Brewing Saison

[Protos]

Well, the BJCP classification has its merits and flaws. From one side, there's a total mess with English styles, from another, German styles are categorised quite well (albeit incomplete).
Difficulties with many categories arose just because many of those styles - like Saisons - were already dead or dying in their native cultures. And the Founding Fathers who created the BJCP styleguide weren't professional historians, after all, to have the full scope of foreign brewing traditions. I think it would be utterly chauvinistic to state that the urge to categorize the world is a unique American thing (it's not) BJCP prevailed rather because the others just didn't care to codify their brewing heritage, letting it vanish. No wonder, that some modern "rebirth" projects in Europe are grounded on the flawed BJCP styleguides rather than on local traditions, that have almost vaned without leaving much knowledge behind. Luckily, the trend is changing, and more thorough and fumdamental researches in local beer history start to emerge. Patterson, Garshol, Krennmeier, Mulder, Verberg and many others. That's the future of the trade, I hope.

It's not unlike in Australia, you know, where much of what is now proudly toted as "authentic millenia-old living Aboriginal culture" is actually mere modern interpretations taken from Western ethnographic records of 1850s-1930s, because the original chain of passing traditions had been cut decades before the current surge of interest to the subject.
In one word, BJCP has got its messy parts, but without it the mess would be much worse.

Disclaimer: I am not an American but I am a historian, so could be a bit opinionated. BJCP is essentially about brewing history, and as an attempt to draw a preliminary non-scientific practical sketch of the world beer heritage I deem it high, even despite its obvious and serious flaws.

 

[Miraculix]

The problem is not that they try to put everything into boxes, the problem is that so many people pretend that these bjcp boxes are relevant to the whole world. To my knowledge this bjcp stuff was invented to create a framework for competitions and had not much to do with the urge to preserve historical knowledge about different beers.

So imo, everybody please continue your bjcp categorisation based competitions but please leave the rest of the world alone with it. Every time I read a sentence like "But according to bjcp category xyz this beer should be..... to be according to style", I puke a little.

 

[Protos]

Yep, BJCP (and BA Guidelines which are the same) was created with a specific (and, actually, very humble and narrow) task in mind. Which it probably serves well on a practical level: on competitions, you have a specific category for any of your beery creations as long as you brew Pitch Black, Simply Black, Dark-Brown, Light-Brown, Red, Tan, Golden, Yellow, White or Slightly Whitish IPAs.
"Vulgarisation" of the styles you are describing above is inevitable when there's the single and sole printed source of structurized information. That happens not only to beer styles, the principle is universal for any field of culture studies: if something is written and if there's no written alternatives, it gradually becomes an axiome and transforms into the common wisdom even if it's wrong.
When the emerging generation of beer historians (historians, not other professionals-turned-brewers) write a new scientific revised comprehensive classification of beers, things will be quite different. But they haven't yet.
Meanwhile, the Dupont-like conception of Saison is getting weight as an established axiome, as a tradition in its own right, I [not really] afraid. As well as the "Northern" and "Southern" Browns, and the whole cute "ESB" Category. From the view of Cultural History, there's no much sin in it - it's just a part of the ongoing cultural process: transforming old styles and retro-inventing new, whatever's the historical accuracy...

 

[Gus_13]

That is really good to hear, I really have to get one going then, probably the next beer after the one I brew this weekend. You meant Imperial Yeast Rustic two posts above, right?

That's right Imperial Rustic and Wyeast 3726 are supposedly the same (Blaugies) strain. I believe Omega Saison II is the same as well. I have not brewed with it though.

 

[Miraculix]

That's right Imperial Rustic and Wyeast 3726 are supposedly the same (Blaugies) strain. I believe Omega Saison II is the same as well. I have not brewed with it though.

Brilliant, thanks. My next brew after the one today will be 30% spelt flour, 70% pilsner, 25 IBUs with noble hops samll late additions, if any at all, OG about 1.04, open fermented the first 3 days with one pack of Rustic at room temperature, starting at about 23-25C, from there on no temperature control. That should do it.

 

[Gus_13]

Noticed the same. It was like revelation: Bretted Saison came out non-phenolic, non-bretty, but full of entirely new flavours.
Probably, that's the way the authentic traditional Saison was meant to be (as de Baets says in the article above).

(Still I like the "modern" non-bretted phenolic version more, to be honest).

The first time I saw it was with the WLP670. I was like wait, where did the Saison-y pepper and spice go? Then it was just like white wine notes and lovely. C2C is fantastic for that as well.

