Bringing 3.2% beer back!

[Gary25]

Great suggestion.

I’m going to try both wheat and carapils- but carapils first. Given the already low ABV, I can probably just add carapils and not affect the gravity too much. I’m thinking I’ll go big with it; perhaps 10% of the malt bill and see if it makes an appreciable difference. If the OG gets too high, I’ll remove some base malt.

I have a new version fermenting. Everything the same but added 2 lbs carapils.
Malt bill:
Two row: 61.5%
Flaked rye: 15.4%
Munich: 10.3%
Carapils: 10.3%
C40: 2.6%

45 minute mash @160F
US05 yeast

OG rose to 1.042 (estimated ABV 3.8%) so a bit higher than the previous version.

I’ve read criticisms of carapils not really delivering on the foam/body attributes. It will be interesting to see if it helps in this case where I noted weakness in body and lacing in the first version.

 

[bwible]

Breiss on their site says:

Usage Levels / Beer Styles

1-5%	To add body and foam stability without influencing color or aroma

10% is pretty over the top. I’ve never used that much. I saw one recipe on Founders site for their Curmedgeon Old Ale - since they stopped brewing it they put a recipe out there for homebrewers - that has a very large percentage of carapils and I wondered about that. Definitely let us know. Thanks

 

[Gary25]

Breiss on their site says:

Usage Levels / Beer Styles

1-5%	To add body and foam stability without influencing color or aroma

10% is pretty over the top. I’ve never used that much. I saw one recipe on Founders site for their Curmedgeon Old Ale - since they stopped brewing it they put a recipe out there for homebrewers - that has a very large percentage of carapils and I wondered about that. Definitely let us know. Thanks

Good point—this may well be too much. I purposely went high to try to reach an upper limit….but didn’t notice I was double the recommended amount. Good thing beer is forgiving!

Once it’s in the keg, I’ll give it a try and compare it to the first version. Hopefully there is a noticeable (and positive) difference!

 

[mashdar]

IMO a low ABV can stand higher % crystal etc. And higher ABV needs less. A flat % never made much sense to me.

But OG 1.042 isn't super low, either I'd be tempted to calculate the weight of 5% in a 1.052 beer and use that as a max. (I treat 1.052 ~ 5% ~ standard beer.)

 

[worlddivides]

I usually do around 4% Carapils. I've also often combined it with around 4% flaked wheat, so I'm not sure how much of the foam stability is from the Carapils and how much from the flaked wheat, but the beers I've used that combo in have always had great foam stability.

The most recent beer I made also had an OG of 1.042, but it had an FG of 1.008, meaning 4.46% ABV, which I wouldn't consider low ABV at all but more "average" ABV since most of the best selling beers are in between 4% and 6% with most between 4.5% and 5.5%. With all that flaked rye, though, I imagine the FG will be quite a bit higher and you may indeed get an ABV of around 3.7% or 3.8%.

 

[day_trippr]

At the age of 18 I was a freshman at the University of Denver and coming from Massachusetts with its traditional 21 yo drinking age the notion I could consume alcohol without looking over my shoulder was an intriguing benny. Tbh, I went to DU for the skiing - the EE degree was an excuse to ski my brains out for four years Having access to the Coors brewery in Golden was the cherry on top.

Yeah, it was 3.2, but it was legit alcohol three years before my original schedule

Cheers!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Low ABV beers have been the norm in the UK for a very long time. The first world war brought beers down to around 3% more than 100 years ago and we now have alcohol tax tiers that have caused a lot of breweries to adjust beers under 4% to 3.4%.

While I think a lot of these beers are/were better around 3.8%, a 3.4% beer can be very satisfying and have plenty of flavour. Adjust your mash process, choose your malts accordingly, and use a yeast that contributes flavour and doesn't strip out the malt. Imported US/NZ/Oz hops have become common in these ales now.

 

[An Ankoù]

Low ABV beers have been the norm in the UK for a very long time. The first world war brought beers down to around 3% more than 100 years ago and we now have alcohol tax tiers that have caused a lot of breweries to adjust beers under 4% to 3.4%.

While I think a lot of these beers are/were better around 3.8%, a 3.4% beer can be very satisfying and have plenty of flavour. Adjust your mash process, choose your malts accordingly, and use a yeast that contributes flavour and doesn't strip out the malt. Imported US/NZ/Oz hops have become common in these ales now.

