experiments on dual (or more)-strain ferments as that is a technique that seems surprisingly underused for british beer given their history. Also seems like a good way to tailor the yeast characteristics more to our liking rather than be tied to the limitations of one strain. For example - I really love the flavor of the Ringwood strain, but I always have a devil of a time getting the bastard to finish. So I'm going to pitch it along with CYA007 (same strain as Wy1335) to help it to dry out. Also really interested in throwing in a tiny bit of a Belgian or german yeast that would produce some isoamyl acetate and some bubblegum esters, as I've noticed them in some English beer at low levels and think it can add to the complexity. Don't really want any phenols, though, so I'm having trouble picking something. That may be a later experiment once I have some experience co-pitching CYA004 (Ringwood) and CYA007 (Wy1335[the dry half of Adnam's dual strain, apparently]). Anyway, lots of interesting stuff coming on that front.

Nice to see you back on the boards. Per characterful yeast, I've been brewing with a few UK commercial strains I got from NCYC and another UK yeast bank. The difference between the UK banked strains and what we get from WY and WL is striking, even for the supposed equivalent strains. Flavors are generally more complex and most show true top cropping ability. Ever see the Fullers strain produce a krausen like 1469? I suspect some of this is due to the difference in propagation medium and storage (wort v. molasses) and the fact that many of the US equivalent strains were from bottled yeast and not brewery deposited. Worth checking out if you want to take a "deep dive" into British yeast.

 

[KingBrianI]

Nice to see you back on the boards. Per characterful yeast, I've been brewing with a few UK commercial strains I got from NCYC and another UK yeast bank. The difference between the UK banked strains and what we get from WY and WL is striking, even for the supposed equivalent strains. Flavors are generally more complex and most show true top cropping ability. Ever see the Fullers strain produce a krausen like 1469? I suspect some of this is due to the difference in propagation medium and storage (wort v. molasses) and the fact that many of the US equivalent strains were from bottled yeast and not brewery deposited. Worth checking out if you want to take a "deep dive" into British yeast.

That is great information! I hadn't considered that there might be big differences between the strains maintained by the US yeast companies and the UK yeast banks, but it makes sense! Are there any strains you recommend? I'm really chasing that sweet, fruity, ethereal ester profile I get in some English beer. Very slight banana and bubblegum just at threshold in addition to the previously-mentioned esters. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Most commercial US-sourced strains have been a bit flat in comparison which is why I started thinking about combining strains. Maybe some of the NCYC or UK yeast bank strains can get me there without the hassle of maintaining a multi-strain culture. I'm assuming the other UK yeast bank to which you are referring is Brewlab? I was in contact with them a while back about getting some slants, but somehow I never followed through. In quickly looking at the NCYC website, it looks like the cheapest I could think about obtaining a strain is £85, not including whatever international shipping arrangements I'd need. I'm assuming you have a local source that distributes NCYC-obtained cultures?