I too really like the "clean" Saisons a lot. I don't know which I prefer but when I pop a bottle of mine carbonated to the correct levels and somewhere in the 4.2-5% range, it can be one of the most refreshing drinks. I just wish more commercial breweries brewed them in that range instead of going 7+%. At first I used to blame that on most not knowing that it was a Diastatic yeast so they would just do normal starting gravities. But even now with the knowledge out there, I still see "Super Saisons" a lot when I travel.

 

[Gus_13]

Brilliant, thanks. My next brew after the one today will be 30% spelt flour, 70% pilsner, 25 IBUs, OG about 1.04, open fermented the first 3 days with one pack of Rustic at room temperature, starting at about 23-25C, from ther on no temperature regulation. That should do it.

That sounds like a perfect plan. I love that OG of 1.040. MOST of mine don't go over 1.042ish. For some reason when I do my Rye Saison I give it a little more gas to 1.046 but rarely do I shoot for over 1.050 for mine.

 

[Miraculix]

That sounds like a perfect plan. I love that OG of 1.040. MOST of mine don't go over 1.042ish. For some reason when I do my Rye Saison I give it a little more gas to 1.046 but rarely do I shoot for over 1.050 for mine.

I am a big fan of crushable but flavourful beers. I have no idea why there are so many higher abv saisons out there but my guess is that they do not have too much to do with it's origin anymore, which should be somewhere between 2% and 5%, depending on the time of the year and the person it was brewed for.

That's one of the reasons I really like british bitters so much for, they mainly also play in this abv range as well.

 

[Gus_13]

I am a big fan of crushable but flavourful beers. I have no idea why there are so many higher abv saisons out there but my guess is that they do not have too much to do with it's origin anymore, which should be somewhere between 2% and 5%, depending on the time of the year and the person it was brewed for.

That's one of the reasons I really like british bitters so much, they mainly also play in this abv range as well.

I'm known as the Saison and Bitter guy lol. For the same reasons. I like flavor, but I also like quaffable beer I can have a couple pints of or pop a 750 and easily drink it. If you are on FB, we have a great Saison, BdG and Farmhouse group I'm a mod of. Lots of great homebrewers and pros talk on there. A lot of us came from Milk the Funk because we were brewing more Saison than specifically sour beer. I also mod an English beer group called British Ale Appreciation Society that hasn't taken off but still a good bit of info and sharing on there.

 

[Protos]

I have no idea why there are so many higher abv saisons out there

Probably, because of the higher attenuation. I have brewed different versions of Saisons: from 3% ABV to 8%. I liked my light Saisons flavourwise, but they felt too watery because of the very high attenuation, so after many trial brews I settled my "House Saison" at 6% ABV with 25% Rye. I just don't like thin beers irrespective of alcohol content, so maybe many others too prefer some more gravity in Saisons. It's not about alcohol, rather about mouthfeel.

 

[Gus_13]

Probably, because of the higher attenuation. I have brewed different versions of Saisons: from 3% ABV to 8%. I liked my light Saisons flavourwise, but they felt too watery because of the very high attenuation, so after many trial brews I settled my "House Saison" at 6% ABV with 25% Rye. I just don't like thin beers irrespective of alcohol content, so maybe many others too prefer some more gravity in Saisons. It's not about alcohol, rather about mouthfeel.

I think that could be it too. But I fight that with higher carbonation for perceived body if I don't use wheat, rye, spelt or oats. Even my kegged Saisons are served around 3.5 vols. Built my keezer to handle that setup lol. 15 ft lines are no joke. And I run flow control rototaps on that and my dedicated Hefe taps.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm known as the Saison and Bitter guy lol. For the same reasons. I like flavor, but I also like quaffable beer I can have a couple pints of or pop a 750 and easily drink it. If you are on FB, we have a great Saison, BdG and Farmhouse group I'm a mod of. Lots of great homebrewers and pros talk on there. A lot of us came from Milk the Funk because we were brewing more Saison than specifically sour beer. I also mod an English beer group called British Ale Appreciation Society that hasn't taken off but still a good bit of info and sharing on there.

Great! I just requested entry to the UK group. Can you wrtie me the saison group name as well please?

 

[Miraculix]

Probably, because of the higher attenuation. I have brewed different versions of Saisons: from 3% ABV to 8%. I liked my light Saisons flavourwise, but they felt too watery because of the very high attenuation, so after many trial brews I settled my "House Saison" at 6% ABV with 25% Rye. I just don't like thin beers irrespective of alcohol content, so maybe many others too prefer some more gravity in Saisons. It's not about alcohol, rather about mouthfeel.

Maybe also false expectations play a role. When I think of a saison, I expect it to be kind of "thin" or light in taste, except for the yeast expression of course. But body-wise there should not be much imo. And then, as it has been already said, higher end of carbonation fits perfectly for beers like these. Together with great head retention, this makes this thin bodied beer work for me.