Spot on @duncan_disorderly .
And don't imagine you can brew every style at this abv, standard and best bitters, English milds and stouts and some Scottish shilling ales are styles in their own rights and have little in common with some American interpretations. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter. Low abv bitter and mild are a product of both wartime austerity and heavy industry. A coal miner or steel worker might finish his shift by downing many pints (of 20 fluid ounces) to rehydrate himself. He'd be a ruin after 6 or more pints of 6½% abv on a regular basis.
Beers in the low 4s are commonplace: Draught Guinness at 4.2%, Pilsner Urquell at 4.3% for example. The strength follows the culture. In Britain we have a culture of volume drinking, in Belgium, by contrast, it's a sipping culture, but of stronger beers. At the end of the day we still want to achieve a warm, alcoholic glow and probably consume a similar amount of alcohol.
In the 70s and 80s mass produced British Beers were mostly a bit below 4%. This at a time when travel was becoming much more common. Young lads used to drinking a gallon of beer (8 pints of 20 fluid ounces) would suddenly encounter cheaper half-litres of beer in excess of 5% with predictable consequences. Hence the rise of the "lager lout".
I like Belgian beers, but I rarely drink them as I prefer the fuller stomach that several pints of ale or lager brings and don't feel I've had a proper drink until I've had that volume. I might substitute my final pint with a 33 of a nice trappist or abbey beer, though.
In fact I'm going to Belgium at the weekend so I'll have to show willing.

 

[Broothru]

At the age of 18 I was a freshman at the University of Denver and coming from Massachusetts with its traditional 21 yo drinking age the notion I could consume alcohol without looking over my shoulder was an intriguing benny. Tbh, I went to DU for the skiing - the EE degree was an excuse to ski my brains out for four years Having access to the Coors brewery in Golden was the cherry on top.

Yeah, it was 3.2, but it was legit alcohol three years before my original schedule

Cheers!

As a Naval Aviator, I had to quality (and then re-qual) in the hypobaric pressure chamber every 8-10 years. We would “pre-ox” breathing 100% O2 for :20 minutes at ambient pressure, then gradually experience reduced pressure up to the equivalent of 24,000’ pressure altitude.

Approximately 10,000’ PA is where most people will start feeling lightheaded and giddy. At 18,000’, barometric pressure is about one-half of sea level PA (500 millibars). At 24,000’ PA, we’d be instructed to remove our 100% O2 supply (one ‘lab rat’ at a time) under the close supervision of one of the chamber staff, and be instructed to perform simple tasks like an elementary math calculation or a dexterity test playing patty-cake with another trainee.

The Time of Useful Consciousness for an average 25-35 year old male in good health at 24,000’ PA is measured not in minutes but rather in seconds. The non-linear rule of thumb was for every 8,000’ of equivalent PA reduction, you’d experience the equivalent loss of function and inhibition as if you’d consumed a strong alcoholic drink. Twenty-four thousand feet PA was equivalent to having rapidly slammed down 3 stiff drinks.

Later that evening at the O’Club bar, we were all ordering 24,000’ of beer! At roughly 5,400’ PA in the foothills of the Rockies at Denver University, you had a permanent head start of a little over ⅔ of a beer!

 

[sibelman]

playing patty-cake with another trainee.

Thank you for this lovely image, @Broothru .

 

[Broothru]

Thank you for this lovely image, @Broothru .

I was kinda’ funny watching your fellow trainees laughing and giggling like schoolboys who couldn’t coordinate physical movements, or who would scribble illegibly on a pad of paper trying to solve 1+3-2=?.

The no-so-fun parts were the occasional trainee who might pass out until the chamber attendants got the O2 mask back on, or when a simulated rapid loss of pressurization (not an ‘explosive’ depressurization) from 10,000’ PA to 24,000’ PA was demo’d.

For pilots in tactical aircraft, there was a demo of something in excess of 35,000’ PA (can’t remember exactly how high) so they could experience Positive Pressure Breathing when O2 is forcibly delivered into the face mask to ensure absorption of oxygen into the bloodstream at reduced barometric pressure. That one was a one time only demo that didn’t require periodic requalification.

 

[sibelman]

Yeah, I know this is serious stuff, but the pattycake thing you mentioned led me to imagine not just U.S. Navy pilots, but Brits in pubs, Belgians in kroegs, playing pattycake. Back to low ABV brews.

 

[Broothru]

Yeah, I know this is serious stuff, but the pattycake thing you mentioned led me to imagine not just U.S. Navy pilots, but Brits in pubs, Belgians in kroegs, playing pattycake. Back to low ABV brews.