My bitters are on the lower side of carbonation and I do not like them with more carbonation than neccessary. For Saisons on the other hand, it is probably the other way around for me. And afaik, this is also how they are traditionally made.

 

[Gus_13]

Great! I just requested entry to the UK group. Can you wrtie me the saison group name as well please?

See if this will work. Never tried it like this haha.

Saison, Bière de Garde, & Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society

 

[Miraculix]

See if this will work. Never tried it like this haha.

Saison, Bière de Garde, & Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society

Works! Cheers!

 

[Gus_13]

Works! Cheers!

nice! Welcome in! The British group definitely needs some work. But I'll be posting more in there soon myself. Mike from Zebulon posts a lot in there as he brews his historical beers.

 

[shoreman]

I’m in the 3-5% zone for my saisons as well - I always add rye and/or wheat to my saisons and that seems to help the body out. I try not to add extra sugar at these ranges. I like dry beers though.

 

[BulletsNBeers]

Hello everyone, I’m looking for any info on saisons. I have not tasted or brewed one before but they look good from online description, but words don’t have flavor. Any pros, cons, or tips are appreciated. I am an intermediate all grain brew.

Saison yeast is gonna munch through everything. Mine usually end up at 1.002 to 1.000. So you don’t need as much grain and since you have less grain your mash efficiency is going to go up. Make them in the summer w/ no temp control. One of the easiest styles to make! Cheers

 

[GoodTruble]

Saison is usually a simple recipe, with the yeast providing the flavor. If you have the patience, I've always gotten good results with Wyeast 3724. Yes, it stalls, but it eventually finishes to consistently good results. I've also gotten good results with Omega Saisonstein, but it can be more temperamental.

 

[TheKveiking]

I recently brewed a batch with Lallemand Farmhouse. I think I am pretty happy with it. It seems to have more character than Belle. I have bottles of the same recipe made with WLP565. I like the WLP565 version a bit better. The Farmhouse batch seems a bit sweet/heavy for a Saison (which I can probably address by adding some sugar to my recipe), and I want to try pushing Farmhouse a little warmer to see if that pushes some more character. I pitched at 68F and let it free rise to 76F over the first few days. I might also try Farmhouse in a 4%-ish Saison.

@TheKveiking: I have been brewing several batches of Saison over the past couple years. For a simple beer, there is a good amount of flexibility. I generally aim for around a 1.055 OG. I have been using German Pils for the majority of the grain bill. I like the "farmhouse" idea so I have been including around 15% of a grain like Rye or Spelt (I am not sure if Spelt is any different than wheat).

I find that around 5% to 10% of a character malt like Aromatic or Munich gives a touch of color and flavor. I am not sure how Dupont gets the color and grain character in their beer since it is supposed to be 100% Pils.

Some people like to add sugar to a Saison. I normally don't because I find that most Saison yeasts produce a crisp beer and I really don't want to push my Saisons into the 8% range. They already tend to creep up in ABV given the typical Saison yeast attenuation.

I have been using Hersbrucker for many of my Belgians. I liked the character of Hersbrucker so I picked up a 1 lb bag. The bag I got was 2.2% aa, so instead of throwing 3 oz to get some IBUs I have been using Northern Brewer as a bittering hop. I have made and had some nice Saisons with hops like Citra and Lemon Drop.

Nice I was planning on try to do a peppery saison this spring, as I can easy heat my fermenter storage to high temps. This seemed like a very drinkable style and some thing different from all the pale ales up here in the northwest US. Sorry for the late reply military takes away some time, as well as the vague in my area I have not found a commercial or home brew example of the style.

 

[IslandLizard]

I was planning on try to do a peppery saison this spring,

You can add some coarsely cracked pepper corns at the very end of the boil.

Traditionally brew recipes call for Grains of Paradise, which is also known as Poor Man's Pepper, as that was all that was available to the common man (and breweries) as real pepper was really (no, really!) expensive (coming from the Far East) and very sought after.

Now, in today's world, Grains of Paradise are hard to obtain, and will run $6-10 for a small 2-3 oz bottle (e.g., Whole Foods).
Use pepper, it works like a charm, you wouldn't know or notice the difference.

 

[TheKveiking]

Also, if you're worried about cross-contamination, Lallemand has their new non-STA1 saison strain that you could try. Selectively bred, not GMO, if that's a concern for you.

I was only worried because I’m new to really any yeast other than Ale strains.

You can add some coarsely cracked pepper corns at the very end of the boil.

Traditionally brew recipes call for Grains of Paradise, which is also known as Poor Man's Pepper, as that was all that was available to the common man (and breweries) as real pepper was really (no, really!) expensive (coming from the Far East) and very sought after.