View attachment 860465

Yeah, that’s what we pretty much looked like…

 

[Gary25]

I usually do around 4% Carapils. I've also often combined it with around 4% flaked wheat, so I'm not sure how much of the foam stability is from the Carapils and how much from the flaked wheat, but the beers I've used that combo in have always had great foam stability.

The most recent beer I made also had an OG of 1.042, but it had an FG of 1.008, meaning 4.46% ABV, which I wouldn't consider low ABV at all but more "average" ABV since most of the best selling beers are in between 4% and 6% with most between 4.5% and 5.5%. With all that flaked rye, though, I imagine the FG will be quite a bit higher and you may indeed get an ABV of around 3.7% or 3.8%.

IMO a low ABV can stand higher % crystal etc. And higher ABV needs less. A flat % never made much sense to me.

But OG 1.042 isn't super low, either I'd be tempted to calculate the weight of 5% in a 1.052 beer and use that as a max. (I treat 1.052 ~ 5% ~ standard beer.)

Good idea. I’ll do this before making the next batch. Had not thought about the specialty malts vs ABV. Makes sense.

 

[Gary25]

I usually do around 4% Carapils. I've also often combined it with around 4% flaked wheat, so I'm not sure how much of the foam stability is from the Carapils and how much from the flaked wheat, but the beers I've used that combo in have always had great foam stability.

The most recent beer I made also had an OG of 1.042, but it had an FG of 1.008, meaning 4.46% ABV, which I wouldn't consider low ABV at all but more "average" ABV since most of the best selling beers are in between 4% and 6% with most between 4.5% and 5.5%. With all that flaked rye, though, I imagine the FG will be quite a bit higher and you may indeed get an ABV of around 3.7% or 3.8%.

My thinking is wheat may work better for foam (I use wheat in most of my beers); carapils better for body (I rarely use carapils). I purposely didn’t combine them here to see how carapils does on its own. Of course, I raised the ABV, so that unfortunately introduces another variable. I think a few more iterations are forthcoming.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I've talked to a few people about this as I'm starting to get into low abv brewing and I've shared a few of them. It seems everyone is fixated on brewing essentially non-alcoholic beer. And to me, NA beer tastes bad. Even the good ones don't taste like beer. They are beer-like, sure. But they aren't beer and leave me unsatisfied.

I've been brewing beers around 3%, shooting for 3.2% and they are every bit as satisfying as a 5% beer. I've been mashing warmer and shorter, using a bit more malts like Munich or Vienna, lowering the IBUs a tad, and using good yeast. It's just a theory of mine so far, but I feel the lower ABV just may let some of the more subtle yeast characteristics show a bit more. I currently have a 3.1% helles (Omega Mexican lager) and a 2.9% hefeweiss (W-68) on tap and I love them. Others have had them and said that if I wouldn't have told them they were 3% they would never have guessed. That makes me happy to hear.

I know others have been brewing lower abv beers, but I'm not talking cold mash (done that, don't like it) or 1.5% abv beers with 170F mash temps. I'm talking about the same exact styles we're all used to drinking, but a perfect in between abv. It's not really an extreme.

I think there's definitely a market for this as people want to cut back on their alcohol consumption but are put off by the price of NA beer and dissatisfied with it as well. Brewing 3.2 beer should be cheaper overall and can be every bit as flavorful and satisfying. Plus there are some historic styles that are under appreciated and unknown to much of the beer drinking public. I feel this is a largely untapped market, a perfect happy medium.

Maybe no one cares but I wanted to start a discussion for others who are doing the same, but not taking it to an extreme, just striving for a perfect happy medium while still achieving the same flavors.

Prost!

95% of my beers are 3.5-4%. Love them. Lots of commercial breweries here ( aus ) and craft breweries have one in their range. Im a big fan

 

[AlexKay]

I have made a bunch of beers at around 2%. It's a hassle, and some have been duds, but some have been eminently drinkable.

Some thoughts:

• Carapils is, in my opinion, marketing. I've never been convinced it added anything useful. There's one study I'm aware of that says it is foam-negative.
• A cold mash can add flavor and body without adding fermentables. I cold mash Briess MaltGems at ~1.5 pounds/gallon. After mashing, the not-so-spent grains make a really nice adjunct for a second (higher-alcohol) beer. That's a long day, though.
• The cold mash also leaves you with a ton of enzymes in the water, so the "actual" mash can proceed with a minimal grist that under normal circumstances wouldn't even self-convert. Some Munich, some Victory, some crystal. And then, of course, mash high.
• I'm generally pretty paranoid about food safety below 3%. I keep kegs for a relatively short amount of time, always cold, and use a picnic tap instead of hooking up to my draft system.
• I've been adding inulin at ~60 g/gal, to increase body without adding anything fermentable. I should really do a side-by-side to see if the effect is noticeable. It seems like it helps.

I also keep hop water on tap, and a sort-of-radler with equal parts hop water and 2% beer gets you down to 1%. It's pretty good!

 

[Broothru]

I have made a bunch of beers at around 2%. It's a hassle, and some have been duds, but some have been eminently drinkable.

Some thoughts:

• Carapils is, in my opinion, marketing. I've never been convinced it added anything useful. There's one study I'm aware of that says it is foam-negative.
• A cold mash can add flavor and body without adding fermentables. I cold mash Briess MaltGems at ~1.5 pounds/gallon. After mashing, the not-so-spent grains make a really nice adjunct for a second (higher-alcohol) beer. That's a long day, though.
• The cold mash also leaves you with a ton of enzymes in the water, so the "actual" mash can proceed with a minimal grist that under normal circumstances wouldn't even self-convert. Some Munich, some Victory, some crystal. And then, of course, mash high.
• I'm generally pretty paranoid about food safety below 3%. I keep kegs for a relatively short amount of time, always cold, and use a picnic tap instead of hooking up to my draft system.
• I've been adding inulin at ~60 g/gal, to increase body without adding anything fermentable. I should really do a side-by-side to see if the effect is noticeable. It seems like it helps.

I also keep hop water on tap, and a sort-of-radler with equal parts hop water and 2% beer gets you down to 1%. It's pretty good!

Have you acidified below pH 4.6 in the final beer? That should enough to protect against most (if not all) pathogens. So do higher hopping rates. A few months ago I had an email exchange with Brad Smith (BeerSmith, PhD Microbiologist, beer nerd) who basically said that there are no known pathogens that can exist in beer (‘normal’ beer with typical alcohol and hopping rates).

Of course bad things can flourish in dirty beer lines and taps, etc. But at pH levels <4.8 and constant cold chain handling at serving temperatures, it’s highly unlikely that any beer can make you sick.

Even with Dr. Smith’s reassurances, I still harbor the same concerns you’ve noted. It’s a shame because I’ve been trying to consume and brew more LA/NA beers. Even the best commercial ones are ‘average’ at best when it comes to taste, mouthfeel and drinkability.

 

[AlexKay]

Have you acidified below pH 4.6 in the final beer? That should enough to protect against most (if not all) pathogens. So do higher hopping rates. A few months ago I had an email exchange with Brad Smith (BeerSmith, PhD Microbiologist, beer nerd) who basically said that there are no known pathogens that can exist in beer (‘normal’ beer with typical alcohol and hopping rates).

Of course bad things can flourish in dirty beer lines and taps, etc. But at pH levels <4.8 and constant cold chain handling at serving temperatures, it’s highly unlikely that any beer can make you sick.

Even with Dr. Smith’s reassurances, I still harbor the same concerns you’ve noted. It’s a shame because I’ve been trying to consume and brew more LA/NA beers. Even the best commercial ones are ‘average’ at best when it comes to taste, mouthfeel and drinkability.

No known human pathogens in normal beer because of alcohol, pH, and hops. I believe there is general concern (among professionals) that NA’s two out of three is not sufficient to be safe. But yes indeed, I do acidify and I keep things cold.

As far as commercial NAs go, I quite like Athletic’s Run Wild and Untitled Art’s American Gold. They’re a cut above the rest. I’ve yet to come across any dark NA that’s even drinkable, though, mostly because of sweetness.

I’ve made some LA stouts that weren’t at all bad.

 

[Broothru]

No known human pathogens in normal beer because of alcohol, pH, and hops. I believe there is general concern (among professionals) that NA’s two out of three is not sufficient to be safe. But yes indeed, I do acidify and I keep things cold.

As far as commercial NAs go, I quite like Athletic’s Run Wild and Untitled Art’s American Gold. They’re a cut above the rest. I’ve yet to come across any dark NA that’s even drinkable, though, mostly because of sweetness.

I’ve made some LA stouts that weren’t at all bad.