Now, in today's world, Grains of Paradise are hard to obtain, and will run $6-10 for a small 2-3 oz bottle (e.g., Whole Foods).
Use pepper, it works like a charm, you wouldn't know or notice the difference.

Really! That’s an awesome snip of history. Funny enough my home brew store carries a bag a Grains of Paradise for $4ish. Always wonder what flavor they imparted.

 

[Gus_13]

Really! That’s an awesome snip of history. Funny enough my home brew store carries a bag a Grains of Paradise for $4ish. Always wonder what flavor they imparted.

I get more citrus in GoP than I do pepper. But I too was able to get some pretty cheap. I like using it in Saison and in Witbier too. One of my best beers last year was a Belgian Wit with GoP, coriander, and grapefruit peel.

 

[homebrudoc]

Yeah, leave it to me to try to post some help and never come back to a thread........I mentioned that using iodophor will help identify if your equipment is "clean"........

How so?
I have a bottle and have never used it, I've always stuck with StarSan.
Doesn't the iodophor stain if you get it on your hands or clothes?

Iodophor combines with starches to form a blue molecule. We used to use it to determine mash duration for starch conversion. If you use an occasional iodophor rinse for sanitizing, if there is any wort / beer left on equipment, it will turn blue and then you will blush and wonder how you've gotten away without a contaminated (STA1) batch or why you continue to have contaminated (STA1) batches.

hope this helps
homebrudoc

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Yeah, leave it to me to try to post some help and never come back to a thread........I mentioned that using iodophor will help identify if your equipment is "clean"........



Iodophor combines with starches to form a blue molecule. We used to use it to determine mash duration for starch conversion. If you use an occasional iodophor rinse for sanitizing, if there is any wort / beer left on equipment, it will turn blue and then you will blush and wonder how you've gotten away without a contaminated (STA1) batch or why you continue to have contaminated (STA1) batches.

hope this helps
homebrudoc

good to know, thx

 

[mashpaddled]

I get more citrus in GoP than I do pepper. But I too was able to get some pretty cheap. I like using it in Saison and in Witbier too. One of my best beers last year was a Belgian Wit with GoP, coriander, and grapefruit peel.

Yeah grains of paradise is more of like white pepper plus cardamom than black pepper.

 

[Gus_13]

Yeah grains of paradise is more of like white pepper plus cardamom than black pepper.

I can see that. Definitely the white pepper part. The stuff i have is for sure citrusy/fruity as well. Haven't gotten cardamom out of it but I'm sure it all differs.

 

[Miraculix]

That's right Imperial Rustic and Wyeast 3726 are supposedly the same (Blaugies) strain. I believe Omega Saison II is the same as well. I have not brewed with it though.

It is in the fermenter!

As predicted, very simple: 70% Pilsener, 30 Spelt flour. OG 1.41, 27 IBUs, 30g Mittelfrüh @10 minutes and the rest of the IBUs from Perle as 45 minute addition. 75 minute mash @ 65C, chilled down to 25 c and pitched directly from the pouch (I love Imperial for this). 12 hours later, HIGH Kräusen. I left the fermenter open (Speidel, nice big opening) and just covered it with a pice of thin polyester fabric to keep insects out. I will put an airlock on it, once it significantly slowed down. I placed the fermenter next to a heater, should be about 25 C there.

I was a bit suprised when opening the yeast pouch. The smell was not like I expected it to be, it was more like a Hefeweizen than a Saison, a bit of bubblegum, banana und clove but none of the lemon/pepper that I am after. Today, smelling the fermenting beer, totally different picture. The active fermentation goes much more into the direction that I want

 

[Miraculix]

Maaaaaan this smells INCREDIBLE now! The smell comming out of the fermenter is 100% what I had in mind! Lemon, ginger, pepper. AWESOME!!! I WANT TO DRINK IT NOOOOW!!!!!!!!!

 

[monkeymath]

Maaaaaan this smells INCREDIBLE now! The smell comming out of the fermenter is 100% what I had in mind! Lemon, ginger, pepper. AWESOME!!! I WANT TO DRINK IT NOOOOW!!!!!!!!!

Not to be a party pooper, but I generally find the smell coming from the fermenter to be only loosely related to the aroma of the final beer.

Moreover, if it's coming out of your fermentor, that also means it's out of your beer and gone. So what you're smelling are volatile compounds which are driven off. Maybe some of those are present in abundance and will make it into the final beer, although probably to a lesser extent, while others will be gone entirely.

(My fermentation chamber currently smells like fruity eggs, by the way. Hope my pilsner won't )