Agree. Athletic has some good beers, focused on the keto crowd, and the Lagunitas NA IPA isn’t ‘bad’. But finding one that I can settle on as a go-to has been my white whale.

I had gotten all excited about cold mashing, but then life got in the way, and by the time I got back into re-establishing the pipeline, the concerns about the safety of NA/LA brewing reared its ugly head. Anyway, rekindling the idea. What downsides and what successes have you had, and what advice can you share with a noob?

 

[bwible]

I am sure I have said this before in other posts, but it is one of my brewing books that I was most disappointed in. I have looked back through it, and I just don't see what others see.

I’ve been way more disappointed with several others.

First is that one called “Hooray for Beer!”. I got that for free with my AHA renewal and I’m so glad I didn’t pay money for that.

Another one is the Wood and Beer book which talks alot about barrels and foeders but offers absolutely nothing useful - not even a recipe. Unfortunately, that one I did pay money for.

The Eclectic IPA book was another one I gave away.

When I first got Designing Great Beers around 1999 or so that was one of the best brewing books out there at the time. I learned a ton out of that book. I carried it everywhere. My first copy was destroyed just from use. It was folded, bent, stained, dog earred and half the pages were seperated and falling out. Most of the other books on my shelf look brand new. I had to buy Designing Great Beers again. I still look at it once in awhile.

 

[bwible]

Maybe that is where my expectations of the book were out of line with reality. I do agree that we tend to underestimate the impact of the alcohol in beers. I don't gravitate to Quads, Imperial Stouts or Double IPAs just because I want to get drunk.

I tend to be looking for the higher abv stuff in the cold weather. I’m brewing old ales and imperial stouts and barleywines to have over the winter when its cold. I agree there is much more to these than just getting drunk. They’ve been some of my favorites the last few years, especially anything barrel aged.

I think I’m looking for the lighter and lower abv stuff in the summer. And yeah, I’ve tried brewing them. Its something I’d like to do again when thinking about beers to make for next summer.

The big breweries are focused more on reducing calories and carbs but still keeping alcohol. Michelob Ultra says 95 calories, 2.6 carbs, 4.2%. Miller Lite, the original is 96 calories, 3.2 carbs, 4.2%. For comparison Miller High Life is 141 calories, 12.6 carbs, and 4.6%

Getting the carbs out is a different animal and its where they use the carb reducing enzyme glyco whatever it is. But carbs and calories seem to be a different focus than just brewing lower abv.

 

[bwible]

They had 3.2 beer at the enlisted men’s club on a couple of different navy bases where I was assigned in the 80s. I was 21 or 22 at the time and still quite a few years from starting my journey down the beer rabbit hole. I remember some of the guys complaining and they made it obvious they didn’t think 3.2 beer was a good thing. But I don’t remember much else about it - good, bad, or who made it.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I dont really do anything different for 3.5-4%. Even rice lagers around 3.5%, I dont mind the light body at all. Ambers and APA's as well, i think they work fine.

Going lower, i used to do a lot of mild ales around 3%, really enjoyed them. Using Maris Otter etc, i didnt have issues with them being too light in body.

 

[Gary25]

My thinking is wheat may work better for foam (I use wheat in most of my beers); carapils better for body (I rarely use carapils). I purposely didn’t combine them here to see how carapils does on its own. Of course, I raised the ABV, so that unfortunately introduces another variable. I think a few more iterations are forthcoming.

Quick update on my rye ale. Made a second batch with carapils added and would say the beer was about the same as without. Perhaps a bit better on head retention and body, but nothing remarkable. A have another batch substituting wheat for carapils.

Here’s what I’d like to try next: a low alcohol yeast. I’m thinking White Labs 618 NA All Day yeast (Saccharomycodes ludwigii). Can’t find out much about it outside the White Labs website.

My preference would be to make a ~3% ABV beer vs a .5% ABV beer and save the pathogen challenges for a future NA beer. I’m curious if the final beer might come out sweet/cloying if it has too many unfermented sugars from the 618 yeast. The tech sheet says 2-5% alcohol tolerance, so I’m thinking it will reach 3% with the same recipe (OG around 1.040). I have been using Fermentis S-05. Thoughts? Anyone use this yeast?

 

[Gary25]

Putting WLP618 in Beersmith, it puts the final beer ABV at 1.3%. Changing to a typical 152 degree mash gets it up to 1.5% ABV. Lower than I’d like, but perhaps worth a try. I’ll definitely check the pH of the finished beer and add some acid if necessary…